Re: Meissler's (7./JG52) story and interrogation report
 

Hi, Andreas!

Maybe

It isn't missing or displaced. Simply some pages between 10.May and 1.Sept. remained empty. It is a notebook with handwritten entries. All pages are on their places. 812.IAP made its last sorties on Kuban in the first days of June, and returned to action in the first days of September in Ukraine. So only three weeks of actions omitted. But these days maybe described in other regiment's documents - in "Log book of combat sorties", in combat reports and so on.

Regards,
Andrey

Re: Meissler's (7./JG52) story and interrogation report
 

Hello Andrey
thanks a lot for the info in your message #39 !!!
Truely excellent job!

Juha

Re: Meissler's (7./JG52) story and interrogation report
 

Hi, Andrey.

OK, I understand what you are saying. The point I was trying to make was that even if the former soviet documents are in the archives one will still have to do a bit of digging around in order to get the full picture of what happened on a given day. Using your example - to find out what 812 IAP was up to between May and September 1943 - one have to find it from other sources, not the war diary of the unit itself.

And as far as I have been told, details of individual aircraft losses was entered primarily in the war diaries, these details would then be unavailable for this unit during the timespan indicated.

By far one of the most interesting threads in a long time on the board - hopefully the archives of the Northern Fleet will be correspondingly available some time in the future...

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Meissler's (7./JG52) story and interrogation report
 

Hi, Andreas.

No. War diary isn't the "first" document. And individual aircraft losses repeated in many documents: operative records of all levels (regiment's losses repeated in divisional, corps and air army records), combat reports, special documents about losses (incl. acts of investigation) and so on. All these data can be cross-checked with 5-days reports, for example - roughly analogue of well-known German "Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen", but far more detailed.
Some problems with detailed loss list maybe in such chaotic times as summer 1941.
I research 1943-44 mainly - a picture of losses are establishing relatively easily irrespective to presence of war diaries.

Hm... Papers of VVS Northern Fleet opened many years ago...

By the way, are the ULTRA records contains detailed intercepts about Luftwaffe on Kuban in 1943?

Regards,
Andrey [/quote]

Re: Meissler's (7./JG52) story and interrogation report
 

Hello Andrey, hello all.

Firstly I would like to thank all, for this vivid thread. And in particular Andrey who was at the beginning of this interesting smart discussion.

After saying that, I would like to share with you some questions I ask myself about Meissler’s 109 story

Why a so long time between the facts (the landing) the 28 may 43 and the first publication in Izvestiya newspaper n°230 of 29 September 43?

Why in this Russian newspaper it was chosen this photograph?

Why in Life Magazine of 29 November 1943 we see others photographs?

What do we see of the 109 on the photo of Izvestiya? And how to understand, the 2 elements that show us this photo? The smoke and the fuselage of the 109, with codes ?

Do we know when (the date) these photographs were taken ?

Maybe I am too long, I am sorry, and I would like to give you 2 or 3 elements to have an approach and perhaps to answer some questions

We are 9/9/2011 and exactly 68 years before, 2 Slovak Pilots deserted with their 109 G-4, Anton Matusek in Yellow 9 (Werk n° 19347), Ludovit Dobrovodsky in yellow 13 (Werk n°16259) why the Russians did not use these planes for their propaganda ?

2 days later the 11 September ( I will never forget this date… already 10 years) Another Slovak defection, more important, Alexander Geric landed safely with his G-4 Yellow 2 (Werk n°14938) with him, the Radio mechanic Vincenc Tkacik who bring some secret codes to Russians and some infos about the FuG 17 radio. Some days later, Radio Moscou confirmed the death of Geric

21 September Anapa the last biggest German airfield of the bridgehead of Kuban is liberated.

Maybe there is a beginning of an answer of the 2 photos of the Izvestiya. As a meticulous killer who wants to leave his mark, the Russian propaganda chose the 109 of the poor Meissler, because we can see the stammkennzeichen. It’s a snap for the German…Propaganda.

They could be put Tarasov in front of its victim (no the pilot, but the 109), no, beside, in another photo, an old photo, the plane behind him is not a Yak 1, probably a Lagg-3… No place for the human being in a propaganda photo, even you are the loser or the victor. The “dramatic” smoke is used only as a screen of smoke, as for saying the most important is not hidden…

For the little story the 3 Slovak G-4 and maybe, the Meissler’s G-4 became during many weeks the Pokryshkin staffel. The Great Russian ace use them for tests, sometimes for recce, and also to refine and to develop his legendary tactics.

