Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Yes no prob thats what I meant Orsova - Turnu Severin area. Will you please indicate which fighter group was in the Turnul Severin area and which claimed what in that area ? Thanks in advance
PS : Fifteenth Air Force against the Axis was published in 2013 , all my material is dated 1945 to 2007 . I am very curious on the updates and on how objective they are .

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Thanks Larry, sofar this is more or less in line with my material with one exception related to the location of both aerials . I ordered the book and will revert as soon
as I have new details. Thanks again for your efforts

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Larry, on 16 April, a "He 111" was claimed by 2nd Lt. Robert G. Griffin of the 97th FS, 82nd FG, 30 m E of Turnu Severin, at noontime.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Dénes -

Thanks. That should help researcher111 eliminate the 82d FG claim. He still lacks info for the 1st FG claim.

L.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Hi Egbert, this is the info i have from a DLM in Rumanien crash report :

10.5.1944 Ju52 Wnr. 501325 / Halter : OKM Berlin / Ort : Toplet 10km N Orsova in a hill area called Culmea Neagra / In folge niedriger Wolken-unreadable Bodenberurhung Aufschlagbrand 100% / 8 tote - 10 schw. ( verwundet ? ) / The wreck was recovered by Bergungskompanie 2/2 on 6.6.1944 and sent to Wiener Neustadt

Since me and other friends happen to be involved in WW2 aircraft archaeology and due to the remote location of the crash site I think we will give it a go this year, I will keep you posted on the results. Culmea Neagra should be easy to find as beneath it there is a cave which is often researched by speleologists.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Crashed and caught fire as a result of hitting the ground due to low-lying clouds.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Hi muggs,
Werknummer shall read 501326 and I cannot find the Culma Neagra some 9km n/w of Toplet on any map or desription (translated)......

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Hi Egbert, I will upload this evening the scan, in it it is clearly written 501325 but I won't argue if it's correct or not, i'm just forwarding what I found :)

As for Culmea Neagra it seems to be way far more to the NW of Toplet, about 50 km actually so that clearly is not the actual crash place, i will look these days on a set of maps of the area from the 1930's to see what similarly called places are near Toplet.

Culmea Neagra as of now : http://bit.ly/1zv2Ik4

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Mihai, I suggest you have a look at the altitude the WAST claims the crash happened: 1052 meters. This gives only one option, that of the dominating mountain ridge some 9-14km n/w of Toplet (see post # 9). Do you happen to have access to a proper (other than my Googleearth) map, say 1:50.000 or so?
Your suggested location of C.N. is way out of range at 64km n/w of Toplet

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Hello Rabe von Alabama,
501 325 was PO+GO, while 501 326, not surprisingly, PO+GP.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Sigh - so Matti with WAST information says for 10.5.44 WNr. 501326, PO+GO

others say WNr 501 325 was PO+GO, while 501 326, not surprisingly, PO+GP

Which WNr was it infact 501325 or 501326 that crashed and which identifyer GO or GP please? I am puzzled please help me get back on track.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Gentlemen,

For the time being I have in my database based on the NVMs:
16.4.1944 crash 501325. No SKZ was given.
10.5.1944 crash 501326 and SKZ PO+GO, which seems to be a wrong combination.
I will be in March in Berlin and will then check whether I have made a typo or what. Before that I cannot do anything.
Of course I have to check then also 3225, PH+OI, which was given by "Gerd 190" for the crash on 10.5.1944.
Patience for a while.

