Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

The wing crosses are applied as they were found on the aircraft during restoration, different styles for the upper and lower wings.

Dave

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Yes Dave!

Exactly what we found during the cleaning of old paint.

Remenber also that the very first He 162 of the serie 120 received on the fuselage the small b&w cross.
And also the two tails were green......with the "WNr." painted in white.

Sorry I work this night, but it is time to take the road before going to my bed!!!

See you later!

Philippe

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Philippe,

NO! The original upper wing camouflage on the wings of 76 and 86 were and are not 81/82!!!! And, the intake for the engine pod of 86 is not 02 like yours. End of story.

Stephen

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Stephen,

I just say "I hope", not "I am sure" for the upper wings color.

But Here is a photo showing part of the upper wings of 120086.

For you what is this color: RLM70, 81 or 82?

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9183/120086cjx1.jpg

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/he162sf_1.htm

And I have a slew more photos that I did not post with this announcement.

Stephen

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Philippe, et al,

Further to my previous post:

Actually, it’s no colour; well German that is. I suspect what you are seeing is an attempt, possibly by the RAF, to make 86 presentable for display in Hyde Park? The reason why I say this, if you study the markings on 86, the original ones were painted over by the RAF with roundels, most likely on the continent. Then, sometime later, maybe in England, the roundels were been painted over and representative German national markings were applied. As can be seen on the fuselage of 86, I suspect some effort was made to match the original German colours.
Both 76 and 86 came to Canada more or less wearing their original camouflage. When the national aviation museum, god bless them, repainted 76, they did it as a complete unit. Consequently, and lucky for us, the area covered by the engine pod wasn’t touched and the original camouflage is still present. (See attached images)
If you can, Phillipe, head to Aero Vintage’s work shop to study the wing before they strip it.
As a side note, my observations of 86 prove that the upper wing surface was not painted in two colours as per the official guide.

http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?i...20076209gj.jpg

http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?i...20076110qq.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5048/app00001jw2.jpg

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9497/app0002vz2.jpg

Stephen

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi folks,
Once again!

The picture (see below He 162 white 21) shows the presumed undersurfaces of the 120015. The cross looks like the bold type, the same as seen on the white 3 (see second picture).
Philippe, could you confirm me you fin thin cross type during the restoration process. If it'is the case, how could you explain the difference between the picture and the present wings?

Concerning the restaoration schedule, when do you expecte to complete the project.

I'm looking forward to your answer and your coming publication about the He 162 (120015).

Best regards

Pascal

((Pictures from Defending the Reich, The history of JG 1 "Oesau", E. Mombeeek, JAC Publications, 1992)

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Stephen and Pascal,

My photo show a very small part of the wing of 120086, only taken in november 2006!! by the team of the Canadian Museum in order to help us for the restoration of 120015!
I am sure that this small part have the original german paint, as you can see on the bottom some original german markings for the fuel tank.
But I am OK with you, the german cross were overpainted during the Hyde park show, so the 'green color' near the actual german cross is an english green!
Stephen, the wing's photo with the splinter camouflage show the wing, not of 120086, but of 120076.

Pascal, I know those two photos, with the all black cross, but our wings have not this sort of cross, sorry but we discovered under the 4 french paint the original cross, like you can see at our MFA site.
Don' remenber that tail , fins and wings were easy go from one to another plane!
For our 120015, one fin come from 120223, one from 31005 and the ejection seat from 120231!!But the wings come really from 120015, as we find "15" on the wings.

The story of the 162 camouflage is difficult!

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Philippe,

Thanks for your reply to my post. I am well aware that the two pictures I supplied of 76's wing are just that. I posted them to prove a point about the colour of the upper wing surface. Please re-read my post. The other point I am trying to make by positng these photos is not aimed at the post war splinter camouflage repaint, but the surface directly underneath the engine pod; see where the red arrow is pointing.

Now, I am not sure how many photos the staff at the National Aviation Museum Canada provided, but obviously they didn't know what they were looking at because it shows in the photo that you have posted. (It is not, repeat, not the original German camouflage colour) I know, because I have dealt with the staff and there is no in-house expert on the He.162!

In regards to 120086, the point I am trying to get across is the fact that the upper wing surface is a vibrant dark green, possibly RLM 82? Also, it proves that the wing was painted in one colour and not, I repeat, not segmented as per the official RLM guide.

As for 76, I have no idea what is under the post war splinter repaint, but, the only evidence we have of original camouflage paint is the surface area under the engine pod, which is similar to that of 86. I can only assume that the original paint on 76 is the same as shown on 86. (Which, again, is a vibrant dark green).

As of note, the camouflage on the horizontal tail plane of 86 is not, and I repeat, not segmented. The starboard elevator is RLM 81, top and bottom, whereas the port elevator is RLM 81 on top and and RLM76 on the bottom. (I suspect the port elevator is a replacement because the photo on page 10 of the Monogram Close-up 11 taken at Leck shows 86 with what appears to be a missing the port elevator.)

