Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Gents,

I recommend a study of "Das deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg" Part 2, only available in German laguage, published by Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt, Freiburg, via DVA. There you'll find a lot of informations (military and political ones) regarding Seelöwe, including links to primary sources.

Some thoughts from my side: the are a lot of publishers around, which had no thought about German language, but publishing about GAF during the BoB. IMHO, sounds like writing something about the RAF during this period without understanding any English...

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

So who are they? Please name them.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

IMHO its very much worth to read the following at the numbered usaf historical studies page:

Operation SEA LION and the Role of the Luftwaffe in the Planned Invasion of England, by Karl Klee (1955).

http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/numbered_studies/468155.pdf
http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/numbered_studies/468156.pdf

Its a lot of text, but the German decisionmaking progress is very throughly covered, and during all the time the reluctance and hesitation is quite clear in the HC, especially that of Hitlers. One particularly interesting part from very early in the Battle, IIRC in July, where the records already show that perhaps it would be the best to prepeare the whole Seelöwe stuff in spring 1941. And, even during August, there was quite clearly no useable and detailed plan for an invasion, the navy and army still could not agree on the basic details.

Much has been written in the past nearly 70 years about the Battle, about the intents the progress made, but IMHO the real thing is how the German HC saw the matter back in the summer of 1940. And this is very well detailed in this study.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Prepare for a long list... :D

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Thanks Kurfürst!
This material is of great interest to me. Thank you for posting the links as a very useful contribution to the discussion regarding the matter.
Some other parts of the discussion here I do on the other hand not enjoy as it is not focused on the matter presented in the first posting.
Cheers
Göran Larsson

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Even the worst landings go well up to that point!

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Wow awesome material so far guys. Great way to start.

Much thanks and much appreciated!

If I have any more questions or concerns I'll be sure to drop in a few lines, you all seem to really know your stuff, or at least know of people who know their stuff.

:)

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

..have a look at Tooze ('Wages of Destruction - the making and breaking of the Nazi economy') while you're about it...it's cropped up a few times in recent dicussions here.

his basic premise (roughly summarised) is that Hitler launched world war because Germany was economically weak both in production & resources, and while he was able to over-run militarily weak neighbours, when it came to crossing the Channel , " the basic preconditions for the defeat of Britain were never met...the task of assembling the naval & aerial forces necessary to subdue the British ..were beyond Germany's industrial resources.."

" In Churchill's high flown rhetoric the clash between the Luftwaffe and the RAF took on a decisive turning-point in the war..in reality it was an extremely one-sided affair.."

of course the fact that the British couldn't be eliminated was crucial for the outcome of the war (in the West) since it gave the US somewhere to park their bomber & fighter fleets & provided a springboard for the re-occupation of Europe...therein lies the prime importance of the 'so-called' Battle of Britain - the same outcome whether it was ever fought or not...

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

I am rapidly loosing any faith in Mr. Tooze's book when I see quotes likes this - I cannot help but to note that he has some sort of pre-conception, and a bit of nationalism as well. I mean, 'militarily weak neighbours' - like France..? And what was 'extremely one sided' when the defender's losses practically matched that of the attackers (ie. ca 1600 RAF planes vs ca 1700 LW planes lost to all causes in the Battle)

It is beyond discussion of course that Germany did not have the naval resources in 1940 that would be required to for an invasion - and such cannot be created in a couple of months. As for the air forces, its debatable, but what now begins to appear to me as the standard Tooze nonsense about some sort of 'agricultural Germany' :confused: in the 1930s that lacks the industrial resources.. the political decision certainly was not taken to ramp up production - probably it was a mistake and would be needed to be made, not waiting until 1943 - still it seems it was sufficient to cover the losses. What amazes me that Tooze manages to ignore the political decisions and the plain industrial capacity at the time. As far as military matters, I don't think he has much weight in this subject - simply not being his field of study - as some comments about the 'heavy cruiser' Scharnhorst reveal..

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

In 2009 terms the ''Battle of Britain'' may seem over the top since no German troops invaded this country, those whoes own countries were occupied may also find the description too dramatic. But to those of my fathers generation they remember post Dunkirk as a time when Britain was on its knees. The Press had built up the German war machine as unbeatable, and people had visions of thousands of German paratroopers landing, being quickly supported by thousands of troops and tanks from an invasion fleet. Amongst all this the voice of Churchill and his speeches were a major part of keeping morale high, plus the visible actions of Fighter Command albeit with the Press hyping up claims of Luftwaffe losses. In one article a soldier in training noted in his barracks there were posters of a German paratrooper looking like superman loaded with weapons with the caption 'Make Sure He Dies For His Country'. The guy said rather than inspiring confidece it was demoralising to think he could be facing such a foe.
Had the Air battle Over Britain ended in an outright victory for the Luftwaffe their would have been no subsequent bases for the US forces to operate from. Whatever is now seen as the outcome of summer 1940 ie victory of Fighter command, defeat of the Luftwaffe or a stalemate the events laid the basis for the chain of events leading to the ultimate Allied victory.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

..agreed; I've said no different - the 'so-called' comes from the German historian already quoted here..

