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-   -   Jewish airmen in WWII (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1756)

Franek Grabowski 19th July 2005 20:48
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Finally back home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Boak
You really believe that without the front-line troops of the Soviet Army, Hitler would never have started the war?
Yes, it is obvious from his writings and speaches that he would not ever start anything like that being not secured on one front.

Quote:
I can only presume that you are referring to the Nazi-Soviet pact and the joint invasion of Poland, but that only draws a specific line in history.
It is not a specific line in history but a strict co-operation between Germany and the SU that lasted for more than a year, and which also affected British defensive potential - see CBAF strikes for example.

Quote:
To suggest that Hitler had not already started warfare in Europe ignores his actions in Austria and Czechoslovakia, or his plans for later, elsewhere.
Those operations cannot be considered warfare, since Hitler secured peace with the West by diplomatic means. Indeed aggressive movement but not leading to a war.

Quote:
Had Poland agreed to the passage of Soviet troops, the Munich agreement and the betrayal of Czechoslovakia may never have happened.
Had Poland agreed to the passage of Soviet troops, they would not left Poland. I cannot understand, how people in the West can be so ignorant, not to understand so simple Russian tricks!

Quote:
Perhaps then Hitler's ambitions could have been curbed, but after that failure the war was inevitable. It was the failure of the "West" here that encouraged Stalin to come to his agreement with the Nazis, which no one on any side expected to last.
Munich was in 1938 but the SU was considered a threat for the world peace much earlier. Actually it was the country expected to start the second world war.

G. Warrener 26th July 2005 12:51
Re: Jewish? airwoman in WWII
 
Here's another link

http://www.drk.de/generalsekretariat/stauffenberg.htm

;-) Graham

Franek Grabowski 26th July 2005 21:00
Re: Jewish? airwoman in WWII
 
Oh, yes! Old poor Melitta! nonetheless I am wondering how many of those Jews are made up. I am fresh after a talk to a family of a Polish few, who was listed a Jew. They were much surprised to hear that their family is considered Jewish!

G. Warrener 23rd August 2005 17:54
Re: Jewish? airwoman in WWII
 
Quote:
They were much surprised to hear that their family is considered Jewish!
Hello Frantek

Being a Jew is passed down the female lineage. If there was a Jewish woman in the ancestry - then from a Jewish viewpoint - they are 'Jews' even if they do not know it.

And I suspect that many neither know nor care to know that.


Graham

Franek Grabowski 23rd August 2005 18:52
Re: Jewish? airwoman in WWII
 
A Jew is not going to a church every sunday. ;)

G. Warrener 23rd August 2005 22:45
Re: Jewishness
 
Hello

I omitted to say that there should be some continuity in the female lineage - a lady who produced only sons - stops the line.

And naturally Jews differentiate between practising & non-practising Jews.

Lilly Litvak e.g. a typical Jewish Lithuanian surname - but was she aware of it??

As for going to Church on Sunday - well what a silly suggestion !

Still.....
Churches are the houses of worship for a errant Jewish sect, whose central figure never denied his origins - even if his claims are accepted / or denied.

It's all a question of mindset, faith, laws perceived and obeyed, or rituals followed - but it's no excuse for murder.

Graham

Franek Grabowski 25th August 2005 03:50
Re: Jewishness
 
Hello

Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Warrener
I omitted to say that there should be some continuity in the female lineage - a lady who produced only sons - stops the line.
Oh, the boys are Jewish but they cannot reproduce Jewes. They are the end of the line.

Quote:
And naturally Jews differentiate between practising & non-practising Jews.
This is not that clear. A rather complicated issue, especially as there is nobody in kind of Pope there, someone who makes a general interpretation of holly books.

Quote:
Lilly Litvak e.g. a typical Jewish Lithuanian surname - but was she aware of it??
She was Lidya Litvyak - I am not sure if Litvyak and Litvak is the same name but if it was Jewish, I am certain she was awared of it. By the way, Litvak is used as a synonymous of a Russian Jew.

Quote:
As for going to Church on Sunday - well what a silly suggestion !
Why, I do not see religious Jewes there?

Quote:
Still.....
Churches are the houses of worship for a errant Jewish sect, whose central figure never denied his origins - even if his claims are accepted / or denied.
You are simplifying the whole picture.

Quote:
It's all a question of mindset, faith, laws perceived and obeyed, or rituals followed - but it's no excuse for murder.
I have not murdered anybody! At least as yet!

