Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Diego,

Yes I think we would all be interested in your chart on which Experten were shot down and by whom?

Thanks!

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Yes, if it happened, indeed is shamefull - teenagers and little girls raped and murdered by Soviet soldiers. :( BUT I WANT ALSO TO REMIND YOU, THAT ALSO ACCORDING TO HARTMANN HIMSELF, THOSE MONSTERS WERE IMMEDIATELY EXECUTED THE NEXT DAY, WHEN A RUSSIAN GENERAL ARRIVED TO THE AREA.
I INVESTIGATED THE MATTER, AND MY CONCLUSION IS THAT RAPING WAS NOT NEITHER TOLERATED NOR ENCOURAGED BY SOVIET COMMANDERS - WHEN DISCOVERED, THIS KIND OF CRIME WAS PUNISHED WITH FAST TRIALS AND IMMEDIATE EXECUTION.

The work of Gorbach is interesting. Thanks for quoting it!! :) In any case, it did not discard that Leytenant Pavel Evdokimov had downed Hartamnn's using his Il-2 Shturmovik like a fighter that day.
BTW, Nokose: I read in several sources that Hartmann was shot down or had to belly land 14 times. But so far I could identify only 3 of them:
5.11.1942 - downed by Il-2 rear gunner of 7 GShAP.
25.05.1943 - was apparently shot down by a LaGG-3 in a "taran" while flying Bf.109G-4 W.Nr. 14997.
20.08.1943 - probably (I have no doubt) by Il-2 pilot Pavel Evdokimov.
Nokose: Did you (or anyone) know when ocurred the remaining 11 times that he crash-landed?
Kind regards to all
Diego

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Dear Rob:

Always a pleisure. ;) What follows are some of the cases when Il-2 Shturmovik pilots shot down German aircraft, including fighters (and experten):
-24.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Bf.109F-4/R1 W.Nr.13388 Obltn. Erwin Stracnicky Staffelkapitan 2./JG 3 Experte with 35 victories
-25.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Ju.88A-4 W.Nr.5540 Uffz. Karl Stoll + 3 crewmembers 6./KG 76.
-29.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Bf.110E-2 "S9+BH" Unknown crew 1./ZG 1.
-5.09.1942 Ivan Vovkogon (299 ShAP) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.14239 Hptm. Hans Oehlschläger Stab I./JG 52.
-5.09.1942 Fiodor Zhigarin (299 ShAP) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.? Unknown crew (50% damage) 3./JG 52
-9.09.1942 Pavel S. Vinogradov (694 ShAP, 228 ShAD) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.13442 Ltn. Alfred Franke (KIA) 2./JG 53 Experte with 60 victories
-29.09.1942 Aleksandr Scherbanin (57 ShAP KBF) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.13613 Ltn. Erwin Leykauf 11./JG 54 Experte with 29 victories then, he would claim a total of 33 Taran Scherbanin KIA.
-21.02.1943 Talgat Y. Begeldinov (144 GShAP, 9 GShAD) Bf.109G-2/R6 W.Nr.13949 Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn (POW) Gruppenkomandeur II./JG 54 Experte with 108 victories
-20.08.1943 Of course the already mentioned case of Pavel Evdokimov downing Erich Hartmann.
-8.09.1943 Talgat Y. Begeldinov (144 GShAP, 9 GShAD) Ju.87D-5 W.Nr.130845 Unknown crew (30% damage) 8./StG 2.
-14.02.1945 Vasiliy Karaman (806 ShAP, 206 ShAD) Fw.190A-8 W.Nr.960282 Obltn. Otto Kittel (KIA) 2./JG 54 Experte with 267 victories
Those are only same examples (I'm still researching about this matter). But so far it seems that in many cases the Shturmovik fliers were not the preys, but instead became the hunters.
I hope this info helps you, Rob.
Diego

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Hi

Regarding the term "fraudulent", I would use this as an advancement on "overclaim", yes, Wurmheller was such a severe overclaimer that it was more than that. Do you remember the Jg27 ace who crept up behind the unit super Schwarm and found them firing-off there amo over the desert, and retuned to tell his C.O what he had seen, and you know that when they got back, it was all heavy claiming......that's fraudulence. now Jg26 and Jg2 often overlapped, attacking the same formations, when Jg26 claimed alone, it was more than quite accurate, when the wto both claimed the Allied losses simply did not match up to Luftwaffe claims, yet some Jg2 pilots were honest. Assuming that the Russian losses have been calculated correctly then Jg5 were above overclaiming, in fact overclaiming can be acquired by just being mistaking, if you think it went down are you a fraud or just plain mistaken. Another person who made outrageous claims was August Lambert, he was disliked by his C.O, jealousy, or did his C.O suspect somthing?
With Jg5 it would seem that it wasn't just get one claim two, if fact I read somewhere that this units pilots were quite happy to witness more claims than actually occurence, well in the far North anyway!
Strange thing also about Hartmann, only two u/c ever!
Perhaps we need the Russian actual losses so we can scrutinise them!

