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Hi unikum,

effectively! I did post it in my chronicle: no one saw it... including me.
Thanks for the pointer!

Franck.

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Ah Unikum,

Your's is a great find! Another Bf 109 K-4 with a W.Nr. in the 335 range! The third only I do know about picturewise, after 335 191 in Cham - Michelsdorf and 335 197 posted here recently!
I tried to magnify your e-bay find but still cannot make out correctly the last three digits, obscured by the hanging net.

Could this be also taken at Cham Michelsdorf? Roland, Matthias, any thoughts?

Cheers
Marc

Re: Photos
 

Hi Marc,

the camo net conceals any details - just as it is supposed to do...
I know a photo from Cham-Michelsdorf production site featuring similar camo nets. Photo shows a Si204D and a Bü181 without engine besides a smouldering Bf109.
According to my hypothesis the size of the W.Nr. would point to a Flossenbürg/Vilseck production?

Regards

Roland

Re: Photos
 

There is something like a Dark band around rear fuselage... Normal... But it seems that band is outlined by a thin one, both sides, clear coloured. Any clue?

Franck.

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Hi to all esp. Unikum !! Many thanks for showing this great pictures !!

Regards

JohnnyB

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i must ask a question - "is it known when these pictures were taken"? the reason i ask because the a/c wrecks appear to have spray can grafiti all over them. were they taken at the wars end or, as they spray paint may suggest, are they more recent than that?

regards

paul

Re: Photos
 

German Plane in Prague, May 1945
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/3...mentaspxyu.jpg
Ju 388
http://www.life.com/image/50648007
http://www.life.com/image/50648005

Re: Photos
 

Concerning the Bf109K-4 335xxx:
The dots on the tail unit are described on p.56,57 of JaPo´s "Bf109K -Camouflage and Markings" including the wing splinter camo scheme.
I don´t think it´s a dark fuselage band. There´s a K-4 W.Nr. 335800 found at München-Riem described with "yellow fuselage band and red stripes". IMHO the "stripes" are adhesive bands or putty and "yellow" are parts painted with some yellowish primer. Take an orthochromatic b/w film and you´ll get the results depicted on the photograph.
Does anybody see a hand-painted "8" directly behind the Balkenkreuz?
This would fit into my hypothesis that large 6-figure W.Nr. on the rudder are connected with huge hand-painted 3-figure W.Nr. on the aft fuselage sides.

Regards

Roland

Re: Photos
 

Concerning the Ju388:
The photos were taken in an abandoned hangar of the Junkers works ATG(Werk 3) at Leipzig-Mockau. The partly completed airframes were deliberately set on fire by the Junkers personnel.
Most fuselages are from the Ju388L-1 variant, W.Nr. as follows:
340 301
340 307
340 383
340 402
340 405
340 407
340 410
340 411
At least two Ju388J nightfighter fuselages were lying around (those with the bright dots on the medium dark fuselage sides)

Paul, I don´t see any grafiti - do you mean the sloppy application of the tail camo by the Junkers subcontractors?

Regards

Roland

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Hi all,
thanks unikum, truly awesome finds!
For the K4 335XXX , the same kind of camo net can be found in Peter Schmoll's book "Die Messerschmittwerke im zweiten Weltkrieg" on page 155, 178 hiding the production halls in Gauting and Stauffen forrest factory. I think that this could be a special version ordered by MTT and used on the several late-war production sites. Although it's an exeptional design it can always be found on pictures of those plants.
If you have a look on those areal pictures of Cham-Michelsdorf you can clearly see a lot of camo-net-constructs all around the airfield. I'm sure the same was done in Amberg-Schafhof and Vilseck. If we think about Roland's Werknummer-theory, it would be more likely one of the last ones, than Cham.
Those vertical stripes visible on the fuselage are simply formed when blasting the cockpit:) The pressure is bursting the rivet joint and blank/primed aluminium appears. I don't think, that putty was applied after riveting the fuselage. I think the same happend on the K4 in München-Riem when the tailplane was changed.

