Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Yes, very thorough, Chris. I would definitely say that puts a wrap on it. I was very surprised to see the AIR 40/2915 Supplement of 19 August 1944. I did not find that among the A.I.2.(b) copies held by our AFHRA (Air Force Historical Research Agency) at Maxwell AFB in Alabama. From the supplement, it appears Air Ministry Intelligence was just coming to grips with the several hundred satellites the Germans set up beginning in February 1944. For a while there, I suspect they were as confused as we have been!

The book by Mattiello that you referred to, Fliegerhorstkommandanturen und Flugplätze der deutschen Luftwaffe 1935-1945, was one of the last titles published by the highly acclaimed Biblio Verlag in Osnabrück. Maybe a year later, in 2001 or 2002, they went belly up and were acquired by Zeller Verlag. Zeller acquired Biblio's inventory but chose not to continue their publishing program, since it was not profitable. So the book's contents cannot be updated because there will be no future editions.

Your project concerning the Chalons area sounds exciting and worthwhile. If I could turn the clock back 50 years, I would grab a backpack, hop a plane and tromp around the French countryside with you in a nano second. But I will be available to provide you with any information I have on the airfields you explore. I am in the middle of documenting all of the airfields used by the Luftwaffe 1933-45 and I am just finishing up with the Reich. Next up will be France.

Go ahead and delete the images, Chris. I am through with them and I sure don't want to see you get into any hot water!

Cheers,

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Some impressive deduction from the fog of war!

I'd just repeat what I said before about Pocancy, that it might be the location of a Tactical HQ or quarters, rather than the name of an airfield.

I came across this a few times with units in Italy, a location was given that was a village fairly near a known airfield. No sense living on the base and losing your accommodation in an air raid, I guess.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Larry

I forgot to add that there was a landing ground at Oiry (see thumbnail in previous post) about two miles NW of Plivot and directly N of Oiry. It was under construction at the same time as Athis. If it became active then my guess is that Oiry was the landing ground referred to as "Plivot" in Ultra and possibly in other sources. Which suggests it may have been in use by II./Jg 3.

All the best

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Nick

there was a landing ground at Pocancy - apparently it existed pre-war and was enhanced by the Luftwaffe and believed to be in use according to the AIR40 1944 airfield lists. I forgot to post the jpeg for it but can do so if you or Larry would like to see it. Of course that doesn't mean it wasn't being used as a Tac HQ or similar rather than as an airfield.

Thanks to both of you for staying with what was must have seemed like an "angels dancing on a pinhead" thread which has nevertheless been really helpful to me. One last question which concerns the combat report from Obergefr Dorn I posted earlier. I looked up the rank of "Obergefr". The rank seems to be equivalent to that of a British junior NCO. To me that seems a bit junior for a pilot. Or would Dorn have produced the report for the pilot concerned?

All the best.

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hello Chris,

You have done a great job! very interesting thread.

Obergefreiter Wilhelm Dorn belonged to the groundcrew of Stabskompanie II./JG 3. He was not a pilot.

best regards,
Rob

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Rob's dealt with Dorn's role, but as for ranks there was no minimum for a Luftwaffe pilot although pilots who were Flieger (= Aircraftman 2nd Class in the RAF) seem to have been relatively few. Roughly equivalent commands were usually held by lower ranks than in the RAF as well, especially as the war went on.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Thanks Rob

my German is not good and I may have misinterpreted Dorn's report as an air combat report. Was it in fact reporting the shooting down of a US aircraft by ground fire? - Dorn being one of the gunners responsible?

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hi Chris - I have the little blurb on Oiry from one of your images, so I am good with that one. But your page on Pocancy would be appreciated, just in case it has some updated details.

Thanks!

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Attachment 7969

Larry

this is the July 44 entry for Pocancy. I was wrong to tell you and Nick that it had been enhanced and was in use - it wasn't. That's almost certainly confirmation of Nick's view that it was being used as a Tac Hq or accomodation. I seem to recall some reference to Chateau St Georges which I think is in Pocancy village.

Hope that helps

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Thanks for Pocancy, Chris. I didn't get any hits in my data base for "St-Georges" or a Château of the same name. The Germans loved châteaus so if one was in the Pocancy area I am sure they "borrowed" it. :)

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hello Chris,

Yes, you are correct - the P-47 was hit by groundfire from Obergefreiter Dorn.

Best regards,
Rob

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Larry

there's a chateau in Pocancy village on, surprise,surprise, Rue De Chateau. That I think is Chateau St George. And right in the Champagne country too. Those Luftwaffe officers knew how to live!