G. Warrener 25th August 2005 23:36
Re: Jewishness
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski
Hello
Dobry wieczor pan



Oh, the boys are Jewish but they cannot reproduce Jews. They are the end of the line.

Boys have to be circumsized - matrilineal descent is a fundamental of Judaism, and remained unquestioned for 3,100 years until the rise of the Jewish Reform movement in the late 18th century.
</B>
The source for matrilineal descent is from the Bible itself, where it discusses the prohibition against marrying out of the Faith. The Bible says that you may not give over your child to a non-Jewish spouse as he may turn your son away from you.

The bible, in describing the grandson as “your son” implies that he is Jewish, whereas the non-Jewish child-in-law is depicted as a male. This is understood to mean that the religion goes after the mother.


This is not that clear. A rather complicated issue, especially as there is nobody in kind of Pope there, someone who makes a general interpretation of holy books.

Benedetto is well aware of how & where his employment originates.
RABBIS spend their lives interpreting. The devout listen & learn from rabbis



She was Lidya Litvyak - I am not sure if Litvyak and Litvak is the same name but if it was Jewish, I am certain she was awared of it. By the way, Litvak is used as a synonymous of a Russian Jew.

You are more precise than I am Francis
I am not too sure if Soviet 1930s society permitted obedience to Jewish religious practice. For me she is Jewish only if she was aware of her faith - and followed it. I have similar 'doubts' about Stanford-Tuck, as I have never found reference to him being a practising Jew ?
As for Melitta........

I am not interested in Soviet/Eastern European prejudices. I am interested in the victims of such prejudices. I find certain chapters in First Kill sad. But as with S. Skalski in his later years - I will not judge - their lives were not my life and as pilots, both were exceptionally skilled, brave and served the allied cause superbly. Their personal views may have been expressed - but that was their right of speech. I am neither a Polish Catholic nor a Polish Jew.



Why, I do not see religious Jews there?

Correct - a "Church" is to a Jew a buiding from which only trouble and strife can be expected - maybe this will change - but as long as those who go into churches deny the origins of their beliefs - I (personally) suspect that caution is the better part of valour for those who choose to remain outside, and true to the original source



You are simplifying the whole picture.
Thank you



I have not murdered anybody! At least as yet!
lucky for you...I encourage your restraint. Repentance is better than salvation.....

TTFN
Graham

Franek Grabowski 26th August 2005 02:04
Re: Jewishness
 
Dobry wieczór

Quote:
Boys have to be circumsized - matrilineal descent is a fundamental of Judaism, and remained unquestioned for 3,100 years until the rise of the Jewish Reform movement in the late 18th century.
</B>
The source for matrilineal descent is from the Bible itself, where it discusses the prohibition against marrying out of the Faith. The Bible says that you may not give over your child to a non-Jewish spouse as he may turn your son away from you.
I would say the reason is much simplier. Jews were like Gypsies in modern times, nomads travelling through the middle east. In such conditions, a pregnant woman is always a problem and you can imagine what the problem is when the child is not 'our'. Making religious argument that the child should be considered 'our' because it is of 'our' mother allows to resolve such issues and rise the children.

Quote:
The bible, in describing the grandson as “your son” implies that he is Jewish, whereas the non-Jewish child-in-law is depicted as a male. This is understood to mean that the religion goes after the mother.
I mean the child of a Jewish mother is always a Jew not depending on sex.

Quote:
Benedetto is well aware of how & where his employment originates.
RABBIS spend their lives interpreting. The devout listen & learn from rabbis
I mean there is no oberrabbi, who is supervising other rabbis. So every rabbi can interpret the bible in any way he considers correct. This may lead to so many complicated interpretations that are quite contradictory.

Quote:
You are more precise than I am Francis
Oh, it was just discussed here.

Quote:
I am not too sure if Soviet 1930s society permitted obedience to Jewish religious practice. For me she is Jewish only if she was aware of her faith - and followed it. I have similar 'doubts' about Stanford-Tuck, as I have never found reference to him being a practising Jew ?
Litvyak - if it is a Jewish name (I do not know Russian that good) then she must have been awared of it, no doubt. If she was religious, that is another matter. I would like to avoid discussion if Jewishness is nationality or religion, let's leave it to rabbis.
RST, well, I am curious as well. As I noted previously, research on the Polish airmen of Jewish descent/religion is sloppy to say the least. I have to receive some sort of document listing the Polish airmen of Jewish religion but I am still waiting for it.

Quote:
As for Melitta........
Perhaps it is a bogus story?