I really hope your project goes well.

Stephen

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Stephen,

Many thanks for your reply!!

Here is another photo from the 120086:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4019/120086bmk5.jpg

You can see on the right around the post-war german croos, the "englsh green", and on the left side the original german color.

Like you, I am sure that the wings are painted in one color, possibly the RLM82.

Do you want a photo of 120015's cockpit? My first 1989 restoration?
We must restore it again, it will be more easy in 2007 than in 1989, as the fuselage is now on the circular jig!

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Philippe,

Thanks for the photo of the fuselage. I too have taken many photos of 86 and am glad that I did because of it's rarity.

Sure, please send along a photo of the cockpit of 015; I'd appreciate that.

What's interesting with the fuselage photograph is it shows the differences between the two greens (wing and fuselage) and the colour on the fuselage is defintely more of a olive colour. Also, your photo shows a thick layer of dust, mine also, and this does have an effect when taking pictures with a flash. In order to study 086 it needs to be professionaly cleaned.

Hopefully some day this will happen because it will certainly advance our knowledge in late war German camouflage colours.

Stephen

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Stephen,

Here is the promised photo showing the cockpit restored in 1989, when this plane "was the 120223", but now the real 120015:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4...120015anx5.jpg

Sorry I must left the forum now, but I will come the next week!

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

And here an updated beta list about the He 162 found at Leck...

Happy to see you there Philippe, can't wait to learn the final identity from 120015... As you will see i bet more for 'white 1' than 'white 21' but you have the clue! Perhaps a third one? :)

Greetings
Olivier.

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Olivier,

Don't forget in your He 162 file to notice my two other papers in
"Aeroplane monthly-April and May 2006,
Flugzeug Classic -July and August 2006"

About the color of individual code number, remenber that all he 162 fuselage are not painted in the same camouflage color!
If you look closely in lines of He 162 at Leck, you can see some fuselages in darker color, some are painted in "classic RLM76", some in RLM65 and some in the famous derivative RLM76 like "duck-egg-green".
So It is very difficult to be sure that the code is in white or in yellow!

As we are preparing a book on the restoration of 120015, you will see that after the final restoration, surely in 2008.

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Philippe,

Will the book be available in English?

Stephen

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Stephen,

It's a very good idea!
Today it is only a project with the photos"s legend in english, like also a summary.
Pehaps also a sumary in german?

All is possible!!, but not before the end of restoration...........no date today...........restoring a plane is a very hard job if you want to work perfectly like in 1945.

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi folks!

Just short, as I'm little busy at the moment!

Olivier! Thank you for the updated list! I'm currently also working on an update of the list, as I have got some new information from Manfred Griehl. I'm also doing a list with camouflage and markings notes!

Just one think I can tell now: Have a detailed look at the fin of White 5! It's the one and only He 162 I have ever seen with two different coloured vertical fins. Left one is RLM 76 and right one RLM 82. As original Junkers fins were RLM 76 I think the right one was a replacement from another plane! 310078 could be possible as there were some other Bernburg planes with such high werknumbers.

Don't forget that 310018 made an emergency landing on April 1st near Nurnberg. So maybe 310018 never joined JG 1. Would be interesting what happend to the other 2 planes (310002 and 310006) and their pilots.

Philippe, are you really sure with the Balkenkreuze on the lower side of the wing? I have a picture showing white 3 (120028 ). There you can see the old style of the Balkenkreuz. As the other White 3 (W.Nr 1200XX) and other planes of the early series had these style of Balkenkreuz why should have 120015 other markings?

Cheers, Simon

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Simon,

I have no explication at this time!
We are only sure, after cleaning the 4 french paints, to discover the original german paint, because after this last paint we discovered the wood structure of the wing!
Sorry , but like you, I know this photo, but I am in front of the reality of a plane just in front of me!!
I am not front of a B&W photo, but a real He 162.
And this wing is RLM 65 and RLM 70.
Wait after the book so you will see the photos, not before!

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Yes, saw that also... It's already noted inside the above list ;) Note also that there is not any W.Nr. on this green right fin...

But it's not the only one...

When it had been pictured at Leck, 120223 "yellow 1" was under repair with a missing wing tip on it's left wing and with a new green fin and rudder on the right side!

Strangely when 120015 had been examinated in 1970 it was discovered the W.Nr.120223 painted in black on it's right rudder!!!
But with good eyes you will see from the photo that a white swastika is visible under the black one, so the original fin color was green. (Interesting to note how the white swastika was slightly higher and bigger than the latter black one. They are both in correct size and position so it's not a post war French job)

The 120015 right rudder in 1970 thanks to Jean-Claude Mermet: http://modelarchives.free.fr/photosc...empennages.JPG

Conclusion: After surrender Germans gave helps to fly, to repair but also to finish the painting and marking job. Jean-Claude Mermet told me that it was the Germans who added the red arrow on nose from 120086 and "yellow 3" after surrender. On this same way it seems that they also try to finish to repair 120223, including the overpainting from it's green right rudder with RLM76 and the corresponding black markings.