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Thanks Rob - that squares the circle.

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Attachment 7970

Larry, Nick and Rob

here's my final offering on this subject. It's a note/comment on an earlier Ultra decrypt of a signal saying that a Geschwaderstab previously thought to be Jg 27 but now believed to be Jg 3 had moved to Chateau St Georges 12Km West of Chalons.

Pocancy village is located 12km West of Chalons - so that probably settles the matter if it's combined with a later Ultra signal which I posted earlier asking for fuel to be delivered to an element of Jg 3 located at Pocancy. Next time I'm in France I shall visit Pocancy to confirm the location of Chateau St Georges.

Thanks again for all the help you have given me. This has been an extremely absorbing, enjoyable and fascinating piece of research for me. I've learned a lot under your superb tutelage about a subject that's new to me - for which I'm very grateful. It's also given me a fairly conclusive answer to the problem I set out to solve.

Larry, I intend topursue the Chalons airfield research and have already written to the Vraux museum curator about it - there are still a few puzzles to be solved there and no doubt I shall be calling on your assistance again and also, I hope, contribute something to knowledge in this area.

Best regards

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Thank you, Chris, for being the pit bill terrier of a researcher that you are. You diligently pursued this enigma until you had all of the pieces in place and for that we salute you. It was great fun to contribute here and there along the way, but this is your victory and yours alone because you did 95% of the work. Your discoveries once again prove that there is a lot of valueable historical material left to be mined out of the ULTRA and AIR 40 collections for those with the time and patience to work on it. You did a great job.

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hello again

sorry to be boring about this subject but I thought there was an outside chance somebody would be interested in some new information which sort of rounds-off the discussion. This should be my last post on the subject.

I looked yesterday at British National Archives AIR40/2961 'Enemy airfield activity'. If you don't know this file it reports on (1) aerial recon photos of enemy airfields and what if any aircraft were observed (2) damage reports following raids on enemy airfields (I think it also references recon photos but can't remember now).

There were entries for ATHIS, EPERNAY-PLIVOT, CONDE-SUR-MARNE (ie.Vraux), and VILLENEUVE-VERTUS. All airfields relevant to this discussion about Jg 3 in August 1944 when two of its geschweder were based in the Chalons area.

No aircraft were observed at Athis and Epernay-Plivot on the 14th August. 23 'small' aircraft were observed at Villeneuve- Vertus on the 15th August and 11 'small' aircraft at Conde-sur-Marne (Vraux) on the 11th August. I think small generally means fighter aircraft. I assume that these were from Jg 3.

As for "Chateau St Georges" where Stab elements of Jg 3 were reported by Ultra Intelligence appreciations - it is located just outside the village of Champigneul-Champagne which is close to Pocancy and Villeneuve-Vertus.

I've produced a simple Googlemap showing the locations of all the above. Here's the link https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&mid=1349902138 which I hope works.

Larry, in the unlikely event of you being unaware of AIR40/2961, it might be useful for your work because most of the file is about airfields in Germany. Let me know by private email if there are any dates you're interested in and I can do some jpeg copies for you next time I'm at the archives.

All the best

Chris

PS. the Vraux museum people confirm there was an airstrip just north of Bisseuil but they dont think it was used much if at all by the Luftwaffe (but they did send me a picture of a Marauder parked there in 1944). Apparently it was a WW1 airfield and used as a racetrack between the wars. There's a historian in Bisseuil who they've suggested I contact for more information. I shall try to get to see him next time I'm in the area.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Sorry, the url for the map should be as follows

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msa...ab347dd52e21d1

And the airfield was at 'Oiry' not Bisseuil - all the alternative names are a bit confusing and I still haven't quite got my head round it. But it was Oiry which is referred to in one of the AIR40 files dealing with airfields in France in June & July (Bisseuil was yet another alternative name for ATHIS)

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

PM just sent to you, Chris. Check your in-box.

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Yes, there's me for a start. Good work on this Chris, congratulations on turning up so many leads and making sense of them.

FWIW, Vertus was the home of I./JG 27 on 11 June 1944.

P.S. Speaking as a moderator ... If this isn't the end of the story and you do post more (as I hope you will) I think I'll move this thread to the Luftwaffe part of the forum. The original topic was a lost P-47 and we've digressed slightly!

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Thanks Nick. I'll look for this on the Luftwaffe forum if/when I learn more.

Chris