Quote:
I am not interested in Soviet/Eastern European prejudices. I am interested in the victims of such prejudices. I find certain chapters in First Kill sad. But as with S. Skalski in his later years - I will not judge - their lives were not my life and as pilots, both were exceptionally skilled, brave and served the allied cause superbly. Their personal views may have been expressed - but that was their right of speech. I am neither a Polish Catholic nor a Polish Jew.
Beware, a victim may be a monster! Or should we consider Roehm or Berya victims?
Concerning views of Gnyś, Skalski or anybody else, such a discussion without the knowledge of rather complicated ethnical/religious situation is senseless. Also, I have noted that especially Anglosaxons have problems with understanding such issues, for example that nationality is not linked to place of living or citizenship.

Quote:
Correct - a "Church" is to a Jew a buiding from which only trouble and strife can be expected - maybe this will change - but as long as those who go into churches deny the origins of their beliefs - I (personally) suspect that caution is the better part of valour for those who choose to remain outside, and true to the original source
I cannot say anything about English or German churches but I do not see anything like that here in Poland. I would say it is the other side which increases the conflict, and it is mostly 'imported' people.

Quote:
lucky for you...I encourage your restraint. Repentance is better than salvation.....
;)

G. Warrener 26th August 2005 14:43
a word
 
Hi Franek

"Litvyak - if it is a Jewish name "

Litvak is the current Jewish word for Lithuania - the country - I do not know the origin - though it is likely from Yiddish & not Hebrew

In much English literature about the Soviet aviatrix it is spelled thus, without the 'y'

I cannot read Russian - I suppose that translating Russían into Polish or English etc - can mean inserting or omitting letters to enable a more correct 'sound'

Graham

G. Warrener 26th August 2005 15:42
well it's not really WW2 but...
 
"I would say it is the other side which increases the conflict, and it is mostly 'imported' people."


Franek


Presuming that you may just be a Polish Catholic - this is what your top managment in Rome expect you to follow (sorry that it's in English)

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19820306_jews-judaism_en.html

whereas the 'imports' are thinking this (in Polish !) - though of course it is a team effort and so possibly confusing - maybe even provocative?

http://www.jcrelations.net/en/?id=1983

************************************************** ********************

But the man on the street rarely listens to the wise....

Graham

Franek Grabowski 28th August 2005 02:50
Re: well it's not really WW2 but...
 
The problem is that all the RC have a managment in Rome. Jewes do not have any such managment and any Rabbi may draw his own conclusions and nobody is at power to verify them.

jhor99 15th September 2005 21:31
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
I am Jewish, during my service I knew just a few Jewish pilots ,but I ran into many who were navigators.

At wars end I was in the right place and the right time to get a job as an airline pilot. However, I had the wrong name, I spite of having approx 900 hours of 4 engine time, plus a qualified navigator rating

Jules Horowitz

Franek Grabowski 16th September 2005 15:22
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Hello Jules
Nice to hear you. A question to you is what was approximate number Jewish pilots and crewmembers that you have met? Do you have any idea, why there were more Jewish navigators rather than pilots?
Concerning post-war time, it was generally a not very good time for qualified pilots - plenty of them were demobbed, many of them found their first civilian job during the Berlin Airlift.
By the way, have you been flying any sorties to Southern Poland? I mean such places like Auschwitz, Blechhammer or Odertal.
Best wishes

jhor99 17th September 2005 20:56
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski
Hello Jules
Nice to hear you. A question to you is what was approximate number Jewish pilots and crewmembers that you have met? Do you have any idea, why there were more Jewish navigators rather than pilots?
Concerning post-war time, it was generally a not very good time for qualified pilots - plenty of them were demobbed, many of them found their first civilian job during the Berlin Airlift.
By the way, have you been flying any sorties to Southern Poland? I mean such places like Auschwitz, Blechhammer or Odertal.
Best wishes
When I applied for an airline job, the war wasn't over yet. At that time I was offered a job with each airline,but I couldn't accept. After I was separated from the service, andapplied 2 short months later (March 1945) I was told that they would let me know. Leaving very dejectedly, I met an ailine captain thet I knew, he advised me to change my name. They would then hire me since I had about 900 hours 4 engine time, also a navigator rating. I felt that I didn'twant to live a lie.

No, I flew out of N.Africa, my last 13flights were from Italy. My group flew to Poland later on.

Franek Grabowski 19th September 2005 23:24
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Sorry, I did not notice your reply earlier. Thank you for your explanations!

