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Thank you, very much, for your detailed answer. You are right. I should learn to at least read German. I can read Polish. I can also read Russian but only if it is in English characters, not Cyrillic. Thanks again, Ed |
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I do not know anything about that but if so many errors can be found on just one page of the first chapter of the book, one must be excused for wondering. Quote:
I sense an unfriendly tone here. Peter Achs posted his message on a German language forum, so why should it be in English? Anglo-American versus German authors In my opinion there is little difference when it comes to accuracy (by the way I am Swedish). A fresh example: William Green, I think it was, once invented aircraft versions and designations that are complete fantasy and many authors have reiterated these, again and again. In the latest issue of the German magazine Jet & Prop there is a photo of a Heinkel He 45 and in the accompanying caption the German author (the editor?) tells us that the first flight was in 1932 (it was not), and that the "He 45b" built by Gotha was designated "He 45C" (the He 45b was a modification of the He 45a and both that, the He 45B and He 45C were built only by Heinkel). In addition it is likely that the photo shows a He 45D and not the He 45C. Quote:
I do not agree. Quote:
We are talking about history here and Peter's main criticism was not about the author's language skills. An author has a responsibility towards the reader and if even facts that can easily be checked and verified are wrong, then criticism is justified. For example, on page 22 Udet is said to have imported three Curtiss Hawks. There were only two and I have never seen a source maintaining that there were three, so where did that come from. I know very little about the Ju 88 - that is why I bought the book. I was interested to see the colour profile of D-AXVM on page 71. When checking the caption I see that the c/n quoted is 088050. As far as I know D-AXVM was c/n 0885025. Lennart A |
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rubbish .....part of the very first sentence of Achs' commentary reads (quickly, cos I can't be bothered to translate it word-for-word for you..) " .. here's proof that non-Germans can't write about German aircraft...". AFAIK Medcalf wouldn't even consider himself an "historian", he's an engineer, that's the approach this first volume takes...unfortunately with his typos he leaves himself open to the charge by the likes of Achs that as he doesn't know German - or indeed is not a German - he's somehow incompetent... |
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Lennart A. questioned where did certain pieces of info come from. Interestingly, when reading the book I was quite surprised by the scarcity of source notes. Surprised because usually authors with engineering background are quite comfortable with copious source noting. This same issue concerned me greatly when I read the Ju 87 book by the same publisher and compared its source noting to the very proper source noting in Daniel Uziel's Arming the Luftwaffe.
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Nick, I don't mean to derail but who produced all the aircraft, mined and refined the metal and built the electronics and optics? Hitler? Who backed him? Industry and science were thrown into a war footing long before Hitler - as wild-eyed spokesman - was brought in. And there was more than one attempt to kill him during the war. Krupp Thyssen Siemens GEMA Telefunken Zeiss I.G. Farben Best, Ed |
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I always wonder when someone writes 'Nazi' aircraft, did he somehow find that particular aircraft's party membership card? :o |
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Nick,
As with any war, at least until the Korean War, the conflict had to be sold to the common man who would fight and die with the fancy hardware built by someone else and profited on by others. With the greatest respect for the sacrifices made by the British, how did the home press recount the First World War while it was going on? It was only a bit later that the true picture of the carnage would emerge. Without making any direct connection to Hitler - he was the front man, the carnival barker, the necessary fanatical voice with a propaganda minister who "sold" the war by any means necessary. Fatherland. German unity. Whatever would appeal to the people and inspire the Jungvolk, the Hitler Youth, those who served in the the RAD and DAK who had a reason to believe. In a bit of black humor, I watched a short movie where three men agreed that "there's no money in peace." so they plotted a war. Best, Ed |
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There was no such thing as a "Rooseveltian ideology"? Of course there was: it was called the "One World" ideology, an ideology that aimed at world domination in co-operation with the USSR. Good reading on the topic includes Thomas B. Fleming's "New Dealer's War" and Herbert Hoover's "Freedom Betrayed". As for "militarisation" of an entire society, so what? The most brutal practitioners of war have always been civilians either in the form of scientists, politicians or religious fundamentalists. Plus, e.g. in the current Middle East the most militarised society is also the most orderly (Israel). Another good book: Martin van Creveld's Culture of war, a healthy antidote to quasi-pacifism.
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To argue that the few surviving democracies were "ideological" in the same terms as the Soviet and Nazi regimes, you'd need to demonstrate convincingly that any of them had in their constitution or laws something directly comparable to the USSR's "leading role of the Communist Party" or the "Führerprinzip" under National Socialism in Germany.
Certainly Britain and France (for example) have had elected leaders who tended to delusions of personally embodying the nation (too much power for too long will do that to a person, apparently) but they never entrenched those delusions in law, I'm delighted to say. |
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According to Hoover Crooksevelt's power grab was in practice a coup d'état that breached everything that was hold dear.
