Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Andy,

I have just checked my archive for this Lysander at Neuvilly.

I have a complete report from Red Cross with full detail of that Lysander. But there is a big problem because the Lysander I have at Neuvilly is NOT P/O Clifford’s one (buried at Neuvilly) but LAC Bettany’s one (buried at Landrecies)!

So to sum up at Neuvilly we have:

1. Hurricane No. P3533 : Unknow pilot. this one is confirmed by many documents.
2. Hurricane No. P2555 : (identified apparently as P/O Allen) for that one I have not one single information.
3. Lysander No. ??? : LAC Bettany, I have a full report with a firm identification as for instance a letter of his mother of April 25 1940 found among other things.
4. Lysander no. ??? : P/O Clifford for that one I have not one single information.

I find those identifications in Red at Neuvilly weird… Just a general feeling.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

The Red Cross report says the other airman in P/O Bettany’s Lysander run away from the crash site wounded.

But by checking British archive, LAC Bettany and P/O Clifford were in the same aircraft.

So P/O Clifford died near Landercies : one unique Lysander and not two…

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

So to sum up

1. LAC Bettany buried at Neuvilly (in the place where is buried actually P/O Clifford at Neuvilly) : I have the full report from Red Cross who identified the dead body at Neuvilly as Bettany and not Clifford.

2.P/O Clifford buried at Landrecies (in the place where is buried actually LAC Bettany at Landrecies) : the one mentioned in the Red Report leaving the crash site wounded and finally died at a hospital at Landrecies.

Identifications are wrongs according to my Red Cross report.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

So, your Red Cross evidence is that the graves of Clifford and Bettany are switched? If I understand you correctly, then you have the wrong headstones over the graves?? Clifford is Bettany and vice-versa?

I cannot add anything of any substance, I'm afraid, just to say that it might be as well to submit your information and evidence to the MOD here in the UK. I'm sure they will have a look at these cases and refer the matter on to the AHB and examine Cas. files if appropriate. If this results in confirmation then they will, as a matter of course, notify the CWGC to change the headstones.

It does seem very strange, I must say.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Très cher Andy,

Absolutely for Bettany at Neuvilly…

But those French documents could be very wrong... I do not ask anything to anybody and absolutely not changing the headstone. This document from Red Cross is just a stone to put on the way to the truth…

If you have anything to add, I would be very pleased to read it… There are many many historical mistakes specially for Battle of France...

Bye


Arnaud

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Fascinating and intriguing.

There seem to be many mysteries in and around Neuvilly!

I would suggest you submit a report with supporting evidential documents to the MOD.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Arnaud

Did you submit those details to the MOD/JCCC in the UK?

I'd be interested, by the way, to know the source of the documents you have scanned and posted here. Can you share that information with us?

Meanwhile, I was in the area last week so called in at Poix-du-Nord Cemetery and took a photograph of the (current) headstone above Fg Off D H Allen's grave pending its replacement with a named headstone.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Andy,

Many congratulations in seeing this case through to a most satisfactory conclusion. The family will, I know, be delighted with the outcome. Good job - well done to all concerned.

PS I now have a new shovel.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Hello,

I have too a new shovel but French historians are banned to dig aircraft by DRAC Nord - Pas-de-Calais. It seems so easy for you, British historians, to dig a/c in the North of France. You are so lucky. But this DRAC Nord - Pas-de-Calais is not fair with French historians. I do not understand this politic against French historians... But I confirm to people in the world: French historians want also to work on that kind of subject. But unfortunately doors are closed for us.

I have worked on the Hurricane at Neuvilly and could not identify this pilot. This is indeed a Hurricane No. P3533 shot down around May 18th 1940: no doubt. But what about the pilot? How did you identify him? I do not trust 100 % a/c number to identify a pilot, but trust you and the RAF...

You dig this aircraft and have information... So would it be possible to have some details given evidence to identify this pilot. I have a direct witness saying that Allen was shot down in Belgium so I am lost...

I hope you could give us some more useful details.

Thank you for helping.

Bye

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Hi Arnaud

What you say is most intertesting.

However, in the case of Fg Off Derek Allen DFC we worked on the excavation with the Mayor of Neuvilly, the Gendarmes and the CWGC. Whilst remains were found (and the number P3533) the investigation into the notion that these might be the remains of Derek Allen led to an investigation by MOD/AHB.

In the event, this turned up a link to the grave at Poix du Nord and the MOD were able to confirm that this was certainly the grave of Allen. The story is more complex than that, but if you let me have your e-mail address I will send you the full story.

As to working in Pas de Calais/Nord, we are now aware that there are problems with this.

After a recent recovery when we found the remains of Sgt W J Smith RAAF problems have arisen with DRAC who claim we did not have the correct authorisation, notwithstanding the fact that we worked through the Mayor and with his authority. As far as we were concrned, everything was done correctly but a formal "investigation" is now underway. This is against a background of the MOD having no problems with this exacation, and with the CWGC and Australian authorities satisfied that we acted properly and correctly as well as the Smith family being absolutely delighted. DRAC are less than delighted, apparently, and are being very negative.

