Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Highest BG-losses by the 8th USAAF was on Sep. 27-1944, The Kassel Mission.
445 BG lost 35 out of 39 B24's, most downed in the Eisenach area by Lw Sturmgruppe fighters within 7 minutes.
US researchers just last month finished a 88 min. very impressive TV/Video-documentary (PAL too), presenting rare camerawork, guncamera-shots of both sides, intervieuws with involved pilots of Lw- and USAAF, German civilians, survivers. etc.
Really interested will get a lead to the US, to the producers by sending a mail to mbr. 8th. USAF Hist. Soc. J. de Swart, NL, (himself not profitable)>>
codeswart@wanadoo.nl

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

The June 26, 1943 scrap resulted in 56FG losing 5 for 2 destroyed/1 probable.

On November 1943 the 55th Fg lost 6 P-38's for 2 destroyed and 1 probable.

We talked about the 4th (above) but that day was actually a couple of separate engagements and the 4th claimed 5 destroyed for the day's losses of either 7 or 8 in the air (Fraser per above looks like he was not a 'claim by LW around 0620) and the 18th August was 9 lost for 7 destroyed - bad but not terrible considering they were suprised on the deck..

So far the most lopsided seems to be the 20th on February 11, 1944 for 8 P-38's down for 2 destroyed / 1 probable.

I've got to believe some other USAAF fighter group had a worse day than the above but haven't found it yet.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

One each i mean 1 for JG77 1 for JG53, 1 pilot was missing

remi

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

On 4th MArch 1943, II./JG 11 bounced a group of P-51s. According USAAF documentation 11 P-51s from 363th FG were lost (but mostly due to weather conditions.)

http://www.heinzknokewebsite.com/My-Site/Victory_22.htm

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Bill - 8th Fighter Command losses
3 - 29 - 44 - 18 Fighters
5- 28 -44 - 12 Fighters
6 - 6 -44 - 28 Fighters
6 - 7 - 44 - 26 Fighters
6- 8 - 44 - 27 Fighters
6 - 10 - 44 - 25 Fighters
6 - 19 - 44 - 16 Fighters
Some examples of " Tough days"
Mike

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

On the 26 June action, 56FG lost 5 a/c outright, with 7 damaged (2 listed as "Cat E" and written off upon return to England). According to II/JG26 records, it sustained no losses in this action.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Out of curiosity who else besides II/JG26 engaged 8th AF on June 26, 1943? The 4th also had claims... Did JG 26 or LW records discuss damaged ships on the 26th?

At any rate, even if all the 56th claims for that day were 'imaginary' (one of the these was Bob Johnson) then losing 5 in one day for zero score was down the list from the 20th and 55th FG losses (Nov 43 and Feb 44) and certainly the 4th FG losses on two missions on D-Day where they lost 8 for zero claims.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Mike - I'm looking for a 'bad beat' on a single group and so far the P-38's from 9th and 12AF look to be at the top and I know of a 9 Mustang loss in the pacific that was all weather but none of the pilots ever returned.

On your listings, for example, 3/29/44 had claims for 43.5 air/16 ground and of the 8AF fighter losses (I have 13 lost, you have 18) I have 4 lost air to air with the 4th losing 3 of those. The bad weather day of June 19 claimed all of the 16 (my sources) fighter losses with the 361st losing 6.

The worst single one you mentioned - June 6 - had total claims of 23 air and 5 ground for 27 losses (my source)... of that total all 8 of the air to air were inflicted on 4th (including ex 4th FG McPharlin who was with 339th but 'tagged along' with 4th).. and those were in two separate missions.. This is still the worst/most lopsided I have been able to find so far.

We covered the other LW achievements over the 4th. The 355th lost 4 on one bounce to I/JG11 (one possibly due to his own bombs) on June 7th which was its worst of the war.

Mike, what sources do you rely on the most?

I have found fewer 'cross correlation' errors between all my microfilm research on the 4th, 56th, 352/355 and 357 and Kent Miller's "Fighter Units and Pilots of the 8th AF" than any other source so far - so you will get these from me most of the time. After that Freemans Mighty 8th Diary was a long time source for me but I found a fair amount of errors in it (helluva project to try to sort all of it out).

