Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Hi Klemchen, if you are referring to the picture I attached, yes it is an example of the belly hatch.

But on the picture on the airframw at Sola, we are looking from the rear forward. So the rectangular panel is on the left/port side....not starboard. So it is not the belly hatch.

Now, it isn't clear if it is removeable or solidly riveted in. Ernst...maybe you could comment?

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

The square camera / repear patch are on the left side. The opening for the belly hatch is also visible to the right. The square patch are solid riveted to the skin. We have to drill it off to se if it is riveted in old screw holes or not. We wil also look closer for camera attacments in the erea.
So for the time we are looking for more info / pictures of the G2 / G1 airframes, the G1 JG2 in france is most interesting, as this will give a picture off what was needed for a rebuild to the G2 standard. We also hope to get information when it was tranfaird to JG5 in Norway may be trough Denmark.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

This picture is from Mombeeks Jg5 band 2 page 303. This can possibly be Bf109 G2 14055, unfortently it is not possible to read the WN.r on the tail. Erik has a higher resolution off the same, so by posting it here we hope others can have a different picture of it. The spesial here are the covling. It has the G1 cabincompressor inlet, an a fresh painted turbo inlet were the cowling itself seems to be modidied. A sirkular erea behind it. Seems also to be a F type. Can this be becahuse off the DB601E engine. The hood is also a standard G2 non pressurized item.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Is it possible to tarce the number 28K on the main spar?
I have on loan a new book from Lynn Ritger, on page 102 ther are a foto taken on the WNF factory during production on F mod frames. It shows frames numberd with Exx and Fxx number on. Is it possible to sorce any foto with Kxx numbers? As this are more likely then K for Kjeller.
There was a better quality picture in Merrick`s camouflage and markings on p40, is shows even Hxx numbers so the possibilety are rising for K28 as an F2 in 1941.

It will be good if someone replys also
I hope this will be a good sorce / refrence for info, as it seems that no one have diged so deep from this angle before.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Regarding the numbers 388 on Lh gear, 499 on RH gear and 224 on main spar. I found this info in an old book, Monogram Close-up Nr 6 regarding BF109 G. It contains a table with ID / WNr refrences.

499 number. From table 13 499 (G1)
388 number. From table 15 388 (G3)
224 number, From tekst 20 225 (G3)
As this book is old ( 1976 ) has ther been a "update" of this table, may be including the E - F series. May be the 224 is a F serie number.

This is can be for our airframe:
WNF F2 6687 ( main spar and lh gear) 15% landing accsident, sendt for repair. Rebuilt as G1 14055. 70% loss. Sendt for new rebuild to G3, canged to G2 14055. Sendt to I/JG5 as G2 100% loss 7.7.1943

Is this 13 15 20 related to factories or showing type of airframe

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Hi!


The chart is just shoiwing examples of numbers...so we cannot conclude that becasue the numbers are similar in your areas, that they are from that exact type airframe.

This is because almost every werk number block could have had the 3 numbers you are referring to.

In the photo you attached a few posts back, it is clear that the wings are later G (meaning G5 to G14)...as you can clearly see the wing bulges for the larger wheels.

The "G" on the gear legs, simply means "G"...as in "Me109 G".

The gear legs on the F and early G were quite different. If you can take a photo of the LOWER part of the gear leg (where the wheel attaches), I can tell you 100% if the legs are F or G.

But that will not really conclude anything...just confirm what type of legs are on it.

Stamping on the gear legs from F onwards did not match up with any aircraft werk numbers. They were just an assembly number or werk number of the leg itself. So researching from the numbers on the gears leg I would not do, as they will not be givng us any concluding information.

If you can take some good overall photos of the cockpit, we will be able to determine if it was an F converted to G...or an original G build.

Possible?

Mike

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

There have not been so mutch update on this one the last year. But we have now ( after 26 years ) got the exact position of the recovery by the fisherman. This show a depth of 80m insted of 300m, so now we might try to serch for the tail by rov.

And after looking trough old fotos i found this of the Lh gear. Is a protection like this seen before?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

A protection for light reflection?

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Hi out there , today we got som updates regardig the airframes history:

The aircraft was ferried on 20.02.43 from Deurne (where the repair was performed by Erla) to Vaerlöse (which acted as a Flugzeugschleuse for aircraft intended for JG 5).
my data came from an old list of flights from Überführungskommando/Luftzeuggruppe Belgien-Nordfrankreich. I have not stored a copy af this paper.
Merlin

And from Rasmussen
and during transfer the engine was changed in Stade because of engine failure (the repair ended on 23.03.1943 and the a/c was flown to Vaerloese).