Regards

Johannes

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Dear Johannes:

Not surprisingly, both Hartmann and Lambert fought in the same place - Crimea peninsula. I barely researched about this matter, but it seems that the Soviet actual losses of 4 VA and VVS ChF in late 1943-early 1944 were not that serious like the claims of JG 52 and SchG 1 might indicate.

You are talking about the article "Pishem 8, 2 v ume" ("We write 8, but have 2 in mind"): The author clearly shows the huge overclaiming of one of the JG 5 "stars" - Rudolf Müller. Only 37 out of his 92 claims can be corroborated by Soviet records, and so did all his buddies.

It seems that Eduard Morozov (author of Vozdushnaya Bitva na Sevastopole 1941-1942 gg (Air Battle over Sevastopol 1941-42) prepares a new book about the air battles over Crimea 1943-44. It might help a lot to clarify how many losses did the Russians suffer, and to solve this discussion (at least regarding Hartmann and Albert).
Kind regards,
Diego

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Regarding his flightbook he was shot down by light russian AAA ... nothing from "Feindberührung mit IL 2" or taran :confused:.

regards
Rasmussen

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Diego: Talgat is wrong lad here. I will quote a part of research of N.Egorov and M.Bykov (sorry, in russian, have no time now to translate. May be Nokose could help?)

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

I have found incidents in Italy where they simply can't have done this, even where the claimed aircraft crashed around the Germans' own airfield. Had they searched, there would not have been enough wrecked aircraft for the claims that were allowed. They had a strong formal verification system but such systems are not always operated perfectly.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Rasmussen:

I know, that officially Leykauf himself credited his shootdown to the AAA. About this episode Christer Bergstrom says (Black Cross Red Star. Vol.3, p. 204-205): "Leykauf recalls that HE WAS PURSUING AN IL-2 AT DUBROVKA, his aircraft was severely hit by enemy groundfire, ACCORDING TO LEYKAUF, which forced him to bail out. The corresponding Soviet claim, ACCORDING TO WHICH THE IL-2 (FROM 57 SHAP/VVS KBF) THAT HAD BEEN SET AFIRE BY A BF.109 RAMMED THIS GERMAN FIGHTER, seems to be less credible."
Even I disagree with Bergstrom -I have no reason why do not believe that Scherbanin did not ramm Leyhauf, I CONSIDER THE RUSSIAN VERSION CREDIBLE- the shootdown of Leykauf occurred during a combat against Il-2s. It is not hard for me to think that Leykauf flamed Scherbanin's Il-2, and considering it finished, he then realized that was near the Soviet lines and focused in the AAA fire. Unseen to Leykauf, the wounded Scherbanin decided to ram his Shturmovik against Leykauf's Bf.109G, who in good faith thought that have been downed by flak. Leykauf would not be the first pilot who did not see what struck it, and wrongly assumed that was AAA.
Kind regards,
Diego

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Dear Evgeniy: :)

I know that other version - that Hahn had been shot down by La-5 ace Pavel Grazhdanikov of 169 IAP. But the account of Begeldinov is that vivide, that so far I prefered to credit him with that particular victory.
If you want, I myself can translate later that excrept, that you posted about Grazdanikov's victory, to share it with the other participants. I will also, if you don't mind, translate the account of Talgat Begeldinov, where he describes his battle with Hans Hahn, so we can decide which is more probable to shot down Hahn - Grazhdanikov or Begeldinov.
Unfortunatelly, I will translate both excrepts later. Today will be a very bussy day for me. :( But tomorrow you people of the forum will be able to read both accounts in English.
Kind regards, Evgeniy :)
Diego

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Hi Diego,

unfortunately this are assumptions ... and of course it's more heroic to ram the "fascist" before the crash than an simple shot down by the "fascist" (especially for an soviet pilot at this time ... the soviet clerks too). There are eyewitness reports or reports from the mentioned AAA unit known and were cross checked? I'd believe Leykauf was able to distinguish between an ram and AAA fire and to report this correct.

Best regards
Rasmussen

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

:-))

Diego,

The majority of reports from Soviet side with such vivid words as: "exploded into flames, crashed trailing heavy black smoke" etc. usualy have no backgound confirmation from German side. Hahn was surely shot down by pilots of 169 IAP, even if not by Grazhdaninov, then by Bocharov.