Franz von Werra 7th December 2005 13:04
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Boak
I did notice recently that the list of the nationality of BoB pilots included one Israeli. An interesting concept, that.
You might be interested in knowing that I discussed this issue many years ago with some ex-RAF penfriends.
One of them stated that the Israeli Prime Minister (the name escaped him, but now I know it is the late Ezer Weizmann - sigh!) served in the wartime RAF, but was not sure about the BoB period.
Another provided me with more in-depth information and identified the pilot as GEORGE GOODMAN. I am not sure as to whether he was of Jewish religion, however, he was born in Palestine in 1915 to a railway engineer. He joined the RAF and took part to the BoB with 1 Squadron (JX) flying Hawker Hurricanes.
He later moved to N. Africa and was killed in 1941. He is buried in Knightsbridge War Cemetery, Acroma (Libya).

Brian 7th December 2005 19:15
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Hi Franz

May I correct one or two statements - Ezer Weizmann was a former president of Israel. He did not serve in the Battle of Britain but towards the end of the war, as did Aaron Remez, the first commander of the Israeli Air Force, and many others from those early days. As for George Goodman, he was born in Palestine, as it was then, so strictly-speaking was Palestinian.

Cheers
Brian

Franz von Werra 7th December 2005 20:50
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
Hi Franz

May I correct one or two statements - Ezer Weizmann was a former president of Israel. He did not serve in the Battle of Britain but towards the end of the war, as did Aaron Remez, the first commander of the Israeli Air Force, and many others from those early days. As for George Goodman, he was born in Palestine, as it was then, so strictly-speaking was Palestinian.

Cheers
Brian
Many thanks!!

drgondog 4th January 2006 22:09
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
At least one fighter pilot in 358Fs/355FG was jewish, was shot down in March 1944 and survived Buchewald..

Mifletz 7th January 2006 02:37
BOB Israeli
 
At the very end of the film "Battle of Britain" it lists the number of foreign pilots who fought in it.

The last on the list says "Israeli - 1".

This caused some stir at the time since Israel didn't exist in 1940, and by rights it should have said "Palestinian".

But no fuss was made because this was 1969, just 2 years after the Six Day War, and the atmosphere in the West was generally pro-Israeli.

If it wasn't Weizman, any idea who this one BOB "Israeli/Palestinian" was?

Franz von Werra 7th January 2006 12:16
Re:Jewish airmen in WWII
 
The pilot the film refers to might be George R. Goodman, although he died long before the Israeli State was established.

malladyne 20th January 2006 18:37
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Many Jews in the UK are so anxious to either assimilate themselves or to hide their true identity that they assume English names and very often those that display a English root or a certain element of taste and style.
For example, I know of a jewish legal practice in North London where the of the principal partners were called Isidore Isaacs,Nahum Rothstein and Jacob Goldblatt, but upon qualifying as solicitors they changed their names to Rupert Winchester, Guy Sheringham and Alex Tonbridge.
During the War, of course, such Jewish airmen as there were (not that many) had much better reasons to change theirr names..and many did.
Malladyne

Franek Grabowski 10th September 2006 21:25
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Gents
I have received a kind email from a son of Maj. Gen. Levi R. Chase, stating that he was neither Jew or of Jewish origin. Similar messages appeared on BoBHSF, and clearing issues of Stanford-Tuck and Goodman, both being very Anglo-Saxon protestants.

Franz von Werra 10th September 2006 22:11
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
So my guess on Goodman was wrong. Too bad: I'd got the cue from a bomber pilot and I found it fascinating.

...And the mystery continues...

drgondog 14th September 2006 03:32
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
John Chalot 358Fs/355fg was a Jew, went down on 11 March and spent the rest of the war at Dachau (survived). Only Jewish fighter pilot I am aware of in the 355th

Regards,

Bill Marshall

Franz von Werra 1st October 2006 19:12
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
As per the Jewish pilot controversy, here's what Wikipedia says. Although I don't think it's determinant information, I find it interesting.
Quote:
Palestinian contribution
The RAF's official "Battle of Britain Roll of Honour" recognises 1 Palestinian as having fought in the Battle of Britain: Pilot Officer George Ernest Goodman (42598 ), born in Haifa, Palestine (now Haifa, Israel). The Palestinian contribution is also sometimes described as the "Israeli contribution", although the State of Israel was not proclaimed until 1948. PO Goodman's parents were British Jews, he carried a British Passport and was educated at Highgate. He is therefore sometimes recorded as a British airman.

