Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Perhaps the question that needs to be asked at this time is what did the Geneva Conventions(of that time period) say, if anything, about shooting "distressed airmen?" I beleive the current conventions say that you can not shoot an airmen bailing out of an aircraft. Paratroopers are fair game.


Chuck

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

So, what is the distinction? neither are capable of defending themselves.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Respectfully, the capability to defend is hardly a reason to not engage an enemy. Does one shoot at a transport aircraft full of troops, or wait for them to parachute down? The same of a landing craft, or soldiers scaling a cliff. A fair fight sounds chivalrous, but war is barbaric. If it were Martians descending, we wouldn't think twice...

Don

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Paratrooper are considered combatants in that they can engage the enemy upon landing.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

To quote Bernard Cribbins: "After straining, heaving and complaining, we was getting nowhere …"

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

It seems that civilization, is not just the written rules, maybe just the contrary , but a common behaviour so usually the air-fighting non-written rules say dont shoot at a defenceless foe, but when you name , a very bad american-habit , the ennemy a damned-bastard to slaughter at any cost, there is no more civilization,

Rémi

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-24april44.jpg

Henry Brown's claim paperwork 24 April 1944

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-29april44.jpg

Henry Brown's claim 29 April 1944

Obviously he didn't feel he should hide that he was trying to shoot pilots.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

I don't normally get involved with these sort of discussions as they usually descend into heated argument but from a purely military point of view I would of thought it made perfect sense to try and kill enemy aircrew who had baled out of their aircraft over their own territory. No one gives a second thought about a tank crew being fired on as they try and bale out of a brewed tank. Aircrew are a war resource just as much as the aircraft they fly, I'm surprised the practice wasn't more wide spread.

Andy Fletcher

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Excellent Rémi! I somehow knew we could count on you to re-nationalize this discussion, which is exactly what the moderator cautioned against. Thank you for collectively painting my entire nation of 310,000,000 people as a bunch of uncivilized barbarians. Were you in the military, Rémi? I was. Were you alive during World War II, Rémi? I was. Did the French drive the Germans out of France, Rémi, or did the Brits, Americans and Canadians do it? You had better be damn glad they came ashore and over the coast with hatred in their eyes instead of carrying a bouquet of flowers and kissing the Boche on both cheeks.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

I can see why some people cling to the notion of chivalry, even in a war most brutally fought. I am with those who fail to see the distinction between machine-gunning a pilot in his parachute, or a tank crew bailing out of a burning tank. Yet somehow the former is seen by some as revolting, while the latter is just fine.

As for the question of this happening in the desert, Michele Palermo has an entry from a book of a Commonwealth fighter pilot who stated (from my memory) that he would machine-gun Axis pilots descending over their own territory, since otherwise the guys would just get back to the airfield, get into a new plane, and continue to fight. I see this as a very logical approach.

All the best

Andreas

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Those poor Martians......

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

My father had a 'dutch uncle' conversation with Henry discussing the fine line between 'rightous killing' and 'not so rightous killing'. The distinction in his mind was leaving the airplane..Henry developed an art form of sliding off to one side at close range and blasting the cockpit trying to kill the pilot... sometimes the film showed he was still shooting as the pilot separated.

My father did point out that there were a lot more 8th AF crews bailing out over Germany than German fighter pilots.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

There was nothing in the conventions on this question at the time. You are right regarding the 1949 Convention. But as I said before, I can not see that as a logical step.

All the best

Andreas

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Excellent Rémi! I somehow knew we could count on you to re-nationalize this discussion, which is exactly what the moderator cautioned against. Thank you for collectively painting my entire nation of 310,000,000 people as a bunch of uncivilized barbarians. Were you in the military, Rémi? I was. Were you alive during World War II, Rémi? I was. Did the French drive the Germans out of France, Rémi, or did the Brits, Americans and Canadians do it? You had better be damn glad they came ashore and over the coast with hatred in their eyes instead of carrying a bouquet of flowers and kissing the Boche on both cheeks.

What for an answer! Sorry I am not french I am italian, that is why I never speak against the french I live there, concerning the americans the better for the whole XX. Century was to not interfere in the european affairs, did we in the american civil war ?? when the 3 rd Napoleon put his nose in Mejico that was a mistake. To end the concert one important thing is to say that the first, in importance, cause of the II.WW is the 1929 crisis, I hv to add that the present situation has the very bad smell of the 1929/1930ies years

Prepare the landing-crafts for the next one

Rémi

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

And in the words of Monty Python's Graham Chapman: "this is getting silly."

Can't we all just stop now?

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

someones going attacking the martians when the arrive, thats just not right.

(Sorry guys) Chill

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Hi,

My friend Dan Taylor (an Australian who has lived in America for quite some time) wrote a very interesting 10,000 word article about this topic for his University history course, and I thought I'd include a couple of extracts.

Most significantly, Taylor notes that there is no evidence for an order by General Doolittle or any other American commander to strafe pilots in their parachutes, despite some claims by American pilots that such an order existed.

Walter Kornatz of the 55th FG had the following to say:

"I personally never saw any German pilots shoot any Americans in their parachutes. One of our pilots gloated that he had one hell of a dogfight with a 109 and eventually caused him to bail out. He said he shot him in his ‘chute because he was so good that he didn’t want to meet him in the air again at a later time. I gave him hell as I pointed out that the Germans had far more opportunity to shoot descending Americans in their ‘chutes than we did Germans and I would hate to see this practice started. At times over heavily defended German targets it looked like a snowstorm with so many B-17 crewmen floating down." (Astor, The Mighty Eighth: The Air War in Europe as Told by the Men Who Fought It, p.433)

A British pilot stated after the war:

“Inexperienced pilots were too often lost on their first patrols; veteran pilots were exhausted, jumpy, and vulnerable. The gay young fighter pilot was no more. They were raw-nerved, gray faced, listless and full of hatred … for those aeroplanes with their black crosses and crooked swastikas ... the younger pilots were shocked to see their seniors shooting at Germans in parachutes … it was considered (reprehensible) and not cricket. But it was done.” (Jablonski, Airwar, Volume 1, p.120)

Bud Anderson of the 357th FG later wrote:

"There were plenty of guys on both sides who would strafe a downed airman, on the theory that he could kill you tomorrow ... There was gallantry in the air war. There was cruelty too. There were some who strafed parachutes ... everyone draws his own moral line. That was mine. I never strafed parachutes ..." (Anderson, To Fly and Fight, p.111)

Captain Richard Petersen of the 357th FG later stated:

"Normally nobody, including the Germans, would shoot at anybody in a parachute. It just wasn't done. I mean there's no challenge in shooting a guy in a parachute for God's sake. I mean, he's had it. You can't miss." (Moore, Target Berlin, video, 1997)

Petersen then went on to describe an incident where a Bf 109 pilot was strafing bailed out bomber crewmen, so Petersen attacked him, ensuring the German bailed out, before strafing and killing him.

One obvious point: given that most of the aerial combats involving Americans were over German territory, the Americans would be much more likely to strafe bailed out Germans because those men would be returning to their units upon landing. In contrast, bailed out Americans would be taken prisoner, so there was no point in the Germans killing them.

The basic conclusion, supported by the evidence above, is that this practise was carried out by a small percentage of pilots of all nationalities, and although morally abhorrent (especially to someone living in the 21st century), it made very sound military sense (unless the pilot was going to become a prisoner of war).


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Just to remember, the Japanese fighter pilots routinely strafed enemy airmen in parachutes.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Andrew Arthy´s post says it all IMHO.
Can´t we stop further discussions?

Regards

Roland

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Your wish is my command.