Doe anyone have the orginal dokuments from this new information, or even mor detaild ones



This gives this new lifspan:


Thanks for your confirmation Matti. This is the real identity of our airframe.
BF109 G1 W.Nr 14055. Built by Messerschmitt AG, Regensburg. Date March 1942, in block 14039-14063. Stkz found in LMBD database says NI + BY

Deliverd directly to JG2 11(H) staffel ?

Crashed 1942-07-30, 11./JG 2, Bf 109G-1, 14055, Fl.Pl. Audembert, Notlandung infolge Feindbeschuß. Bruch 70 %.

The aircraft was ferried on 20.02.43 from Deurne (where the repair was performed by Erla) to Vaerlöse (which acted as a Flugzeugschleuse for aircraft intended for JG 5).

and during transfer the engine was changed in Stade because of engine failure (the repair ended on 23.03.1943 and the a/c was flown to Vaerloese).


Rebuilt to G2 standard in a repairshopp in France ? Is there any info were JG2 sendt the damaged plane to.

Rebuilt by merging G1 with F4 trop airframe? we have a lot of parts / numbers sugesting this teory. Even the engine trottle linkage on the firewall ( 3 different positions ) our was bolted in the upper one saying E motor ( 601E for F4 )

Ended in the northsee serving with 1/JG5
1943-07-07, 1./JG 5, Bf 109G-2, 14055, 3 weiße, Südwestlich Egersund, 90 km südwestlich Stavanger, Luftkampf mit Hampden. Bruch 100 %.

Causing the plane to crash was: RAAF 455 SQD
P.5302 - S UB - S
Crew S/Ldr B.R.D.O CONNOR (P)
F/O R.N LINDEMAN (N)
P/O C.H WALTERS (W/AG)
F/Sgt COLLINS (W/AG)
Off on Rover patrol 7.7.42 Kl 16.20 Engaged by 2 enemy aircraft Kl 18.50, reported by tail gunner. 1 aircraft hit by gunner and brok off, 2nd attacked 5 times befor braking off. Safe home after taking " violent evastive action" to get away from the enemy.

So now we hope people have picture / information on thees Aircrafts / happenings.
First we whould like to know the history off the G1 airframe in France.

This is the spesial feature with this airframe - for camera installation ?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/108070...posted-public/

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

I am confused by your last question.

There is nothing out of the ordinary in your photo. Please point to what "camera installation" you are referring to?

Mike

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

The two vertical stiffners abowe the compas hatch, and this hatch at the bottom. Not seen on any other airframe as we know. camera Equipent removed befor delivery to Jg5

https://www.flickr.com/photos/108070...posted-public/

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

to correct the information from Merlin:
The mentioned list of flights from Überführungskommando/Lzg Belgien-Nordfrankreich is an weekly report and not mentioned the dates of ferry. The W.Nr.14055 is mentioned in the "week" from 01.03 - 10.03.1943. So it's more probable the a/c was ferried in this time frame and not on 20.02.43.

In all probability the a/c was transported after the crash from 30.07.1942 directly to Antwerpen (an repairshop in Belgium not France) because the so-called "Durchlaufzeit" from 5-6 months for such an great degree of damage was normal.

To use F4 parts during the repair isn't surprising. At this time (the end of 1942) Erla VII repaired in first line Bf 109E/F and some G-1/2. Of course they had stored a lot F4-parts and they used it.

Greetings
Rasmussen

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

No too concerned about the stiffeners...this was common practice done to aircraft that were upgraded or were going through repairs. This 109 has them affixed randomly throughout. See first photo. This was done to give extra strength and support to the fuselage in general.

Galland's Me109 F4/U had alot of changes and upgrades, as well as TWO access hatches on the left side. This was because he added two MG151 INSIDE the wings (not as gondolas), as well as two MG131 above the engine. These two extra hatches were added to access the necessary "extra" equipment that was required for these new upgrades, as well keep easy access to the MW50 tank. The same was done to his upgraded E model (see 2nd photo).

As aircraft went to repair facilities (and even at factory), much of the equipment was upgraded internally. For example, at factory, ALL aircraft had the complete electrical system installed for wing gondolas as well as gun camera - even when none were intended.

I suspect the reason for finding the MK108 electrical box was due to the fact that as the MK108 was starting to show itself, repair facilities were already upgrading Me109's to the new standard...adding the newer weapons, as well as the electrical systems to support them. Though the MK108 was never installed on your bird, systems to "support" the Mk108 were.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

I agree Rasmussen, as in Mombeeks Jg5 volume 2, Jg5 recived som G2,s in March 1943

And on the LRG forum i recived this information today ( together with the fotos) from Mr Jochen Prien, confirming the aircraft as 14055 by the Wrk.Nr number 3, and the upper ving camo ( wavy pattern on desert camo)
At last after 28 years.