Please be careful of the sources you use. Stracnizky was not shot down by Danilov on August 24, 1942 and Lasarev for sure can not be a victim of Hartmann, as he collided with Pe-2 and crashed due to this reason on March 1, 1945.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Diego,

Nikita put it very clearly - many cases provided by you do not stand up to closer scrutiny (Hartmann, Hahn, Straznicky...). It would be indeed wiser not to rely on the Soviet/Russian memoir literature, which is notoriously unreliable. Otherwise, you are in risk of reviving some old myths or even creating some new ones.

Ota

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Privet, Nikita :)

My experience with Russian accounts is the opposite: I mistrust when a Soviet pilot says "I shot this aircraft down" and do not give more details. I gave more reliability if the pilot gives a lot of details. Of course I know that, if there is not corresponding loss from the other side, even if the account is vivid, it is likely an overclaim.
Certainly is quite probable that Hahn's victor was Grazhdanikov and not Begeldinov. Wait please till I translate both accounts, and we can discuss about this. Of course, it is quite probable, that you are right :)

By whom was shot down then? I used Prien as source, who listed Stracnizky downed in "Luftkampf" on 24 August 1942, and Danilov's claim matched quite closely in place and time. There were other Soviet claiminants that day, like for example 296 IAP's Yak-1 pilots Boris Yeromin and Aleksandr Solomatin, but they tangled with Bf.109Gs of I./JG 53.
Furthermore, I distrust the German loss archives. As Dánes Bárnad stated here, the Germans were much less reliable than the Russians to record losses, and that matches my experience with them. Furthermore, the racial prejudices caused that the Germans always prefered credit losses to AAA or "accidents" than to the Soviet "untermeschen" pilots. It varied on unit and period of time, but there is always a huge underestimation of losses causes by Soviet flighters.

In that case I was only quoting Khazanov, but I have Bykov's book Asy Velikoy Otechestvennoy Voyny, Samye rezultativnye liotchiki 1941-1945 gg of 2008, and of course I know that Lazaryev officially died colliding against a Pe-2.
Kind regards,
Diego

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Diego,

You do not have to translate this piece of narration, at least for me, because I have written it myself.
No matter whether report is full of details or have none of them, only matching other side records could give any result in real confirmation of a claim. Lots of details in report could have their origins in pilot's imagination.

Could I ask you a question: where did you find exact time of Stracnizky's crash and Danilov's claim? Another question is how did you get to conclusion that Yeryomin and Solomatin clashed with I/JG53, instead of JG3. And the last question could you please list other Soviet fighters claims against Bf-109s in this area this day (I could give you a hint, in general there were nine of them)
As regards to loss records, I believe you have got Denes in a wrong way, how you can compare this if you do not see original records from one side and you know that the majority of orginal files from another side has been lost?

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

It was "Fifi" Stahlschmidt of 2.JG/27 who "crept up on" that Schwarm. They were making fraudulent claims and yet you don't name them!
Vogel,Sawallisch,Bendert and Stigler of 4.JG27. They got away with it despite a going over from the Gruppenkommandeur (Gustav Roedel). They were however "seperated".
Russ.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

This is not what I've said. I was only pointing out that the sample of VVS loss records I was shown are even more complete than the Luftwaffe ones. Nothing else.

If, on ideological grounds you distrust the Luftwaffe loss records compiled for INTERNAL use, not intended for publicity, then you're left with virtually nothing to rely on from the German (or Axis) side.
With the same logic, you have to distrust the Soviet loss records, too, as ideologically, the two totalitarian regimes were not that far apart...

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Regarding the JG 27 incident, my uncle was 'Abschussoffizier' with JG 27 at the time, and I knew Stigler quite well. This story was not the most popular topic, and was not enthusiastically discussed. Didn't Sawallisch commit suicide over this?

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Yes, of course it is more heroic if the Soviet flier rammed the "fascist". And I do not discard the chance that there is an embelishment of the event to give other Soviet pilots "an example to follow", or an attempt to cover excesive losses with an "heroic act". But that is also an assumption.
In the other hand, it seems to me that you consider that such event (intentional ramming) is immediately unlikely, like if a Russian airmen would be unable to perform such a deed, and if it would be always preferable to believe a German account than a Russian one. If it is the case, I disagree. And if it is not (if you give the same reliability to the Russians than the Germans), I apologyze for missunderstanding you.
Regarding Leykauf being able to distinguish between a ramming and AAA fire: How could he for sure distinguish between a ram and AAA? Unless he had been hit by flak or rammed before. But so far the German loss records do not show that such a thing had happened. Of course I might be wrong.
Kind regards
Diego

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Hi, guys:
For the ones who don't speak Russian, I translate into English the text kindly posted by Evgeniy, accounting the air combat where likely the La-5 ace Pavel Grazhdanikov (169 IAP) shot down Bf.109G ace Hans "Assi" Hahn on 21 February 1943.