regards
Matthias

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Very interesting photos: thanks for sharing

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Here´s the Cham-Michelsdorf photograph:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...Micheldorf.jpg
Source: "Sie kommen! Die letzten Kriegstage in der Oberpfalz"

Regards

Roland

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Hi,

just discovered another intresting photo showing a K4.
It's currently sold here:
http://cgi.ebay.de/WW2-German-Luftwa...item564111f2e2
It shows the typical, often discussed Wertheim/Bodenwöhr camo and has been under repair at "Welser Flugwerke".
Enjoy!

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Hi there Roland and MAtthias,

Good to find you back in a K-4 thread! Roland, thanks for forwarding this shot of Cham Michelsdorf.

Matthias, your find is actually a rip from Hideki Noro's "LO+ST". Just can't find the book right now, but if my memory still serves me, this K-4 was discarded at Salzburg.

Cheers
Marc

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Correction; this K-4 picture does not stem from Noro's book... Getting old; I can't remember where I did see it. Maybe in your thread over on LEMB, Christian? As I have been locked out without any explanation, could you check this for me? Thanks!

Cheers
Marc

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Yep, it's from Salzburg. The Ju 88 in the background is the rather well-known L1+BM from LG 1. Even though the ebay seller claims it's an original, I think the photo comes from the NARA collection. Besides, a shot of the Fw 190 A-7 in the center when it was still in one piece can be found in Wings of the Black Cross Vol.1, page 5.

Cheers,
Christian

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Hi Marc and all,
The K-4 is depicted in a later WOTBC volume, too. Vol. 4, I think.
If my memory serves me well before being repainted with US stars it had been "Yellow 5" with number 5 painted only on the port side of the fuselage. But it had been found at Ainring, as far as I remember.

Matthias, is your statement correct this K-4 had been repaired at Wels? Nothing to do with the manufacturing of the tail unit? If this is so this Bf109 was brand-new recycled and undergoing additional painting. Obviously there had been not enough time to apply the second tactical number "5" on the starboard side of the fuselage.

If it had been repaired I´d be very careful to adress any camo system.

Regards

Roland

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:bann1:Hi my friend!!
I need an explanation here. This Bf109K-4 is supposed to have been "captured" in Ainring, didn't it?
See another thread on LEMB... Or maybe it's a different plane.
Since it wasn't clear, I googled for Ainring and discovered it was very close by Salzburg; 1km???? less, more or less?
Does it mean:
1/ the plane was found in Ainring then transported to Salzburg scrap, let say near by train transportation facilities for metal business?
2/ The plane was found in Ainring and the scrap was in Ainring, but memories said "Salzburg" 'cause it was easier to remember it?

Any comments about this?

Cheers, Franck.

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Hi Franck,

the distance from Neubiberg to Salzburg are 130 km, from Ainring to Salzburg are less than 10 km (in fact just across the river Saalach). Short enough to be confused with Salzburg-Maxglan

Regards

Roland

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Hi, all!

My favourite in th thread until now:

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/0659c07189da8c11_large

What a basis for a model diorama!

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Photos
 

Hi Roland,

I think you did put your post when I was writing mine.
Now it's clear, at least you did confirm it was found in Ainring which is as close as you wrote from Salzburg-Maxglan.

Regards, Franck.

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Hi Franck,
No problem. But not a confirmation yet - I´m quoting from memory not having WOTBC5 at hand.
This webpage e.g.
http://www.ainring.info/historica/flugpl.htm
states that Ainring airfield ("Regierungsflughafen Reichenhall-Berchtesgaden") was gathering point for captured planes after the end of the war. So everything is left to be open.