I do not want to say any more about the Sgt Smith case at this stage but I would add that in our work in France we have always striven to act correctly and have always done so through the local Mayor from whom we have always gained consent.

Also, I would add that we are happy and willing to work with French groups and researchers as we feel that a joint effort on some projects would be of mutual benefit. I regret that a certain private organisation in Pas de Calais are opposed to our work and openly hostile. I am rather of the view that only this organisation are permitted to work in Pas de Calais by DRAC, but this is neither fair nor reasonable on other French or UK researchers. It seems Pas de Calais is "closed" to all except those favoured by DRAC in the region and I have also had a message saying that I am not even "allowed" to research incidents in the area or to do even non-archaeological field work. Oh really? Anyway, it is a matter I have now taken up formally with my local Member of The European Parliament. (MEP)

I am puzzled as to what the real legal position is (if there is one?) because nobody seems able to tell us - not even DRAC! Anyway, we had not realised that other French groups could not work there and had begun to think that this was just slightly anti-British, although we hesitated to think so, let alone to say it.

What is the position elsewhere in France? May I assume that DRAC is not a problem elsewhere? I would like to know!

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Hello,

I have many Hurricane to investigate in the region Nord – Pas-de-Calais. But as the « Direction Région des Affaires Culturelles de la région Nord - Pas de Calais » forbid to French historians to make any historical researches on aircraft shot down in this région, I am afraid I can’t help you much with this case at Neuvilly. What a pity not only for French historians but also for history.

If the Royal Air Force or anyone in Great-Britain or in France (Armée de l’Air) support French historians to change this DRAC position from Nord – Pas-de-Calais, it would be a big improvement for aviation history. This is urgent because witnesses are not as big in number as it used to be.

If we could work peacefully in Nord – Pas-de-Calais, it would be so easy to have answers to our questions about aircraft shot down in May and June 1940.

For the missing pilot buried at Poix du Nord with May 18th 1940 written on the stone: I have information confirming that this body does not come from Neuvilly but from Poix du Nord:
1. I have a red cross report that at Poix du Nord a English a/c was shot down indeed at Poix du Nord on May 18th 1940: pilot dead and buried in the cemetery.
2. I have made researches at that village by letter (French historians are banned in this region): I know where this a/c was shot down at Poix du Nord. I have witnesses saying that this a/c was shot down indeed on May 18th 1940 at about 12.00 am. I have the name of the person who took this body from the crash site to cemetery at Poix du Nord.

I am fully opened to R.A.F. or any people, but I need some supports! I work for more than 20 years on losses during only 2 months: May and June 1940. I am asking for French aviation historians to be in FREE in FRANCE. I am also asking for British aviation historians to be FREE in France. French and British historians could work together indeed and I have already worked with great pleasure with British teams (Billy Drake, Michael Smith, Paul Richey digs...).

We and I live in a country where three words are important: Liberté, égalité, fraternité.

Yours sincerely

Arnaud Gillet




P.S: Bon courage à tous mes amis historiens en France et aussi en Grande-Bretagne spécialisés en aviation militaire qui rencontrent tous ces difficultés dans le Nord – Pas-de-Calais... Nous ne sommes pas libres dans le Nord! Vive notre très chère liberté...

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Arnaud

I was pleased and encouraged to read your e-mail.

As regards to the Poix-du-Nord burial, yes, we know that the body did not come from Neuvilly. As I explained previously, it is a rather convoluted story. So, Arnaud, please e-mail me and I will be delighted to mail to you a copy of my book "Finding The Fallen" in which you will find the full story of Derek Allen. However, you obviously have bits of the story that are a still mystery and unknown to us.

Perhaps you should try to come to the re-dedication ceremony for Derek Allen's headstone? The family will be there and I am sure they will be delighted to hear the information you have. I had heard that the aircraft of Allen had fallen on a house, but this may not be correct.

I look forward to your e-mail.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Arnaud

I have re-read your post.

I am utterly baffled by why anyone even researching this subject should be "banned" in the region - although your comments mirror what has emerged these last weeks. By who's order, edict, regulation, code or legislative process has such work been banned? Has Pas de Calais/Nord declared itself outside of the EU and written its own rule book? Or is it just a regional law? It must, surely, otherwise be complete nonsense but utterly astonishing that, apparently, DRAC should declare that nobody is allowed to research (let alone engage in any excavation or recovery work) without their permission - which they are not likely to give. I have been telling myself that something has been lost in translation here. Now, from your comments, it sems to be correct.