Cheers, Olivier

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Philippe!

This is one more proof that the French 120093 is actually 120231 "white 6" with only the tail from 120093. It has the same unpainted front fuselage, the same dark nose, the same white roundel at the end of the rear fuselage and so on... The "white 2" visible on the fuselage side doesn't exist at all, it's an optic illusion, all it's edges are made by the batch of wires... And IMHO 120093 can't have the RATO attachement points visible on the photo, which very probably appear only with the 120201 batch...

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Olivier,

Wait the futur book, please!!

The photo, via J.C.Mermet, is not a high resolution photo.
I have better one from J.M.Goyat, in b&w and also in color.............and sorry I don't see any white swastika, only the original b&w one, and in 2005, we discovered again this swastika.........always in b&w configuration.

It is the problem, again and again, to study camouflage via photos, and to see camouflage on a real plane.

Best wishes Olivier!

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Philippe i post the link from JCM because it's the only one i know on the web... I saw in "Couderchon, P., 0ct/Nov 2005: Aviation Française Magazine N°6 " one of the color picture from R.Goyat colection and the white swastika is quite clearly there... You perhaps not found it again recently simply because it was erased during the the 1970 cleanning work done before 120015 was repainted as yellow1... I suppose the aircraft was pretty well cleaned only with the most important markings kept untouched...

The photo from 120223 at Leck with a green fin on it's right side is visible inside "Myhra David, 1999: Heinkel He 162 – X planes of the third reich series, Schiffer Military History, Atglen, 96p."

To wait until 2008 will be a long time to wait ;)

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Olivier,

In first, about the photo taken in 1975 and showing the right fin of the 120015 during its first partial restoration, I just look my others high resolution photos, so I can confirm that the upper white swastika is not the original german one painted in 1945, but the one painted in 1960 by the Musée de l'Air!!
Effectivly, this white swastika is painted just on the SNCAC emblem (painted only in 1947), not under.
You can see the original one painted in black at lower position and under the grey color of the fin!
Sorry, but again in 2005, we re-discovered this, always at the same position!

For the question about the real 12223, a first photo taken at Leck just before the english soldiers arrived, show this plane with its two original fins in grey and with its complet tips.
After this plane have a "ground accident", the left tip was missing and the right fin was replaced by another green one. (perhaps one from 120015!!)
And, now, we have this "12223 original grey fin" on the 120015.

For the french n°3, the 120093, I have no confirmation as it was the real 120231 or not.........the big problem is that we have not photo of each He 162 at Leck in April/May 1945!

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Olivier,

On this photo taken in spring 1975, the "white svastika", painted by the Musée de l'Air in the 1960's:

<a href="http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lebourget1975before1ya.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/9223/lebourget1975before1ya.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a>

In first the original subject was the camouflage wings of the 120076, so it is preferable to speak about this 120076.

For the 120015, you must have patience until 2008!!!

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

No problem Philippe, i just doesnt know about this 1960 camo ;) And after a second close examination this white swastika was sligtly not high enough as well as not perfectly vertical to be German...

Very strange to see that this supposed broken fin is not!

The only explanation would be that:
1/ 120223 goes to the repair place cause of its broken wing tip and there give its right bleu fin to another plane which is among the five given to the French. >> if true and if it's the only element we have to say that 120223 came in France then 120223 perhaps never came in France >> need to check

2/ sometimes later, perhaps only after surrender, a new green fin was added to 120223

Cheers

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Sorry Olivier for the photo,

The good connexion is:

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/9...5before1ya.jpg


Philippe

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Quote
"The only explanation would be that:
1/ 120223 goes to the repair place cause of its broken wing tip and there give its right bleu fin to another plane which is among the five given to the French. >> if true and if it's the only element we have to say that 120223 came in France then 120223 perhaps never came in France >> need to check

2/ sometimes later, perhaps only after surrender, a new green fin was added to 120223"

>>

This would explain why, except from the two A-1 "red 7" and "yellow 5", we have four W.Nr. (120015, 120093, 120223 and 120231) for only three He 162.

Then the three flyable French one would have been:
N°1 = 120093 "unknown fuselage number"
N°2 = 120015 "white 22?" with right fin from 120223
N°3 = 120231 "white 6"

(N°1 and N°3 could have been inverted depends from which one show RATO attachement points on photos - And in any case if N°1 doesn't have RATO it can't be 120223...)

(120015 can't be white 21 since white 21 is pictured at Leck with a later camo than the one awaited for 120015, can't be white 1 since marking are not on the correct emplacement. And white 22 probably had JG1 emblem painted on the front fuselage same as white 21)

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Philippe, excuse all my brain storming, better probably to wait the book... And the new 120015 :)

Greetings, Olivier.

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Olivier,

There’s nothing wrong with being curious or trying to brainstorm, keep it going. Just realize that Philippe is most likely withholding information for the unveiling of the aircraft in 2008.

Stephen