Regards

Roland

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Hi,
thank you guys for the explantion. It was completly new to me:o
Hi Roland, as producers for the big wooden tail units I know Schmepp/Hirth, Deutsche Edelmöbel/Butschowitz and Oberlechner/Spittal.
"Flugzeug- u. Metallbauwerk Wels" is only named as "Reperaturwerk" and I never heard that they were involveld in the K4 production???
Also see the following link: http://www.geheimprojekte.at/t_wels.html.
Maybe the aircraft was sent there after a manufacturing error occured while the flyover to a near airfield. That wasn't really uncommon to the end of the war.
Matthias

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Yo Christian, Franck, Roland and Matthias,

Christian: thanks for confirming the location, glad to know I still have some brain functions undamaged so far ;-))


Roland: your post opened a whole new world for me! I was totally unaware that this was in fact "Gelbe 5" from Ainring! Magic! I do have WOTB 5 here at home, and there it is, thanks to Mark Proulx's publication:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625380126592/
(Mark, I hope this is ok with you that I post this picture; if not, let me know and I will cancel it).

Talking about pieceing back the Past...

Matthias and Franck: thanks to you guys, I do understand now how close Wels, Salzburg and Ainring were... Good to know this, and imagine the US pilots hopping around with former Luftwaffe machines in order to collect them from one spot to the other (All this for the scrapper's axe...). This is by itself a whole new field of study... A good book subject.

Cheers
Marc

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Yep Andreas, those Erla G-10's in Leipzig are great... Let's start counting the sheeps for tonight ;-))

Cheers
Marc

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Don't neglect the possibility that the "Ainring" info in WotBC 4 is just wrong. The airfield this "5+" was found at could very well be Salzburg. Please note the mountain formation typical for other Salzburg pics in the background of the first shot in WotBC 4, page 4.

It is also not ultimately proven that the K-4 in the ebay shot and the two K-4s in WotBC are the very same aircraft. It is most likely, to be honest, but still..

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Hi Guys,

@Marc. Where is the picture? Link doesn't work! "Forbidden, Private picture".
@Andreas. Fortunately we can find members with a deep sense of humour! But I knew it through your moto: it's a perfect shortcut to explain our fever!
@Christian: In fact that's what I expected to read. I'm not sure about Ainring though considering Ainring situation the landscape is not an argument; you just have to cross the river as pointed by Roland and as I discovered in Google.

If Ainring was a "gathering point" as noticed by Roland we can suppose - just an expectation - there is a possibility for the plane to have been taken in a completely different place and brought there... Except if you say that JG52 planes where discovered everywhere in the area... and why not brought directly to Salzburg scrap then?

Well, just a thought, not necessarily a truth.

Regards, Franck.

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Christian,

Point taken! The right side view does not give away any definite clue that this machine and the one in US markings are one and the same.


Franck, here are both pics available (and apologies: it is WOTBC 4):

http://s881.photobucket.com/albums/a...ow5Ainring.jpg
http://s881.photobucket.com/albums/a...w5aAinring.jpg
(Mark, I hope this is ok with you that I post those picture; if not, let me know and I will cancel them)

Cheers
Marc

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Thanks Marc,

You did send me the first picture months ago...
The second is new for me, and for me it's clear all camo details match perfectly!...

Cheers mon ami, Franck.

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Me 109
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/316...52222F25EC092C

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/324...0A760B0D811297

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/314...143FD4AE7FC81B

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/316...3FEF406871B787

me 163
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/316...AFC5CF6109BBC7

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Links don't work...

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Hi there,

1st & 3rd picture being von Werra plane.
and 4th being "Gelbe 11" shot down in France, Lt. Karl-Heinz Schulz of I./JG76.

Cheers, Franck.

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Found it at last: this picture is a rip from the following book:

Lorant, Jean-Yves et Goyat Richard (2005): Bataille dans le ciel d'Allemagne. Une escadre de chasse dans la débacle, septembre 1944 - mai 1945, Editions Larivière, vol. 2, p.289.

Cheers
Marc