Shortly before 9:00 hs from Rebiltsy airodrome took off six Bf.109Gs, led by Gruppenkomandeur II./JG 54, Major [Hans] Hahn. The mission of the 6-planes group was freie jagd (free hunt) and to seach for Soviet aircraft attacking the German columns retreating from Demyansk. The area asigned for hunting was at the west of Demyansk-Ramushevo. About that same time (+ 2 hs Moskow time, the time difference in Winter) from aerodrome Zaborove scrambled six fighters La-5 of 169 IAP, led by Kapitan Chislov, with the mission of patrolling the area of the cauldron.
According to the report of Hahn's wingman, Oberleutnant [Max] Stotz, kontakt with the group of 8 La-5 took place at 9:09 hs, in the southern end of the cauldron, at an altitude of 2500 meters. The pair Hahn-Stotz separated of the group and jumped the Soviet aircraft with an altitude advantage of 200 meters. According to the memories of Hahn, they attacked a group of Aircobras, after what Hahn shot down one, which blew up in mid-air, and the aircraft attacked by Stotz smoked heavily, and the pilot bailed out. According to our data, in the first attack was downed and died Starshiy Leytenant Vorovyev, and Mladshiy Leytenant Balandin could abandon his flaming aircraft in parachute. After that both groups, our and German ones, scattered and the combat continued. Stotz lost track of his leader and was dragged to maneuvering dogfight with the Russian leader, after what to the damaged Chislov's airplane was necessary disengage to return to his aerodrome. Hahn attacked Grazhdanikov, but doing so he himself exposed to the attack of Grazhdanikov's wingman, Starzhyy Serzhant Davydov. Hahn's fight was observed by the remaining four German fighters. When they saw that Hahn fought alone against two Soviet airplanes, to help him rushed pair of Oberfeldwebel Repple. According to the report of Repple himself: "I wanted to atack the La-5 who flew higher. But I saw that already was under attack of a Bf.109. I identified this aircraft, like the one belonging to Major Hahn. Then I began to climb/gain altitude. Soon after that I spotted two airplanes, and realized that they were La-5s. I dived towards them and realized that they pursued a Bf.109." However Repple was late, Grazhdanikov and Davydov managed to struck the Bf.109. Repple could fire a long barrier burst, after what the two La-5s evaded attack and went to the south. The damaged Bf.109 began to set the course in north-western direction. According to Repple it had not visible damage.
Hahn could not reach his base. For the last time linked up with Stotz and radioed the following: "Stotz, they taught dad a good lesson. I must perform a emergency landing." After that he landed near the road from Novaya Derevnya, south-west of Demyansk, not far from a passing columns of reinforcements.
Hahn was brought to Zaborovye, where he met pilots of 32 GIAP and 169 IAP.
After that was transfered to Vypolzovo, where he was interrogated several times."

Tomorrow will be very bussy, but in the night I will reply all remaining posts, specially the ones to Nikita Egorov and Dénes Bernád (Mr. Bernád, I apologyze that I misspelled your name earlier).
Kind regards,
Diego

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

I totally forgot I initiated this thread and have not been back until now--I'm amazed and gratified at the large number of responses and active discussion, and even more so with the new information about Hartmann and other Luftwaffe aces.

Johannes--I had no idea Hartmann had such a poor reputation among his comrades and that he is suspected of being a prominent overclaimer. You are right, The Blond Knight of Germany has long been my primary source of information about Hartmann and it certainly idealizes him. Interestingly, although I certainly can't explain, when I read the uncredited interview w/Hartmann 1-2 days before my initial post, which was motivated by the interview, I sensed for the 1st time that the real Hartmann was different from the character portrayed in Blond Knight, just not sure how at the time. My vague impression was Hartmann was a harder and less charitable and compassionate person than Blond Knight had led me to believe.

I am perhaps an "ugly American" who is not fluent in languages besides English--and perhaps some could dispute I am fluent in English! :p Hence, growing up in the late 1970's and early 1980's, the primary books about Luftwaffe fighter pilots accessible to me were the much-maligned and discredited Toliver/Constable Luftwaffe fighter aces book and the Hartmann biography Blond Knight of Germany. Only recently over the past 10 years have I become aware of more detailed and creditable information on Luftwaffe fighter pilots in general and Hartmann in particular. I know the hard-core enthusiast may scoff at and refute my comments by pointing out I could have taught myself sufficient rudimentary German to read the German-language references, or at least pored over them with a German-English dictionary in hand. I can't say such an enthusiast would be wrong, I can just say for various reasons, mainly a busy career with a heavy night/weekend call schedule and perhaps insufficient moral fiber and motivation, I did not do so.