This thread has had the opportunity to speak about Meissler, before, all the discussions, because, it was the first aircraft of Hartmann, today it seem's it is this 109 itself is important and it keep again its secret...

Thank you again and sorry for my bad English and for being too long..

Re: Meissler's (7./JG52) story and interrogation report
 

Hello!

I think reasons were more simple. Many propaganda articles published some weeks or even months after events due to various reasons.

Probably the Life Magazine wanted the "exclusive" photos and chose unpublished photos from the dozens (I think) shots.

Probably some days later

Possibly to hide the fact of defection. Slovak pilots transmitted the groans before landing to make impression that they are wounded in combat.
By the way, I saw the interrogation reports of these pilots.

Regards,
Andrey

Re: Meissler's (7./JG52) story and interrogation report
 

Hello Andrey.
Thank you for your quick answer. I am sorry but I am not sure to go in your way.
If it is always advisable to use the conditional with the "maybe" and other "probably" for History Yours answers seem's to me little light. Naturally they can be an answer, but an answer among many answers...

Andrey : I think reasons were simpler. Many propaganda articles published some weeks or even months after events due to various reasons.

I don't think the reasons are simpler. You know I was (and I am always) a photographer during more 30 years. A photo can lie, can hide, can tell another story than you see. I always had a little interest for the photo of propaganda, and I learnt with some specialists to "listen" with my eyes the photographs.

As each person who has seen these photographs the first time, it was always associated with Erich Hartmann, with the times, I always thought it was a staged photo. With this thread, I opened widely my eyes, and I learnt many things about this story and about the poor Meissler. And I must say thank you very much.

But the story of these photos goes beyond a simple landing, a simple victory of a Russian pilot. I am convinced...

Andrey : Probably the Life Magazine wanted the "exclusive" photos and chose unpublished photos from the dozens (I think) shots.

Surely that Life wanted the "exclusive" but they can't because the choice was made by the Russians, only Russians, Propaganda oblige,

I am a specialist of Normandie Niemen, and it is the same thing, you can find some photographs at IWM sent by Russians (today these photos belong to Novesti agency), and you will see behind the photo the caption in Russian and his translation in British.
I am sure one day someone will find the photographs of this 109, and I am almost sure there are minimum 2 reportages

Andrey : Probably some days later

As you say "Probably" it is not sure, if you see the photographs, you can remark for example for some photos, the 109 seem's very clean, The atmosphere is not an atmosphere of June for example... Naturally I can make mistake...

When someone will find these photos, we will know the date.

For some photographs of French pilots of N-N taken by Russians It was always said (by French historians, myself first) taken in July 43, near the 14 July, in fact they were taken exactly at the 16th of may...

Andrey : Possibly to hide the fact of defection. Slovak pilots transmitted the groans before landing to make impression that they are wounded in combat. By the way, I saw the interrogation reports of these pilots.

Very interesting, Maybe there are here, some details to understand…

Thank you very much.

Ps: I will send you soon a pm

Re: Meissler's (7./JG52) story and interrogation report
 

Hello.

Meissler's Bf109 was used to test flights soon after the capture.
So the bent airscrew was replaced.
So all photos with the bent airscrew were made few days after landing.

If I'll find something about the subject I'll inform the forum.

Regards,
Andrey

Re: Meissler's (7./JG52) story and interrogation report
 

Thanks again Andrey for all the job you have done.

Regards.

Re: Meissler's (7./JG52) story and interrogation report
 

Hello friends!

Some additions to the old theme. Just found in operative reports of 42.GIAP: during patrol of 8 Yak-1 (42.GIAP) on 28 May 1943 at 06:30-07:50 MSK (05:30-06:50 German Summer Time) Sub-Lt Kossa claimed a Bf109 that made a belly landing 3-4 km west of Troitskoye, pilot became a POW. No doubt, this is about Meissler. And probably M.I.Kossa (HSU in future) was the pilot of unknown Yak, mentioned in Juha's quote:


Best regards,
Andrey