Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Hang on....

So we now have "three" aircraft from III./EJG 2 force landing in the Landshut area on the same day, 6 Feb 1945.

WNr 170053 (engine fire, west Landshut), WNr 110530 (engine fire, north-east Landshut) and WNr 11053/111053 (engine fire, north-east Landshut)

Sounds to me like at least one (perhaps even two) too many.

A Frenchman, Philippe Saintes in Avions Hors-série #45 has come to the conclusion WNr 170053 is correct and the others wrong.

I think we can dismiss WNr 11053/111053 as bogus, but what about WNr 110530?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Jim, Stig,

Thanks for your inputs. Try as I might I have only one Me 262 with a flaming engine in the sky of Landshut that 6 February 1945...

- GQM #12-26, 190/45, 8.3.45, 37,as you say, Jim, mentions "W.Nr. 11053"
- Dan's and Horn's publications do mention W.Nr. 170053 only.

So, from where does 110530 fly in this question ? I still have no clue.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

All three WNr are mentioned in Dan's Production log

They all have a similar final story
Cheers
Stig

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Remember that the number "1" in Europe is written similar to the standard "7" in the west.

Is it not possible that "170053" is actually a mis-reading of "110053"...?

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Yes, my mother wrote the number one this way. However, it is necessary to compare similar tail codes to arrive at a conclusion. I have yet to see a number one written with the long angle line.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Stig,

Thanks for confirming what is printed. Now can we really expect three Me 262’s with engines flaming in the sky of Landshut the same day at the same time ? If confirmed, this is more then astonishing…

Cheers
Matc

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Harrison
Indeed it is a possibility but of all the three WNr ranges we have to consider
170053 is what the experts call a valid one and so is 110530
The only WNr not valid (as per our experts) is 110053 which thus also makes 11053 even more invalid.

So in my opinion the "fight" is between 170053 and 110530. Both these aircraft are listed as Me 262 A-1a, both have a similar fate (as per Dan's list) so a photo would need to be very specific if we should know the truth.

Personally, if we use the GQM data, "11053", I am leaning towards 110530 since that means the individual writing down the data for posterity made only one fault. If we lean towards 170053 the same person made a double fault. Of course that is based upon the assumption most individuals usually just have a bad day, not a very bad day....

However there is one final issue to consider. The individual writing for posterity also wrote it was a B-1 meaning if we add that to the equation we have a man (or woman) with an extremely bad day, making all my logic (well I tried...) null and void....

But I confess one thing, pretty fascinating discussion, isn't it? :)
Cheers
Stig

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Regarding 170053 from ULTRA:

CX/MSS/T505/29
Issued 0200/31/3 signed Adjutant:-
… 3) There are still 2 serviceable ((Me 262)) W/Nos. 1110818 [sic] and 111922 with pilots with KEGIA ((6./KG)) 51. Take off after restoration of runway probably on 31/3 to Unterschlauersbach. ((Me 262)) of (( (Roman) I./KG)) , W/No. 170053 Ltn. Strate will take off on 31/3 if enemy situation still permits.

CX/MSS/R. 507 (C)
12. Document stamped 0830/29/3, signed BATEL Ltn.
Strength return for 28/3:
((A/c)) total 6, serviceable 6, wks. nos. 111635, 170053, + 170103, 170105, 110744, +110427. KAMERADEN ((crews)) total 9, operational 9, ready 9.
NOTE: Ltn. BATEL signs for (Roman) I./KG 51. + Transfers of these aircraft on 30/3 in MSS/T.505/29, where wks. nos. given as 100103, 170427, respectively.

CX/MSS/R 530 (A)
10. From AMC Neuburg to AMC Burg Nr. Magdeburg dated 11/4:-
Red 1, Works No. 170053 made an emergency landing nr. Bachhollen S. of Neuburg. Pilot Ltn. Strat [sic], uninjured.
NOTE: Bachhollen not located but there is a Hollenbach 9 kms. S. of Neuburg - a.d. - Donau.

So according to the above sources, this was a serviceable aircrcaft on 29 and 31 March and was damaged on 11 April 1945

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Thanks Nick

Very interesting. Can ULTRA pull another white rabbit out of its hat and say anything
regarding WNr 110530?

From what I read of your summary above, ULTRA never knew the subversions
so A-1 or B-1 cannot be determined from such files?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

It might but not in any message that I've transcribed, unfortunately.

Sometimes untis reported sub-types, sometimes not. Sadly you're out of luck this time.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

The photo of the tail clearly shows "11053" and the GQM gives "11053", so why can't it be "11053" (of course with the sixth digit unknown)?

If someone has the book by Jan Horn I would be interested in the source that is given there for the loss of Lt. Strate's Me 262 on February 6.
So far I have never come across another Me 262 loss in the Landshut area besides 11053x.

As a side note: The April 26, 1945 JV 44 listing mentions Me 262 111754 as "Rückführ-Flugzeug Landshut-Industrie", whatever that means.