I am happy Bernd Barbas is writing a Barkhorn biography. Not being critical, just making an observation--in a way, it's a shame that the Barkhorn and other biographies are being written well after most Luftwaffe veterans have passed away. Hindsight is 20/20, of course, and I also realize that writing about Luftwaffe and Axis personnel and histories was not looked upon favorably for many years after WWII. I know the Toliver/Constable tomes had little documentation or rigid research basis, but they served one valuable service--being the first substantial English-language books to cover Luftwaffe fighter pilots. These tomes further developed my burgeoning interest in the Luftwaffe. I recall Galland, in his foreword for the Blond Knight book, thanked the authors and acknowledged the role played by the authors' Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe in edifying much of the English-speaking world about and negating to an extent their negative images about Luftwaffe fighter pilots.

Reading the new information that provide glimpses about Hartmann's true and perhaps discredited reputation and character, I am very curious about one stat attributed to Hartmann--did he truly lose only one wingman (bomber pilot Capito, who parachuted to safety) in his 1400+ flight career, or is this another myth?

I apologize if my comment about contemporary biographies was construed as unjustly critical--that was not my intent at all, I was simply bemoaning the fact that few Luftwaffe veterans are alive and fewer still can/will contribute to these books. Thanks much to all who responded for a very lively and informative discussion containing much interesting new information and speculation.

Ken

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

I know he disapeared on a test flight shortly afterwards. I believe it was over the sea and his body washed up sometime later. I'm at work and can't check but I hadn't heard that this was a suicide. He was the highest claimer of the four.
Russ

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Russ, I can't remember where I read that this was a suicide. Certainly the whole episode demands more intense study IMO.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

On a previous thread Erwin Sawallisch's name was listed but his victories up through Russia were verified. I noticed that while he was serving there with Stab/JG77 (listed in JFV 6/II) he shot down a MiG-3 on the 15Jul41 for his 7th victory (no other information of time and location). He was the only one in the German units in the south claiming a MiG-3 that day. In Denes Bernad's book "From Barbarossa to Odessa Volume 1" it has St.Lt. Alexander Pokrishkin of the 55 IAP going down after a reconn. mission into the swamp 3km N. of Grozeshti. Wondered if this was possibly Sawallisch's MiG-3. Maybe Denes can give us his opinion since his research was in that area.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

I don't know what Hartmann's real character was like. Of course I'm sure it was much more complex than portrayed in "The Blond Knight of Germany." However his reputation has not been discredited by any hard facts; only rumors, speculation, suspicions, and faulty research (Khazanov). I, for one, welcome any new proven evidence, from a historical perspective, to better understand who these pilots were. Whomever the "true" Hartmann was, until speculations and rumors can be backed by actual facts, calling him, or any other historical figure, a fraudster or questioning his character is intellectually and morally dishonest.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Amen! documented proof, proof, proof, ad infinitum!

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

So called "Experten-Schwarm" was active frauding quite short, 1-2 weeks of August 42 I suppose. Name of group's leader was Oblt. Vögl, he was staka 4./JG 27 and the only officer among them. However, Fiffi Stahlschmidt spotted 5 Bf 109s shooting into the sand, additional pilot was Uffz. Just (he became POW at end of that month).

I've met three opinions connected with death of Sawallisch - suicide, Bf 109 failure during check-out flight or even mechanics' revenge after wasting their work. His body was washed ashore next day.

Regards,
Nef

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Anyone's archives may be incomplete or inaccurate for all the usual reasons of human fallibility. I know little about the Eastern Front but please bear in mind that it was important in ANY air force to report losses because that was the only way a unit could get replacement aircraft. I have seen several messages from higher Luftwaffe commands to units demanding explanations for day-to-day discrepancies in teir strength and serviceability figures. I would infer from this that the matter was taken very seriously in the Luftwaffe.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Michael,