I trust you have seen the three photos of "White 3" in Service with 1./JG5 in JFV 10/III, p 331/332, showing a lot of interesting technical details of this ex-Bf109G-1 such as the cabin being void of any pressurisation equipment, the lack of the air intake on the port engine cowl and the wings with bumps on the upper surface to accommodate the upper part main wheel. The WerkNr. is clearly visible in one photo.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Now that we know this airframe of 14055 has been reassembled by Erla in anterpen, is there any singn to look for at parts ( stamps - letters - codes etc that is related to Erla ? We have this 388 and similar codes on the landing gears, conected to upgrades done by Erla ?

Ernst

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

This gives 14055 NI+BY lifspan:


Thanks for your confirmation Matti. This is the real identity of our airframe.
BF109 G1 W.Nr 14055. Built by Messerschmitt AG, Regensburg. Date March 1942, in block 14039-14063. Stkz found in LMBD database says NI + BY

Deliverd directly to 11(H)Jg26 ?

Crashed 1942-07-30, 11.(H)Jg26, Bf 109G-1, 14055, Fl.Pl. Audembert, Notlandung infolge Feindbeschuß. Bruch 70 %.

I found trough serch on circus 200, an all the ramrods conected to it, that the Belgian 350sqd had claimed 2 Me109 this day. 3 pilot`s had damaged the airframe, bout none had followed it to the crash at Auden bert.

Du Monceau de Bergendael with his spitfire VB sn EN794 code MN-X "USOKE" was the first to get hits on 14055, had to brake of, but saw later an acrcraft decending on the route to Audenbert.

SGT Jean Ester with his spitfire VB sn EN796 code MN-D "STANLEY"
Damaged 14055 so the engine stops, he also have to brake off due to other aircrafts.

P/O Henri.E Marchal. with Spitfire VB sn BM176 code MN-M "YAUNDE" Last to hit 14055 with both canon and mg, engine was not running and on desend towards France from near mid channel.


The aircraft was ferried on 20.02.43 from Deurne (where the repair was performed by Erla) to Vaerlöse (which acted as a Flugzeugschleuse for aircraft intended for JG 5).

and during transfer the engine was changed in Stade because of engine failure (the repair ended on 23.03.1943 and the a/c was flown to Vaerloese).


Rebuilt to G2 standard in a repairshopp in France ? Is there any info were JG2 sendt the damaged plane to.

Rebuilt by merging G1 with F4 trop airframe? we have a lot of parts / numbers sugesting this teory. Even the engine trottle linkage on the firewall ( 3 different positions ) our was bolted in the upper one saying E motor ( 601E for F4 )

New info from Remi and EdNorth from a flugbuch entry.
Dr.ing Christian Dietrich from E-stelle rechlin.
Flug nr 4793? 9.5.43 52min at Oranienburg 15.12 - 16.04 Me109 16600m
Prepairing for high altitude reco duties as a G2?


Ended in the northsee serving with 1/JG5
1943-07-07, 1./JG 5, Bf 109G-2, 14055, 3 weiße, Südwestlich Egersund, 90 km südwestlich Stavanger, Luftkampf mit Hampden. Bruch 100 %.

Causing the plane to crash was: RAAF 455 SQD
SN P.5302 UB - S
Crew S/Ldr B.R.D.O CONNOR (P)
F/O R.N LINDEMAN (N)
P/O C.H WALTERS (W/AG)
F/Sgt COLLINS (W/AG)
Off on Rover patrol 7.7.42 Kl 16.20 Engaged by 2 enemy aircraft Kl 18.50, reported by tail gunner. 1 aircraft hit by gunner and brok off, 2nd attacked 5 times befor braking off. Safe home after taking " violent evastive action" to get away from the enemy.

So now we hope people have picture / information on thees Aircrafts / happenings.
First we whould like to know the history off the G1 airframe in France.

This is the spesial feature with this airframe - for camera installation ?

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Ernst,
if you´re looking for the precise location of the production of WNr 14055 it´s Messerschmitt Regensburg-Prüfening in contrary to the late-war production site Mtt Regensburg-Obertraubling.
Here´s a website
http://www.regensburger-tagebuch.de/...rg-teil-1.html
and the administration building and a hangar are still standing and are used until today:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OI2fM9Thi-...ot-1510285.jpg

Regards
RolandF