Matti

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Right on Matti. Have a great time in Berlin and please report back on what you found for 10.5.44

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

The c/n 3225 comes from a report in the KTB Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M. May 1944:
10.05.44 Kurierstaffel OKM Berlin-Staaken, 9km NNW Toplet (PQ 2518 East 24, Height 1051, Kampfauftrag (Fighting order), crash on the ground, fire after impact, not observed by enemy, Ju 52 c/n 3225, marking: PH+OI, 100%, dead:
O.F. Brunnhaber (F), O.F. Kunkel (BF), Kptltn. Rosenbaum U-Flottille Schwarzmeer and 7 other passengers (name, rank etc. unknown)
wounded: Uffz. Strichling (BW) and 6 passengers (name, rank etc. unknown)
In another file, there is a report from Standortkdtr. Orsova , dated 25.07.1944 asking for the date of burial and the location of the graves for the soldiers from the crash on 10.05.1944 6km southwest Toplez with Ju 52 PH+OJ.
It also ask, if a Uffz. Griesmeier was amoung the ones buried.
The c/n 501325 comes from the salvage report mentioned by Rabe.
The crash location is given as Topleti, 10 km north Orsova, Punka Culmea-Neagra (handwriting not easy to read), due to low cloud level crash with ground and caught fire on impact, unit: OKM Berlin, salvage by 2/2 started
06.06.1944, parts were send to S.u.L. Stelle Wiener Neustadt, 8 dead, 10 severe wounded, 1 slightly wounded.
So even the primary documents gives different informations about the crash.
Regards

Dirk

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Dirk great information, also for your off-line infos!. Thanks again.

Now with that information , especially with the location of the crash to be grid square 2518 Ost (East) 24, I ask if anybody has a Luftwaffe grid square map for the exact identification of the crash location please?
The online converter by hurley offers for 24 Ost and 25xx this grid square. But where is (25) 18 within these squares?

http://666kb.com/i/cvuzurtyvhndrukwg.jpg

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Could it be this?????

http://666kb.com/i/cvv0erktqp8mbcndc.jpg

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Some news:

Information from ”Gerd 190” seems to be correct. The original NVM Nr. 8 of Kurierstaffel O.K.M. (Berichtzeitraum 25 März – 22 Mai 1944) at WASt has no info on the aircraft WNr. or SKZ. It contains only information on the crew of three but no info on the passengers. Therefore my previously given WNr. was incorrect and 501326 should not be connected to this crash. My apologies!.

According to my present understanding this loss is as follows:

1944-05-10, Kurierstaffel O.K.M., Ju 52/3m, 3225, PH+OI, Höhe 1051, 9 km nordnordwestlich Toplet bei Orsova, Absturz infolge Bodenberührung. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Ofw Brunnhuber, Georg, +
Bordfunker Ofw Kunkel, Josef, +
Bordwart Uffz Striebing, Willi, verletzt (Am 1944-05-20 seinen Verletzungen erlegen)
Fluggast Olt Schörp, +
Fluggast Kapitänleutnant (Flotillenchef) Rosenbaum, Helmut, +
Fluggast Marine-Baurat Heger, +
Fluggast Lt Drüner, +
Fluggast Maj Diederichs, +
Fluggast Stabsobemaschinist Dany, +
Fluggast Olt.z.S. Mertineit, verletzt
Fluggast A, +
Fluggast B, verletzt
Fluggast C, verletzt
Fluggast D, verletzt
Fluggast E, verletzt
Fluggast F, verletzt
Fluggast G, verletzt

Still open questions:
”Researcher111” in his msg 17 says, that there were 15 passengers and 2 pilots, total 17. However, there was actually a crew of 3, which leaves 14 for passengers. Also he says, that a total of 10 soldiers perished in the crash including two crew members. ”muggs ro” gives in his msg 46 from a DLM crash report 8 dead and 10 wounded, which contradicts with the previous info. ”red-star25” in his message 56 quotes 8 dead, 10 severe wounded and 1 lightly wounded. Again not quite consistent with the previous info.

Can anybody confirm the number of the passengers, their names and their fate?

Another problem was the crash of 16 April 1944

The original NVM Nr. 38 of III/TG 4, (Berichtzeitraum 7.4. – 17.4.1944) at WASt has no info on the aircraft WNr. or SKZ. It contains only information on the crew but no info on the passengers. With a pen somebody has added ”Ju 52, 501325”, which obviously was taken from the GQM report. This loss is dated 16 April 1944.

