Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

BBC News this morning reported from the recovery ship that the lift was attempted last night but the winds were too strong when they swung the rig over the side of the barge. They're going back to port and will try again in about a week.

The RAF Museum guy was absolutely determined that they would raise it however.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Here the BBC report about the current situation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22752625

Keeping my fingers crossed...
Marc

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Just back from Ramsgate and for those interested:

- They have not run out of money
- They have managed to suck out sand from the main body and around the engines but not the wing tips.
- There is no evidence of human remains
- There is no evidence of unexploded ordnance.
- There are no guns (strange?)
- They have recovered a number of items including bomb racks, armour plated seat, drift calculator and ammo drums which are already at Cosford.
- The plane appears to have hit the sea tail first as the tailwheel is rammed up into the fuselage.
- German Press have tracked down Effmert's family so he did not stay in Wales. Apparently his first wife died during the war, he remarried in the 70s/80s but died a number of years ago. Step daughter knows nothing about his wartime career. All attempts to trace relatives of the other 3 have failed.

Finally, 2 attempts to lift it (yesterday and today) failed to start due to the sea state; no news for certain when the next attempt will be

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Thanks for this first hand update, Chris. Much appreciated.

Marc

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Agreed, thanks for the update. :)

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Thanks Chris. You are far more informative than the BBC!
Best regards,
Andy

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

thanks Chris, and fingers crossed!

Gilles

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Hi Chris
I understand that the lift is on again today 10th June? How is it going? Hows it gone?
I'm told the BBC will be doing a live broadcast from the vessel & screening it on the BBC News Channel.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

'



Cheers for the tip ~ I'll watch what Chris has to say too :)


.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

I am aware that another attempt is being made but I am away on business looking at a different sea namely Marmara!

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

WWII Dornier bomber being raised from English Channel. BBC News-"Looks like it has been successful" Its been raised in the last few minutes...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22846645

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Ouuf, one can breath again... Battered, tattered but at least it still has some kind of structural integrity. Now the real race against time has set in... To cover in anticorrosion jelly the whole airframe... every minute counts...


Wishing them and ultimately us good luck!
Marc

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Great job, well done! :bow:

Regards,
Bf 110

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Well done, Bloody good show, eh ... etc :-)
Battered but still recognisable. Now the Lemon Acid can take over.
And them He 177, Do 217 and Ju 188 might also be thought of,
somewhere in the Eastern Atlantic, on the tracks of the convoys,
perhaps in Boody Biscay, Irish Sea or further out in North Sea or Skagerrack.
Baltic perhaps has some too, and MTO likely squadrons of all types.
I guess its the question of money.
-ed

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

.........as time slips aways.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Great to see it finally surface. The divers recovered the two engines early this morning and are waiting for slack water to recover the port wing.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

I've just got back from Ramsgate harbour - the wreck is now in port, although quayside access is restricted

http://falkeeins.blogspot.co.uk/2013...ier-do-17.html

I did manage to catch Mr Saunders on the local lunch-time news though - not Effmert's a/c ?

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Despite being away on business, no positive news as to the identity of the Do 17
Neil: on your blog spot can you state the photo of the Do 17 & crew is not Effmerts so I am not having to tell members if the Press that it a generic photo (unless you can tell me otherwise !). You know what they can be like!

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

wilco Chris, I guess even The Times would have trouble identifying that as a KG 2 machine..

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Chris - Hope an Dornier expert be allowed examine it in detail before immersion in Lemon, you know whos doin that?

https://www.facebook.com/rafmuseumcosford
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater
That plate is a starter.
Best. Nr. 54xx6/4 ? (typical Henschel order number, not tiable to W.Nr., so far as I know)
Zeich.Nr. 17.57x-315 (wing part drawing number)
Typ. u Grp. Do 17 Z (as expected)
Kontr. (230) inspector nr. <H> Henschel stamp <BA> Bau Abnahme inspection stamp
(last is for Kontoll i.e. Quality Inspection?)

Plate appears not a significant one (also inicative by the -515 in wing part), so no date stamped.

-ed

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Thanks Neil. Back in UK tonight protests petmitting

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

You mean there are people protesting about letting you back in?

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Wife went to have a look yesterday & got a whiff if tear gas!
Update on Do 17 is they will be dismantling over the coming days so are on the lookout for makers plate.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Just 'washed' the plate through a few photoshop filters and it appears to read.


Best. Nr. 54xx6/4
Zeich.Nr. 17.57x-315

The other numbers seem too obscured :- )

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Thanks for keeping us up to date guys, and congratulations to all involved in the project.

Can anyone tell me why there is sudden doubt as to which a/c this is?

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

There has never been a sudden doubt- although the AHB thought it was this ac, myself & others have urged caution as we cannot be 100% sure until we have. Wk Nr

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Chris is quite correct to say that the question of identity is not a case of 'sudden doubt' - certainly among those who make a study of such things. Until it can be established that the wreckage is indeed that of 1160 then establishing a link to ESSMERT's aircraft, despite the high degree of probability, remains speculative. Encouragingly, the absence of any crew during its recovery does add to this possibility.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Curious, which factory delivered W.Nr. 1160 and this be Do 17 Z-1, Z-2 or Z-3.
Thanks in advance. -ed

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Just goes to show that you shouldn't believe what you read in the papers!