According to documents of 20 SAD this was belly landing due to orientation lost and fuel shortage.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Hartmann is a contradictory person. From one side it is evident that he overclaimed to a certain extent. The reason for that is unclear for the moment, was it personal ambitions or he simply did not care to observe the results of his attacks, due to speed disengagement. I saw some of the reports from our side of clashes with what was supposed to be Hartmann's Me-109. Everywhere reports say: immediate attack from above at high speed and immediate disengage without starting combat. This is a common tactics for almost all German aces and in this case real success is in marksmanship. Many of the attacked planes were not shot down but shot up, hit by one or several bullets without serious damage inflicted. Many were not hit at all. The majority of such claims were credited to Hartmann as confirmed, though the counterpart was not destoryed completely or in some cases not hit either. He prefered to attack only fighters, vulnerable to sudden interception, enjoying the superiority against ill-trained Soviet fighter pilots and inferior Soviet tactics. Thus, we have only 23 bombers and close-support planes on his account that is only 6,5 % of his score...
From another side his impeccable conduct in captivity. Many personalities were broken and somehow sided with Soviets. Hartmann never accepted any deals. I have not seen his POW dossier (It is closed for general access) but I spoke to the person, who works with POWs documents and he confirmed that almost all that written in "Blond Knight" regarding his experience in camps is more or less true, except strongly exaggerated images of the surrounding people.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Nikita, Thanks for the answer on the above question on Pokrishkin.

I believe Hartmann stated he was a bad shot in "The Blond Knight of Germany" which is why he bore in close to fire. If your a bad shot a prolong dogfight might not be to your advantage.

In Valeny Romanenko's book "Airacobras enter Combat" he stated that he thought that Hartmann might have shot down on 15Apr43 (he listed a time of 19:00?) one of the two P-39's flown by St.Lt M. Petrov and Serz. Bezbabnov of the 45 IAP (100 GIAP). No location and the time 19:00 seems to be way off from the German times. He also gave two other P-39's same unit shot down at 13:00. Tony Wood's list has the following.

Hartmann 15:33 85192
Mato Dukovac 15/JG52 14:50 Krimskaya
Josef Zwernemann III/JG52 12:52 85753
Lt. Wolf Ettel 4/JG3 15:30 86834
Lt Hans Reiff 8/JG3 14:48 3km SE of Neledshskaya
Lt. Helmut Haberda 5/JG52 uk hrs 85152

Is Hartmann's one of these? And was this a overclaim day for P-39's?

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Michael,

Well, I have not yet researched this day in details, too many fault claims. First of all St. Bezbabnov was shot down on P-40 and evidently by Waldemar Eyrich of II/JG3. Valery, in his book, it was one of the first books with an attempt to match some two sided info, apparantly omitted damaged Aircobras. In general 216 IAD suffered the following losses: 16 GIAP two were shot up and belly landed, including Maj. Kryukov chief navigator of the regiment, 45 IAP two Aircobras were shot down of S/L Petrov and St. Sapyan and two more made emergency landings due to battle damage, by S/L Dmitry Glinka and St. Popov plus P-40 of Bezbabnov was shot down. From that List Petrov's P-39 was attaked twice, first it was damaged and left the combat, then finished off by another Me-109...So, we have 7 lost Aircobras (2 irrevocably+5 damaged to different extent) and 9 German claims on them. I will check if 298 IAP had any more losses that day.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Nikita, I also have the same approach when studying a particular air combat: list all aircraft of all sides, no matter if destroyed, damaged, or broke combat due to technical fault, as often the real cause is improperly listed.

If a pilot claimed a victory and the damaged enemy aircraft crept back to own territory, that can still be regarded as a justified claim, as at least the target was hit and a certain amount of damage caused (N.B. this total number added individually is often higher than the official statistics released for that day or certain time period!).
And, of course, not forgetting claims by flak crews, too, if it was the case.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

To me, more information is better than less, so if the author tells me about damaged a/c and mechanical losses so much the better. Also, I agree that damaged (but repaired) a/c provide an *explanation* for overclaims of a/c destroyed, but are not IMO a 'confirmation'. Anyway as long as the author provides the info for the reader to make the decision himself, it's fine.

But I am most curious about this quote:
"as often the real cause is improperly listed. "
This relates to earlier exchange about 'distrust' of German archives, where you seemed to say your statement about them had been mischaracterized, but then this statement seems to somewhat support 'distrust'. Can you explain more, perhaps with examples, causes being mistated, and how we know this is true?

I've seen almost verbatim statements, by the same person actually! that US records in Korea are to be 'distrusted' because, among other reasons, loss causes were often mistated, it is alleged. But in fairly extensive research in those records with close comparison to detailed MiG claims from Soviet records, I have not found that. Both sides virtually always agree when and where the air combats of the day occurred and which general type of UN a/c was involved (swept or straight wing jet or prop; these broad categories were almost never mistaken for one another, it seems). And, losses of similar a/c type on the UN side attiributed to non-air combat causes were usually of different units than the ones involved in the air combat, at different times of day, and usually documented with additional details that would seem preposterous to compile in secret if just made up....why bother? (and I'm speaking strictly of then-secret records, not contemporary press releases). Also, I'm not speaking of cases where a/c were lost in known contact with enemy a/c but the cause was positively stated as something else: that's also rare, 'unk' losses in contact with enemy a/c were generally grouped with known air combat losses. As with any rule there are exceptions to the above, mechanical cases where it's not possible to absolutely determine whether there was also contact w/ enemy a/c by that particular flight, etc. but it's a pretty small %. Yet it's often stated, it's even 'internet conventional wisdom' that the loss causes were 'often' or even usually or systematically mistated in that case.