At least 32 (probably 43) Jewish airmen took part in the Battle of Britain (just over 1% of participants). Over three-quarters were British Jews, the rest fighting in the American, Belgian, Canadian, Czechoslovak, Polish and South African contingents (Martin Sugarman).
Also see:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...w2/sugar4.html

Franek Grabowski 1st October 2006 20:46
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Martin Sugarman's 'research' may only be called as a crap. Goodman was not Jewish, it was underlined by his family.

Mens Agitat Molem 15th July 2008 22:55
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Perhaps this link might provide more information:-

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...w2/sugar1.html

It's an article about Jewish RAF Special Operators in Radio Counter Measures with 101 Squadron.

cz_raf 10th September 2008 18:34
Re: a word
 
Franek, there were also quite a lot of Jews/people of Jewish origin among Czechoslovak airmen in the RAF.

Pavel

Franek Grabowski 10th September 2008 22:02
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Ahoj Pavle
Could you elaborate?

Andy Saunders 11th September 2008 18:50
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz von Werra (Post 28990)
So my guess on Goodman was wrong. Too bad: I'd got the cue from a bomber pilot and I found it fascinating.

...And the mystery continues...
I may have missed something along the way on this thread (haven't read all the posts!) but is there some confusion about place of birth and status as a member of the Jewish faith?

I understood Goodman to have been born in Palestine, but that does not make him Jewish and he cannot have been "Israeli" as has already been pointed out.

If we are talking "of the Jewish faith" then I suspect they number many more than one. Offhand, one already comes to mind - and that was P/O Nelson of 74 Squadron. However, he was certainly British. "Jewish" is a faith, not a nationality! Singling out Nelson, Goodman or any other pilot, as Jewish is of little relevance really - apart from the German attitude to Jews, of course. Other than that, it is no more relevant than if they were Roman Catholic, Anglican, Non-Conformist or Atheist. Sub-dividing Battle of Britain pilots into nationality groups has some historic significance. Sub-dividing them into faith groups has none, although another forum has recently discussed which Battle of Britain pilots were Mormon. That specific discussion, though, may have other connotations connected with that particular faith.

Franek Grabowski 11th September 2008 19:11
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
The problem is that there is both Jewish religion and Jewish nationality. This may seem a little bit muddy for British with their land law, but quite clear for those accustomed with blood law. Following the land law, only a minority of Polish the few were Poles, the rest of them born in Austro-Hungary, Germany, Russia, even Georgia (then Russia) or USA. Polish top aces would be Russian, like Skalski or Urbanowicz, or a famous test pilot - Żurakowski. Is not it a little bit ridiculous?
Jews had no country of their own, but established it post-war. You just cannot deny their right to existence as a nation. The question remains, how many Jews fought in WWII, how many considered themselves Jewish, and even how many joined IDF.

Andy Saunders 11th September 2008 20:14
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Franek, in the interest of clarity I would like to make it plain that I was not in any way suggesting that Israel and its Jewish population had no right to exist as a nation! I am sorry if you or anyone else thought I meant that.

Franek Grabowski 11th September 2008 20:37
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Andy
The problem is that such division in case of Jews is very hard, especially as there was no country of origin. There were several spurious claims made over the nationality of some pilots, hence the question.
Looking forward for your reply on the BoB forum.

Andy Saunders 11th September 2008 22:38
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Franek. Understood!

A pity, though, that published sources continue to state, rather ludicrously, that there was "One Israeli" in the BofB nominal roll. Years ago I spoke to Tom Gleave about this and his remarks to me were that the inclusion of this in the rolling credits at the end of the film "Battle of Britain" was entirely political with less then subtle pressure applied by HM Government on the film makers via the MOD and RAF.

Franek Grabowski 11th September 2008 23:01
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Well, I would say that in the light of evidence it is an utter lie, and a nonsense in spite of obvious fact there was no Israeli state at 1940. The fact of pressure is especially interesting, considering one of producers, Fisz, was an airman of Jewish faith.

Andy Saunders 12th September 2008 00:49
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
In which case perhaps it didn't need too much pressure, anyway!

Franek Grabowski 12th September 2008 19:39
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Well, I do not know what was the faith of Salzman, but the origin is clear as well. Why there is a mention of pressure then? I know that Fisz pressed for inclusion of the Polish Squadron though. So sad he did not manage to film his last movie before his death.

David Ransome 12th September 2008 21:05
Re: Jewish airmen in WWII
 
Hi,

As far as I am aware both Fisz and Salzman had not wanted the one 'Israeli' shown in the end titles and I have a recollection that they had commented to the effect that a number of aircrew involved were Jewish by religion. I'm certain that the pressure came from the political arena and UA, for whatever reason.

Regards,

David


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