The same NVM contains also information on the crew of a loss on 17 April 1944 32 km südlich Orsova. Again, this NVM has no info on the aircraft or passengers.

The original NVM Nr. 30 of IV/JG 54 (Berichtzeitraum 16.4.1944) at WASt has information on three pilots, but no info on the aircraft. With a pen somebody has added ”Flogen mit III/TG 4, Ju 52, 501325”, which obviously was taken from the GQM report.

The original NVM Nr. 31 of IV/JG 54 (Berichtzeitraum 16.4.1944) at WASt has information on 9 technical persons of IV/JG 54 who were killed 9 km west from Orsowa. There is no info on the aircraft, but based on the loss location, it should be 501325

The original NVM Nr. 32 of IV/JG 54 (Berichtzeitraum 16.4.1944) at WASt has information on 12 technical persons of IV/JG 54 who were killed 32 km from Orsowa at eisernen Tor. There is no info on the aircraft.

”egbert” in his msg 29 wrote the following quote ”Another 16 men came to death on 17 April 1944 when the Ju 52/3m g8e W.Nr. 501132 1Z+JX of 11./TG 4 was hit by Allied escort fighters and ditched on the Danube river in an attempted emergency landing some 32 km South of Orsava."

By combining this with the previous information, we have the following losses:

1944-04-16, 9./TG 4, Ju 52/3mg8e, 501325, Bei Toplitz, 9 km westlich Orsowa, am Eisernen Tor, Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Fw Hebstreit, Ludwig, +
Bordfunker Uffz Kürschner, Heinz, +
Bordwart Uffz Scharinger, Josef, +
Bordschütze Uffz Kupczak, Albin, +
Fluggast Uffz Elbinger, Johannes, +
Fluggast Ogfr Gravogel, Franz, +
Fluggast Uffz Grimm, Alfred, +
Fluggast Uffz Hey, Walter, +
Fluggast Uffz Marx, Fritz, +
Fluggast Uffz Neger, Hubert, +
Fluggast Gefr Nonn, Helmut, +
Fluggast Gefr Siemon, Edmund, +
Fluggast Uffz Trafoyer, Kurt, +
Fluggast Gefr Treutel, Robert, +
Fluggast Gefr Urban, Heinz, +
Fluggast Fw Wilkens, Hartmut, +

1944-04-16 oder 1944-04-17, 11./TG 4, Ju 52/3m, 501132, 1Z+JX, 32 km südlich Orsowa, Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Dieterle, Hans, +
Bordfunker Fw Müller, Walter, +
Bordwart Uffz Neiteler, Albert, +
Bordschütze Gefr Tatzel, August, +
Fluggast Gefr Barka, Vinzent, +
Fluggast Flg Dippner, Heinz, +
Fluggast Fw Eichinger, Franz, +
Fluggast Fw Gehre, Hermann, +
Fluggast Ogfr Hausotter, Rudolf, +
Fluggast Gefr Hofmann, Horst, +
Fluggast Gefr Nass, Joachim, +
Fluggast Uffz Neufang, Servatius, +
Fluggast Ofw Stamm, Anton, +
Fluggast Ogfr Wichern, Otto, +
Fluggast Ogfr Wolff, Günther, +
Fluggast Ogfr Ziegler, Friedrich, +

Question: Which date is correct for the last loss: 1944-04-16 of 1944-04-17?

Hope that the facts will finally be revealed.

Matti

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Matti

Thanks for the update. I think this final update matches more or less both events .

My info was taken from Major Rudy Klemm JG 54 war diaries which were left to me
by him prior his fatal aircraft accident here near Swiss border many years ago.

According his diary a total of 17 persons were on board of Ju 52/3m, 3225, PH+OI and
I have no way to explain the slight discrepancies between his records your update
and the other posts on here .

On his diary there is nothing mentioned about a Bordwart ( flight attendant )
but a gunner who died due injuries later on while Klemm put the accent on
Oberleutnant zur See Mertineit and Kapitänleutnant Rosenbaum fates which
as far as I am concerned the last may have been higher ranked upon his death
than Kaleu (Major ) coze Flottilenchef is normally higher ranked, though I may be wrong.