France as 'militarily weak' ? - on the basis that they capitulated within six weeks and that their military doctrines/aircraft industry (etc etc ) belonged essentially to another age & had only recently embarked on modernisation, yes....

perhaps not so weak insofar as the Luftwaffe in particular sustained considerable losses over-running them - not to mention destroying the infrastructure that would be needed to fight the Battle of Britain..

No doubt the British would have caved in to, but for the Channel. And Churchill's rhetoric has come to represent the battle, when really it was designed, as you say, for internal consumption ..and the Americans. In terms of industrial production German victories in 1940 were significant for the decisions they precipitated on the other side of the Atlantic, long before December 1941. The British were to inherit nearly 11,000 American a/c before then, not to mention ten times as much oil as the Germans received from Rumania

but while the Luftwaffe inflicted losses on the RAF that appear high during the battle, British production -on its own- was higher still...

what Tooze is saying essentially is that seen retrospectively the Germans hadn't got a hope of launching invasion.

I think that what some German viewpoints of the 'battle' express is that in terms of control of the air - a prerequisite for invasion - then that attempt could only be half-hearted at best......

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

I've never read Tooze but the gist of his overall message, as it was explained to me here, is nothing new.


If that is his statement, it is very accurate.

Who can dispute that compared to Germany, France was militarily weak in leadership, forming a national strategy, planning, communications, command and control, training, combined arms, use of airpower, and tactical employment of their forces.

You might be thinking about the paper strength of the French war machine, circa 1940, but that tells us very little about their true capabilities. And I'd rather not get into endless debates about the technical effectiveness of weapon systems, because that was the least of their problems.




Except that German flyers shot down over the U.K did not often return to fight another day. A very long period of time was/is required to properly train and replace experienced pilots and air crews.


Cover the losses when ... which factories and training bases could make this happen in 1940?

Never mind the calendar length of the air campaign, the loss rate per sortie is what counts. It's not realistic that the Luftwaffe could continue losing men and equipment at that pace and still maintain the size of their air fleets for anything but a short period.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

So the best thing to do would be to read the book and, if you disagree with what he says, follow up on the extensive source notes. Anything we say here will inevitably be a simplifiaction of what is a complex and carefully constructed argument made by Tooze.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

I absolutely agree with Nick Beale here. As I said in another thread I do not know Tooze´s Wages of Destruction but I know other works of him and while he might not be an expert in the area of military operations he definitely has an expertise when economic history is in concern, especially when economic situation of Germany between wars is discussed. This thread has convinced me to move Wages of Destruction to the top of my "must-read-books" list.

Jan

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

..absolutely...and if you can get through the 'pure' economics of the inter-war period (say from about P150 onwards), there's quite a bit of Luftwaffe content; Junkers take-over, procurement & development of the Me 210/He177, Speer & armaments production..to highlight just a few areas I've browsed - well it is 600+pages...Kurfürst will no doubt enjoy Tooze's description of the late Bf 109G variants on P504; " a horrible collection of lumps & bumps.."

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

People should never go to far from their expertise when they write a book, their mistakes will detract from the main thesis.

Can't say I am looking forward to reading my copy, but it at least promises to be an interesting read. I doubt wether I will share all his conclusions though.

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

..I winced when I saw him quoting from Scutts 'Bf 109; the operational record'...just seems a little incongruous for such a 'blockbuster'

very good with the bigger picture though...the 'myth-busting' comes thick & fast...

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Here's a worthwhile reference that hasn't been mentioned yet:

"Hitler on the Doorstep - Operation 'Sea Lion': The German Plan to Invade Britain, 1940" by Egbert Kieser, Naval Institute Press, 1997, ISBN: 1-557750-390-7, hardcover, 287 pages

A thorough and detailed look at the many phases and aspects of this operation from the German point of view. The book includes copies of Hitler's directives 16 and 17 (issued on Jul 16 and Aug 1 1940) for the preparation of a landing operation and the conduct of the air and sea war against England. It was interesting to discover that 'Sea Lion' was never officially called off -- it was in limbo right up until D-Day.

Did the Germans have any real intention of invading Britain? According to the author, the answer was both "yes" and "no" -- it would have depended on when and whom you asked. The concluding chapter summarises why the operation failed, and what the grave consequences of that failure were.

Leon Venter

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

Does it mention elusive Operation Haifisch, which probably is even more interesting than Seeloewe?

Re: Need assistance: Role of the Luftwaffe/Germany in the Battle of Britain?
 

OK so they cost me about $65 CDN together buy I got what appears to be the most exhaustive (primary source) account of the events from a predominantly British perspective but should offer some insight from the German point of view.

"The Rise and Fall of the German Air Force, 1933-1945" published in 1948, from the national archives.

"Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945" by Williamson Murray should offer a better perspective from the German end.

Thanks to the person who directed me to these sources.

This should get me started seeing as I've got a reputable primary and secondary source, in addition to many others, that should provide me with an account from both sides.

I'd like to thank everyone else on here for all your help, discussion, and suggestions.

Much obliged.

PS. I am taking a look into the Tooze book as well.