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http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0945001533 Who was Allen Dulles? What was he doing in "neutral" Switzerland during the war? Who negotiated the surrender of German troops in Italy? http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic...tion?format=PB Hitler paid for the war out of his own pocket? Regards, Ed |
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And by the way, do read Hoover's book in conjunction with Fleming and Vasili Mitrohin to see how thoroughly FDR's administration was infiltrated by Soviet spies and moles. |
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Apart from the bad text here another aspect:
My friend Hans-Jürgen posted this on a board for Illustrators. Mr Noszczak copied my drawing of the Ju 288 almost 1 to 1, of course with my mistakes. (Mr Noszczak's drawing is black, my drawing is red, see p.158) And he didn’t ask me. That is dishonest, but it fits the rest of the book. Mr Noszczak also works for the trash publisher Kagero from Eastern Europe. That explains it - I think. Regards Peter |
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I've personally found Artie Bob's book very good and would like to congratulate him on a very readable account. In the same vein I greatly look forward to Volume 2 and hope that such a negative review has not dissuaded him from continuing. I want to particularily congratulate Artie for having the courage to publish his book in the face of a worldwide recession (except in Germany) and in English a far more accessable language to the vast majority of the world than in German, a minority language.
I cannot comment on the books accuracy as I am not an Ju 88 expert, but I greatly look forward to Peter Achs' publishing his own book on the Ju 88 which, of course, will be 100% accurate and in splended German. Easy to write a review, not so easy to write a book, so Herr Achs if you are a Junkers Ju 88 expert, how about your own book on the '88? |
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Why is it still necessary to ask people not to use TOCH to pursue feuds begun in other forums?
Discussion and criticism of the book is fine, but Peter if you genuinely think your own work has been misused then take it up directly with the person you believe is at fault. I have no doubt that the publisher will pass your letter on to him. If, on the other hand you want to publicise your own planned work, it would be much easier — and altogether more positive — to announce and give progress reports it in a new thread, as other authors have done. The quality of your work on the Ju 288 has been referred to and I am sure that many people will look forward to your studies of other members of the '88 family. |
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Ok, ok. But I feel a latent (or more open) animosity. My review was not gloating, but fairly and objectively. I would have written almost the same thing if the book had been written by a German or Indian author.
When I try, my book can be completed in two years. But I still have a job. If there is interest, a translation into English is possible. Regards Peter |
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Thank you Peter I think we all look forward to your work and here is one that would greatly welcome an English translation.
Yes, Kagero may not be the best publisher in the world but to many it is the 'entry level' into the Luftwaffe interest, unlikely that a newcomer will purchase the Prien JVB set as a starter! Perhaps better to encourage Kagero to higher ideals of accuracy then to 'trash' them? Best Regards Chris |
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Peter - Good luck with your project. I think your two year timeframe might prove optimistic whilst you still have to work even with the research you've completed to date.
Chris - I'm not really clear how encouraging Kagero would get them to be better and exactly how one could really go about this in a meaningful manner. They've been in the market for a long time and work by being at the lower end. |
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Agree with Chris re Kagero - and their artwork is first class. Steve, perhaps contact Kagero and offer to proof, correct and edit their texts as I did for a number of years..(work that I've also taken on at various times for Classic, Eagle Editions, Erik Mombeek & Lela Presse, so not just 'lower end' of the market stuff..) |
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Fair enough if that works for you but from my perspective, I have limited hobby time available and I'd rather devote that to uncovering new material and gaining fresh perspectives which I can then feed into the subjects which particularly interest me or can be of use to fellow researchers.
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of course, but then you did pose the question how to 'encourage' Kagero to do better...I note that just recently they appear to have stopped using Thomaz Szlagor as well so that Murawski's latest 'Air Battles' title is as poor as most Luftwaffe literary luminaries imagine all their stuff must be..
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That's a fair enough riposte. On a personal level I have never been convinced that volume publishers will sacrifice quantity for quality as the latter will always inevitably delay production schedules.
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There is a connection between the home country of the author and the quality. The books from UK/US or Eastern Europe that I know and deal with my field of interest (Junkers, air defense etc) are simply bad. I can prove it. I do not know who you are. But why are you defending this obviously bad book? You know that it is full of errors and lacks so many things. The typos and howlers are just a small aspect. Kagero: I have three booklets about the Ju 88 (issues 13-15). I'm sorry, but the quality of the text and captions of this series is below any discussion. The line drawings are fine. Color drawings are beautiful to look at, but the “scientific” value tends to zero. These (all?) color profiles from this period are 90 percent speculation. Regards Peter |
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Peter, don't worry it's an English ingrained personality trait to defend the 'under-dog' against teutonic onslaughts, Belgium, Greece and Norway come to mind :D ;)
Being serious now: with regard to Kagero's artwork I think 90% is a major exageration, for example in volume III the artist has placed wartime photographs next to his profiles so that the accuracy can be seen. Can we expect that your book will be filled with superbly crafted and accurate profiles then? Do you have an artist in mind? I can recommend a Serbian, a Slovakian, an Englishman, a couple of Polish chaps and even a frenchman. Sadly only one German (and he works for Kagero) |
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Dear Peter,
The more you attack writers of works from other countries, the lower your stature in our eyes becomes. A word to the wise... Regards, Richard |
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Hi Chris,
I think the quality of a book does not depend on the number of profiles. I have a theory that I wrote several years ago on another board: The quality of a book is inversely proportional to the number of color profiles. (Roughly:D) You forgot one Icelander: Ednorth makes very good and accurate profiles. Regards Peter |
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I recommend a speedy return to the topic of this thread.