Kind regards,
Daniel

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Stig,

If it helps, despite Horn referring to Werk-Nr. 170 053 as a "A-1a" in his text p. 284 and p. 296, on p.286 of Das Flurschaden-Geschwader he writes:

"Ein Fernschreiben der I./KG 51 am 31. März um 13:00 Uhr an den IT Stab/KG 51 besagt:
'1.) Die Me 262 A-2a (Rote 1: Werk-Nr. 170 053) startet um 05:05 Uhr des 31. März nach Unterschlauersbach über Burg.
2.) Die Me 262 (Werk-Nr. 170 090), Ofw. Zeppenfeld und die Werk-Nr. 500 050, Ofw. Wessel, landeten in Rheinselen. Sie übergaben die Werk-Nr. 170 090 und 500 050 an das NAGr. 6.'"

I hope this helps,

Jim

p.s Daniel,

Horn, p. 284, simply refers to the event as occurring "westlich Landshut" without giving a source, but in the index of losses, p. 362, gives Strate as the pilot involved on 6 February again without sources.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Thanks Nick for checking

Daniel
I am not (as far as I know) privy to any "clear" photo of the incident as such.
Can you either post this photo or refer to where you have seen it?

Obviously Jan Horn does not agree with me.
I pulled Jan's book from the shelf and at least I read page 284 as him saying
WNr 170053 rote 1 and a Me 262 A-1a since he refers to this machine as damaged west of Landshut 6 Feb 1945.
However I still think he is wrong with regard to the actual WNr damaged/written off on that date. It is his interpretation no doubt of WNr 11053.
Looking at page 296 (under 11 April) I cannot see any WNr 170090, I only read
Lt Strate as taking off in WNr 170053 which corresponds pretty exactly with what
Nick has given from his eminent diggings in British archives (thanks agan Nick!!)

Just like everyone else Jan is perfectly entitled to his interpretation (he writes excellent books - unfortunately in German...:o), but in this case my bet is still on WNr 110530.

So Daniel
Over to you!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

It means "Return aircraft, Landshut- Industry" but I don't understand whether Landshut has recalled it from JV 44 or the other way round. "Industrie" is usually a civilian factory or repair facility rather than (say) a Luftwaffe depot. However, this document from 2 May 1945 says that with JV 44 "also on the aerodrome are 17 returned aircraft" including one Me 262 from Landshut (Industrie).

I have just one other mention of Ltn. Strate:

CX/MSS/R 499(A),16
From KEBAD ((1 KG.)) 51, Major Brucker GIGAO ((GAF Station Command)) DETMOLD, orderly room, dated 20/3:- Request information to Ltn. Strate at Esch. His a/c is ready.

And this reference to a transfer to Unterschlauersbach on 31 March:

CX/MSS/T205/29
1110818 [sic] still serviceable with pilot with 6./KG 51 on 30 March 1945. Take off after restoration of runway probably on 31/3 to Unterschlauersbach.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Jim,
Thank you! It would have been interesting to know how Jan Horn came to the conclusion that Lt. Strate was the pilot on February 6.

Stig,
See http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...45190&page=138 and the following page.
Why 110530? What about 110531 to 110539?

Nick,
Thank you for your explanation and the link! My interpretation always was that there was a damaged Me 262 at Landshut (i.e. Ergolding airfield) that had to be returned to the industry for repair (in connection to the bellylanded Me 262 11053x of course).
The problem is that Landshut had nothing to do with Me 262 production or repair. All other locations given in paragraph "Rückführ-Flugzeuge" were connected somehow to the Me 262 (Lechfeld, Straubing, Memmingen, Landau).
One of the four Me 262 listed as "Rückführ-Flugzeug Memmingen-Industrie" is Werknummer 500226. Robert Forsyth wrote about that plane: "Me 262A‐1a Wk‐Nr 500226 was operated briefly by the Industrieschutzschwarm Memmingen (Memmingen test facility defense flight) before being transferred to JG 7 in February 1945..."
Wouldn't Landsberg make more sense than Landshut?

Kind regards,
Daniel

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Another photo for everyone's consideration. I see that older posts had photos which are now missing.

https://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=29456

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

It was Me 262A-2a, W.Nr.110766, Red 1, JV 44 (ex KG 51 machine), Innsbruck-Hötting, when it was standing in the cca. middle of the airfield. The Americans later moved its to the edge of the airfield, close to the road

Better photo
https://i.imgur.com/fvvX6CS.jpg

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Well Daniel

For the simple reason that nothing what our experts has written about 110531 and 110539 fits the "bill" so to speak.
110531 was damaged 30% at Lechfeldt 5 Feb 1945
110539 destroyed 28 Feb 1945 when strafed at Giebelstadt

Also thanks for showing the photo. Indeed 11053 is visible meaning there must be a final digit missing and not anything in between.

Cheers
Stig