Can you compare and contrast this to the situations you are speaking of? wrt 'real cause improperly listed'. It's a pretty far from Hartmann, but loss record debates tend to be interconnected, because proof that such fudging of loss causes was done in one case makes it more plausible that it was done in other cases.

Joe

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Hi everybody,

could it not be that most cases of overclaiming were in fact cases of over-self-confidence? I imagine that the experts were quite convinced they could tell when an opponent was finished (cf. Obleser's assertion above), particularly when they saw pieces coming off their target or smoke and fire developing. I have read of several occasions when a later expert was shot down while watching his victim crash, so from then on he abandoned that habit and also told young pilots not to indulge in it.
I suspect the weakest point in Luftwaffe claims is that probably in most cases they were confirmed by the wingmen. These were mostly subordinates of their leaders, and it must have taken some courage to contradict those, all the more when the wingman did not know for sure that it was not a victory he was supposed to confirm.

Regards,
klemchen

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Hi.

I think that we also have to try to find a common and relatively broad definition of what to call a 'kill'.

If an aircraft return to an airfield controlled by own forces, damaged beyond repair and scrapped, I know that especially on the US side when considering the bomber forces this would not be defined as a 'kill'.

If a German fighter shot up and bellylanding in France under German occupation, this would be a 'kill' as seen from the western allies side.

In the first example, if the attack by fighters or even Flak damage, happened before the bomber reached it's intended target, it was forces to jettison it's bombload and try to make it back to base... still not a 'kill' I guess?

There are countless similar situations that could be discussed on all sides.

I believe that the approach to try to gather information on all aspects of given operations and dates, taking into account all possibilities with regards to misidentifications, misunderstandings and the fact that the people involved were in extreme situations, is the correct one.

We must also in my opinion stop trying to win the war again and again, there were atrocities and horrible acts commited on all sides, none of the combattants involved have an unblemished moral track record, not before the second world war, and not after. It seems that a lot of people forget that war is about destruction of the enemies resources, both human and material, in the most effective way possible. And a major point that most people living in the western democraties today seems to forget is that the information available, and possibility to make a 'morally' correct decision in the beginning of the 1940ies were limited. Refusing to obey an order in wartime usually has a severe reaction from the establishment, in the US, in the UK, in Soviet federation, Germany or my native Norway for that case - death sentence.

Hopefully some food for thought.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

On page 91 and 92 of Kurt Braatz's biog of Walter Krupinski, there is a commentary on the circumstances of Hartmanns' claim, near Taman and a single P-39, which Krupinski coached Hartmann to shoot down.

Regards

Russell

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Hi again, guys:
I apologyze for not replying your posts sooner. I was extremely bussy, much more than I anticipated. Now I reply your posts.
Dear Dénes:

Even when this is only retoric, I ask you: if Luftwaffe's loss records are less complete than the VVS ones, It does not mean you cannot fully trust (RELY) on them?
I know that you that there is a difference between to say that a set of archives are uncomplete, and to say that one cannot rely on them. But unreliability is a logic comsequence of uncompleteness - if they are so uncomplete, How can one to be sure that there are no more losses than the ones mentioned in such archives, or even that the cause of loss mentioned there is the actual one?