I am more than lost for words, especially as one local private enthusiast team ARE allowed to do such research, hand in glove with DRAC, but all others (French, British and an official Dutuch team) have all been forbidden. Worse, that private French team have chosen to demean our work in the French press calling us 'amateurs', 'pirates' and that we have 'been banned from this work in the UK which is why we have come to France'. On the latter point, I would just say that last week we did a UK dig with the MOD involved and present. The week before, we did another excavation in the UK working in conjunction with an MOD archaeologist and team of British Army soldiers undergoing post-injury rehabilitation after being wounded in Afghanistan. Banned? I don't think so. That same newspaper (probably fuelled by the same private French group) rather disingenuously stated that we "...had not obtained permission from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for the dig". How disingenuous and dishonestly slippery of the newspaper to state this, and present a situation which did not and does not exist. No, of course we didn't get CWGC approval. Why? Because we had no need to and, in any event, it is not in the CWGC gift, remit or charter to either grant or deny "permission". What rubbish.

I am afraid that much of this can only be put down to small minded and petty jealousy of a just a small and insignificant minority. Those involved should instead work towards a common goal and work co-opertatively together. To do otherwise is disrespectful, in my view, to the memory of men like Derek Allen and Sgt W J Smith. If these people do not wish to do so, then they should stand aside, keep quiet and allow those who wish to work in this field to do so freely, and to work together - French and British researchers. Not against each other. Meanwhile, DRAC Nord/Pas de Calais, should explain exactly what the rules are and how, and to whom, a request for permission to carry out such work can be made. To date they have declined to do so.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

This is a mean regional law erected by mean people to protect in Nord - Pas-de-Calais one or two French persons...

Equality between citizens, in this region, is not fact which is shameful... But I do not care at all, I don’t live there.

This region is the first victim. In the future, when all witnesses are dead and information lost for ever, young people will have then only one person to blame : the DRAC - Nord Pas de Calais : the worst administrative service I have ever been in contact...

Believe me or not: they thought that aircraft pieces is worst a lot of money. This is perhaps right in England (I don’t really know), but in France it is worth nothing.

Bon courage

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Arnaud

Thank you for that informative post.

On 19 April the funeral service of Sgt W J Smith RAAF will take place in France with his family from Australia present. The family are delighted at this outcome. Meanwhile, against that positive background, it is understood that enquiries by the authorities are ongoing with the possibility remaining of some legal action and who, apparently, would have prevented the discovery and identification of Sgt W J Smith.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

The dedication ceremony for the new headstone to Fg Off Derek Allen DFC will take place at Poix-du-Nord Cemetery on Friday 20 July at 2pm. The ceremony to be conducted by the RAF/MOD and with approximately twenty five family members present.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Andy,

I followed this thread with many interest and have got a big problem ...

Following your informations ( and probably the report of the french mayor ), the ALLEN's P2555 crashed at POIX-du-Nord on 18th may 1940 between 6 h 30 - 7 h 00 AM ( about 12.00 PM for Arnaud ). The date on the tomb is 18th may 1940 dated. The 85th Sqn operated in this zone on 18th may.

I suppose you know this links :

http://ivonov.in/www.dailymail.co.uk...shot-down.html

There is a very interesting telegram sent to ALLEN's family. Have a look at the the little paper upside, dated 17th may 1940 ( "3.17.1940", but you must of course read "5.17.1940", the "3" is a "5" ). Then, this telegram was sent on 17th may 1940 to LEICESTER. Probably on the evening, when the post office of LEICESTER was yet closed because, received at 08.04 AM on 18th may 1940 ( see the two red and black stamps, on the left and right sides ).

Then, how explain the death of ALLEN at POIX-DU-NORD on 18th may 1940 with a telegram sent to his family a day before ? I don't understand any more.

Best regards.

Christophe

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Christophe

This is certainly a complex case, but I hope that I can help explain. To assist, I will attach a copy of the telegram.

First, I think you misunderstand the numbers and date at the top of the telegram: 3 17 1940. This is not intended to represent 17 5 1940 as you suggest. It has never been the convention in the UK, and neither is it today, to express a date such as 17 May 1940 as 5.17.1940. This is an American convention and not one ever used, to my knowledge, by the British. In just the same way, our American cousins talk about 9/11. In "English speak" this would really be 9 November, not 11 September! In any event, the typed numbers you talk about clearly include a 3...not a 5.

Let me expand a little on the detail of the telegram.

It is clear that the RAF and Air Ministry were in a muddle about the loss of Allen. This is not at all uncommon in relation to casualties in France at this time.

What we know is that the family were in receipt of a telegram on 18 May saying that Derek was reported as missing as the result of air operations on 17 May and it can only be concluded that this telegram was in relation to Derek Allen being shot down on 15 May, an event from which he was 'missing' for over 24 hours. I suspect the 17 May date must be in error for the 15 May, but the irony is that by the time the family read this telegram he had returned to his squadron and been shot down again, and this time killed, on 18 May 1940. This telegram does not relate to his death on 18 May, but the earlier event that he survived.

It is much more complicated that that, but I cover it all in detail in "Finding The Fallen", Chapter 13. See here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Finding-Fall.../dp/1908117109