Cheers.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

As Peter C and Chris G have said, it really is a case of wait and see! If the aircraft it is said to be did indeed put down on the sands at low tide then the location and attitude (upside down) of the wreck might be difficult to reconcile with that fact. Plus, the possibility cannot be excluded that it is one of many other Do17s in that sea area, of course. A case of wait and see.

On the other hand, and if reports of five x MG15s being recovered from this particular wreck by sport divers are correct it might beg another question; surely there would have been only four if the escape hatch had been ditched? In other words, and in theory, there would still have been four in the cabin area but the fifth would have surely gone with the escape hatch?

Just musings. And we cannot be sure that the recovered MG15s originated with this wreck, of course, or that the quoted total (five) is accurate.

Little point in speculating until that Werke Nr. is found. For the sake of RAFM I hope it is the one they say it is. However, for the purposes of the PMR Act licence they had to apply a confirmed identity else a recovery licence could not have been granted. And the Dornier in question ticked the right boxes. However, as Peter C says, for the time being it can only be speculative.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Latest update: Most of the dismantling is complete and it will be moved to Cosford soon. Still no positive proof but they are still hunting for the evidence that this was 5K+AR so whatever you read in the Press in the coming days:
1. It is still not definitely 5K+AR
2. It was not definitely shot down by Desmond Hughes of 264 Sqn
3. It was not attacking Debden but Manston.
4. There is no evidence that they got lost in cloud as if you stand in the harbour at Ramsgate, the target is behind you and you could see where the planed ended up! The captured crew probably spun a yarn to their interrogators (who wouldn't!)
5. Any photo showing 3 crewmen (one has an eye patch) in front of a Do 17's nose does not show Effmert on the left but Willi Lüder who transferred to KG 28 and then 4/LG 1 and was taken POW 15 Aug 40 (one of the perils of illegally lifting photos from one of my books!)
6. There is no evidence that any of the crew baled out but what we can say is the pilot was still on board when it landed on the sea.
7. Correct me if I am wrong but Ste Trond was not changed to Ste Truiden after the war-it has always had the French and Flemmish names?

More to come!

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Sint-Truiden (the official name now) or Saint-Trond is still the same in Belgium, depending if you are in the Flemish-speaking part or in the French-speaking part.

All the best with the "after recovery"

ClinA-78

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

One very small piece of info, the body Gefr Heinz Huhn was recovered from the sea off Whitstable, where he was originally buried on 29.08.1940
Joe

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Quite so Joe, and that of the Bordfunker Uffz Helmut REINHARDT came ashore in The Netherlands and was buried at Den Burg on 27 Sep 1940. But, until the question of the Dornier's identity is finally resolved, we are still getting ahead of ourselves

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

News just recently that Wargaming.net, no doubt frustrated and exasperated by their Burmese Spitfire hunt, have now stepped up to the plate and tipped in some significant funding. The Dornier is now surrounded by Wargaming.net banners as "Proud sponsors of Dornier 17 project".

Nothing wrong with commercial sponsorship, per se, but I am not sure why I feel slightly uncomfortable in seeing rather garish Wargaming banners and logos associated with an important heritage object for a national museum, and a national museum that carries with it the prestige of the Royal Air Force. But it might just be me! And at least Wargaming may have saved the day.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

True. Beggars can't be choosers I guess.

What are the plans for restoration? Full restoration or more like the Halifax at RAF Hendon?

All the best

Andreas

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Like the Halifax and Hurricane

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Hello,

I've found some photographs of the restoration here: http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=52618.

Regards,
Bf 110

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Regarding the landing of 5K+AR, there is a fascinating description of a landing made by a ditching Dornier 17Z crew in Alfred Price's book 'The Hardest Day'. The crew had been part of the 9th Staffel's low level attack on Kenley on 18th August and after being attacked over Surrey on the return leg by a Hurricane (and similarly to 5K+AR had lost an engine in the action) was forced to ditch in mid-Channel as they returned to Beauvais.

I have quoted the passage below, 'Battle of Britain - The Hardest Day' Alfred Price , 1979.

Pilot Guenther Unger, 9/KG76 - 18/8/1940

"The water pressure smashed in the glass nose and I received a blow in the face that shook me. I held my breath and opend my eyes, but could not see anything because of the air bubbles in the swirling water. Now I had to release myself quickly, because I was already submerged. I felt for the buckle to release my straps but I could not get to it: the control column was jammed hard against my stomach and I was unable to push it forwards"
The pilot strained against it with every muscle, but the control column refused to budge. Slowly the tail of the Dornier rose and the machine slid under the waves, taking the struggling Unger with it. A sudden numbing fear of death swept over him. Then it passed and he found he was able to think with great clarity and calmness.
"I was still holding my breath, I had not swallowed a single drop of water. I kept thinking to myself "Open your mouth and swallow the water, and it will soon be over." But before I could act on these thoughts, the control column suddenly became free and moved forwards by itself.'
At last Unger was able to reach the harness buckle and release his straps. By now the Dornier was sinking fast, in water so dark that he could make out only a vague outline of the cabin around him. He groped his way to the escape hatch, pushed himself out, and inflated his life jacket. In a flurry of bubbles he rose rapidy towards the lighter water above, like a cork out of a champagne bottle.