Assuming that Comunism is a totalitarian regime, COMUNISM IS NOT IN THE SAME LEVEL THAN NAZISM. WHY? BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING THAT COMMUNISM NEVER HAD, BUT NAZISM HAD FROM ITS SAME ROOTS: RACISM. THIS IS THE IDIOLOGICAL COMPONENT OF NAZISM (AND NONE ELSE), WHICH MAKES ME SKEPTIC OF THE GERMAN LOSS RECORDS.
Most of the German war actions in the East were led right from the start by the premise that the "Russians" were untermeschen and they did not deserve any respect. And many of the Luftwaffe members were known by sharing that point of view. Many of them changed their mind (e.g. Trautloft and Lutzow) but many others stubbornly kept loyal to Nazism and its racism - the top example was Hans-Ulrich Rudel, who in his biograhy After all repeated over and over again the same slogans about the Russians being masses from the East (even when sometimes conceded some merits to them, like to admitt the aiming skills of the Russian women operating the AAA batteries in Stalingrad). Hartmann himself was an example. Initially he understimated his Soviet opponents, and his mentor Alfred Grislawski many times reprimend him saying: "Do you think the Russians doesn't know how to shoot?" Summarizing: Racism and understimation of the Slavs (and comsequently the Soviet military capabilities) remained at all levels of the Whermacht along the whole war, even when they were already extremely evident. ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE, THAT SUCH UNDERESTIMATION DID NOT AFFECT GERMAN LOSS RECORDS? CAN YOU ASSURE THAT THE GERMANS DID NOT PREFER TO CREDIT LOSSES TO ACCIDENTS THAN TO SOVIET PILOTS BECAUSE OF SUCH RACISM?
If your experience dealing with Luftwaffe loss records is that racism did not affect them, that in them there is not an understimation of Soviet fighter pilots, please share it with us. In my case perhaps might change my skepticism ;)
Kind regards, always a pleasure to discuss with you :)
Diego

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Nikita:
Once again, I apologyze for replying to your posts that later. The scholar year began shortly before here in Argentina, and I have my hands full with my work as teacher. Furthermore, I am organizing the visit of my Russian girlfriend to my country (she will meet my family) and I want that everything will be allright. But tonight and tomorrow I'll have some free time and answer your replies:

Ponyal (Understood). No ya sdelal dlya vsex chitatelyax, kotoryx ne mogut ponimat' russkiy yazyk ;) (But I did for all readers, that cannot understand Russian ;) )

But how can you fully match on the other side's records are that uncomplete as German ones? I fully agree with you that to research the opponent's loss records give the real confirmation (or ultimate discarding) of a certain claim, and I also know that veterans' memories can fool even themselves (assuming good faith).
But when one finds that many gaps as one can find in Luftwaffe loss records, that a loss is not mentioned there it does not mean it did not occur. Furthermore, even knowing that veterans' memoirs can be very unaccurate (and knowing that is always better to back them up with official documents), Why to discard veterans' testimonies that quickly? After all, THEY WERE THERE, not you, neither I nor most of researchers.

Regarding Stracnizky-Danilov: I admitt that time I did not find, but Prien place Stracnizky in Pl.Q. 49161, which is (if I did not misplaced it) over Stalingrad outskirts, N of the city. Bergstrom indicates that most of 265 Soviet sorties that day (specially Shturmoviks) were N-NW of the city to cut supplies to General Hube's 16th Pazerdivision. The place matched.
Regarding Yeryomin and Solomatin: they scored victories in the same combat, and it was logical to assume that they scored them against aircraft of the same unit. There were no two losses in JG 3, but there were two in I./JG 53:
-Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 14161 Uffz. Gustav Perl (MIA, Experte with 12 victories)
-Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13552 Uffz. Heinz Seig (WIA, Experte with 15 victories) (Engine failure?)
Other Soviet claims that day that I know (all over the city itself):
-Ivan P. Motornyy Yak-1 512 IAP, 220 IAD Ju.88 (probably Ju.88D-1 W.Nr.1680 4 KIAs 3.(F)/121)
-Grigoriy K. Gultyayev Yak-1 788 IAP, 102 IAD PVO Ju.87 (probably Ju.87D W.Nr.2432 Crew Unknown 75% written off 1./StG 77) (Accident?)
-Ivan M. Dzyuba Yak-1 12 IAP, 288 IAD Bf.109 (probably Bf.109E-7 W.Nr.6392 Fw. Hans Beruwka MIA 3./SchG 1) (Cause unknown)
That makes 6 identified claims. Evidently there are 3 additional claims that I ignore. Please, if I wrongly cross-referenced German losses with Soviet claiminants, correct my mistakes, and if you want share with us your findings. I am willing to learn from my mistakes and correct them.

PROBABLY YOU ARE RIGHT ON THAT, NIKITA.
BTW, Yevgeny Velichko told me that you are working on a book about the Air Battle of Stalingrad. Congratulations!! :D It is already in the Russian book stores? I want to buy it! :)
Kind regards,
Diego

PS: I will repeat this post in a new thread "Soviet air victories over Stalingrad" in the "Soviet and Allied air forces" forum, to do not desvirtuate the original topic (Hartmann's). If you consider that this is the right thing to do, reply there.

Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions
 

Nikita:
One more reason for me to assume that Straznicky was Danilov's victim is the fact that Straznicky flew a Bf.109F-4/R1, that is an gondola-armed Messerschmitt, usually tasked with the mission to intercept and destroy the heavily armoured Il-2s.
Kind regards
Diego