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Bill - I should be a little more diligent when I look these up. Ex. 3 - 29 -44 I see there were 3 lost to accidents and 2 to AA.
On 6 - 10 - 44 the 78th lost 9 to enemy Fighters
6 -12 - 44 353d lost 9 '' '' ''
3 - 4 - 44 363d lost 11 '' ''' '''
The reference I use the most is the 4 volume set by Paul Andrews
1) Heavy Bombers of the Mighty Eighth - by name / serial #
2) Mighty Eighth Roll of Honor- 45, 000 names , macr , group etc. for Bomb crews and Fighter Pilots KIA, WIA, MIA , POW , evadees
3)8th AF Combat Chronology - day by day losses of Bomb and Fighter Groups. Names , location , macr includes accidents.
4) 8th AF Bomb Group Chronology - day by day Bomb Group losses. Lists bombers lost by Group. A/ C # , crew list , macr.
This study was commissioned by 8th Air Force Memorial Museum Foundation as " Project Bits and Pieces "
I also have Miller's 2 volume set and about a 300 book library.
Mike

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Incidentally, 5 of the P38s downed on 11 Feb 1944 were due to encounters with II/JG26.

According to Caldwell's JG26 War Diary vol 2, the lone JG26 loss on 26 June 1943 was a III/JG26 a/c downed by 4FG near Dieppe.

Here are the LW claims against 8AF on 26 June, courtesy of Tony Wood.

26.06.43 Ltn. Fritz Karch 6./JG 2 Spitfire

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Mike - I don't have that set. What were primary sources on losses?

I bounce back and forth from Group histories on microfilm to MACR databases on armyairforces.com to Mighty 8th Diary to different group histories.

Like you I have about a 300 book reference library on WWII and about 30 for Korea/VietNam plus 40 reels of microfilm from Maxwell. At one time Jeff Ethell and I were gonna collaborate on 8th Fighter Command, pool our respective notes on the 4th and 355th then work together on the rest. I got pretty deep on the losses, but there was no website for MACR's - we were going to have to work the cards and fische.

How can I get a copy of the Andrews set?

BTW, we still have a gap between Andrews and the other sources.

on the 10th I have MACR's for 7 Macr's on the 78th. The microfilm for 78th FG (not the 82/83/84FS have a total of 10 lost, 7 to fighters/2 to flak and one to a mid air over England. I've loaned out my Price book on the 78th so can't use taht today for another peek.

I have to dig up my 353 stuff but Miller has 8 air losses and the Macr database has 7 macrs for the 353rd on the 6-12 bad day (but also claimed 16 on two separate missions that day).. it looks like this mission will rank right up there on the worst single Squadron loss with 6 for the 350th.

As for the 4 March fiasco there was a lot of bad weather involved.. I think Heinz Knocke related four confirmed on the 363rd before they 'escaped' into cloud cover but surely there were other units in the area.

It does make for interesting conversations.. I know Miller used USAF and 8th AF Historical Research records along with Damick - which is why I am curious to see if Andrews cut thes facts in different ways?

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Bill - go to http://www.447bg.com/data/bp.pdf
As you will see they are not cheap but is a monumental work and a great research tool. I have seen them on E - bay and abebooks.com Primary sources on losses are MACRS
mike

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Sorry, Shooshoobaby, but your internet link doesn't work for me. Are there any alternate links, as the Paul Andrews books sound very interesting.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

George,
Strip off the end of the address, to get http://www.447bg.com then click on Books.

Frank.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Bill and George , Frank is correct . I added too much on the web address.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Mike - mine worked fine and I got in easily using your link.. I'm still pondering the value for $300 on the set but probably will do it.

Still, it bother me a little bit that no details on White/Reed/Cummins/Beaty and Lake (my earlier appeal) ar contained in the Combat Chronology that you have. My primary purpose would be to wrap up last of 355th/2SF details for revised ABD.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Bill - as you know , History is never perfect. I have sent corrected or new info to Paul a few times. Beaty , Cummins, Lake are listed , date unknown , no other info.
There is a Lt. Bob G. White listed 355th FG KIA 11 - 20 - 44 from New Mexico.No other info.

Are you looking for Rod W. Reed ?

I got my set about 5 years ago - it had some addendums. Maybe these have been updated?
Mike

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Thank you very much for the revised address.
George

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Gentleman:

A belated comment, but I just recalled that in JG 26 War Diary Volume Two, Caldwell states that the 4FG P-51 that aborted with a bad magneto and was lost on 6 6 44 is a good match for a P-51 claim SE of Caen by Oblt Kunz of I/JG 26.

Might be another small piece in a very big jigsaw puzzle.

Cheers

Don (Boomerang)

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Could be Don -

it may be interesting but insignificant, but by my calculation the 4th lost more air to air than any other 8AF Fighter Group by nearly a 2x factor over the 56th, for example, and they had the lowest air to air ratios.

From a perspective of air to air ratios vs Luftwaffe it was in the 5:1 range whereas the 56th was closer to 11:1 (This discounts all flak, all mechanical and all accidents' - just pure fighter vs Fighter)..

Regards,

Bill