William Medcalf has set up a site for his book which will include errata, so I'm sure that specific contributions will be welcome, whether sent direct or via this forum. Sweeping generalisations are altogether less helpful, I suspect. |
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Hello folks!
I followed the discussion here and on different German forums. Not just about this book, but also about other books. Mr Achs, I have no idea why you always use such harsh words? Why not simply “ins Fäustchen lachen” (show gloating joy) and announce that you are working on something that will blow away all the errors that were written since end of the war? In the past you gave the German reading aviation enthusiasts an impression what you have in your archive. There were some articles published in Jet&Prop that were simply stunning and made me nosy for more. I’m sure most here don’t know them, and have no idea about the content. But I have to agree with Richard T. Eger. In your way to announce errors of others you will not find many friends outside of Germany. I’m happy to have some connections around the globe, and just with them it was possible to publish my work around the globe. In “Good-old-Germany” my profiles just got published in small numbers. Maybe my work is too “bad” for the German market, so I have to publish elsewhere. You can like profiles or not! That’s everybody’s right! If you don’t like them, you don’t have to look at them, but there are others (mostly model builders) that see them as good addition to reference photographs. Painting aircraft profiles is simple the same as building model planes, but just in 2D. I have to agree with Mr. Achs that some profiles published by different publishing houses and artists are simply fantasy and you will never find reference photographs for them. So these drawings are just “waste” of space and have no historical value. But you also find this stuff in Germany in German aviation magazines, drawn by a German artist. I’m sure Mr. Achs you know the German publishing house, author and artist I mean. ;-) For me as artist of some of the Ju88 profiles in the book I can tell you that I tried my best to do them as accurate as possible. I got many reference material and if not I tried to find as much material as possible and did many hours of research. I have to say that I was really wondering seeing some of my profiles without the additional reference photographs. So nobody can check how many hours (and it were a lot) I spent painting all these crazy meanders at my Ju88A-4/LT, Ju88G-1 and Ju88S-1 profiles. But this wasn’t in my hands. I just can say that I tried to draw them as accurate as possible. And for sure there is another aspect: “nobody is perfect” If you have any comments and critique regarding my profiles please let me know. Cheers, Simon PS: As I’m more artist as historian and no Junkers expert I can’t write anything that is written in Arties book. Also I have no idea if I find time to read it in near future. Some other book projects are waiting! PPS: ChrisS: What is the name of the German artist working for Kagero? PPPS: I also know an Austrian artist!!! ;-) |
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Simon, did I say German I meant Austrian....sorry! So I guess you don't count either... I was trying to find a German for Peter.... :)
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@Simon
Can you tell me why you attack me? :mad: I'm only the bearer of bad news. You'd better attack the publisher or the author who sell such a botch for 70 €. Grüße in die Ostmark:D |
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Yes I did forget Ednorth, remiss of me! I think the EoE project books will be filled with profiles.... so I am certain Larry Hickey will blow your theory to pieces :D All the best Chris |
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Similarly, we expose our own prejudices if we speak of the Reds or Commies, but it is quite proper to say Soviet rather than just Russian. In this case, it is also strictly more correct anyway, to allow for Ukrainian input.
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Everyone, discuss the book or I think it'll be time to close this thread. |
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Compared to fighters, German bombers have generally been ill-served in the literature. Artie Bob's first volume is therefore a very welcome addition. Kudos to him for the huge and sustained effort that it represents. I am very happy to own a copy as it is now the best single resource on the Ju 88, and it will remain so until a better publication becomes available.
If that irks the living bejesus out of the world's foremost Junkers expert, then I hope he'll produce the definitive work on this important type. Go for it, Peter -- make our day. Dump the color profiles and publish it in German if you must, but don't take that encyclopedic knowledge to the grave with you. Leon Venter |
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I do concur to your opinion, Leon. As a year long Luftwaffe book collectioner, I have just a poor list covering the Ju 88. I am glad to finally get some better info on this type and am already try to find my copy locally since I knew it was published. (Perhaps I missed some that I'm not aware of)
Similar, I am glad with the errorlist Peter gave us as a companion of this volume and will include it in my volume. Thanks to Artie to finally share his knowledge. I am already expecting the second volume of his work. |
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