As into the crashes of 1944-04-16, 9./TG 4, Ju 52/3mg8e, 501325 and 11./TG 4, Ju 52/3m,
501132, 1Z+JX 1944-04-17, this is what I can say :

On April 17 , 44 two JU-52 were shot down by 82nd FG escorting 5th BG to the Yugoslav coast
and back, how these P-38's arrived as far as Orsova Romania if indeed they did, it remains a mistery
because was far off course .

On April 16,44 1st and 82nd FG's were escorting bombers to Turnul Severin which
is kind of near to Orosva , 3 enemy bombers were claimed by both FG's and I have
hard time to believe that the "little friends " pilots confused JU-52's with enemy
bombers .

This all I know

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Matti thanks for your updated information, much appreciated!

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Coming back to my very first posting in this thread and the information of the dead being buried in Orsova, Romania. Orsova is the next largest town near the crash site.
With the crash victims there are some other 70+ German war dead from WW! and II on a totally neglected Romanian/Russian war cemetery. One year of negotiation with the German war grave commission (Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge) resulted in the official application to Romanian authorities to get permission for all the 70+ dead to be reburied on to a permanent Germany cared concentration cemetery in Romania. All looks good so far and the final approval and start of works is not expected before 1 or 2 years from now.
More infos from me on:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...opic=10434&hl=

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Pictures from 2014:

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Update:
Today I received a phone call from a VdK official. The Romanian authorities, in this case the Romanian MoD, has rejected to relocate the rotten, deteriorated 78 German graves from WWI and II to a proper cared VdK -cemetery in Romania. No explanation came forward to the official Volksbund request for relocation on own German expenses. The 2 year old request seemed to sit idle at a corrupt MoD official's desk. Even the VdK is furious but what can you do with Romania being a "reliable" NATO country, whose veteran's and war grave affaires are handled within the MoD? Well the VdK has immediately launched a new request and consequently I have to wait another 2 years for a response to give the dead a decent and well cared place in a VdK concentration cemetery in central Romania. Unbelievable and only possible in the wild Eastern European hemisphere despite an existing MoU between Germany and Romania on the commonly agreed and mutual work of their war grave commissions, dated and signed 25/06/1996 . The ex-communist hardliners still seem to prevail....and the VdK driven by law and ethics of course is not paying the proper bribe to the Romanian MoD official which is believed to be headed by a colonel.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

STRIKING NEWS


As I am writing this post, the VdK is in situ at Orsova cemetery for probing the graves. This is to ensure the graves are existing according to the plot plan. it is the necessary prerequisite for possible later relocation to a cared cemetery.

The German graves have been relocated by the Romanians in the 70s due to the flooding of the old and original nearby Danube river military cemetery to higher grounds.

THEY REPORTED.........



The first grave probing right now at this minute shows that nothing, no bodies, are in the marked German graves that have been investigated right now.



A huge Romanian sting concerning the 78 German graves from WWI and II?

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Update as of 13:00hrs

got a call from the team - they dug at and around several graves with no whatsoever finds all morning long. The VdK team still works on place ; a suspicion that raises - the Romanian Red Cross that turned over the individual plot plan with all 78 graves in the 1970s has created a fake plan with a so called propaganda grave site to show the German officials that everything has been cared of nicely. In the telephone call I learned that the VdK has several such examples of Romania and other Eastern countries falsifying official records to sham cared war graves ......

Team will continue until tomorrow.....

P.S. The emerging story is also valid for the other Ju52 crash from 16 April 44. They are buried on the same cemetery.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

I wonder that nobody is interested in the news.

So I was informed today about the final result : all German military Orsova graves are fakes.
The Volksbund team has done all the probe digs and nothing was found in the 78 graves from WW1 and WW2 to include the victims from the 1944 Ju52 crashs who are lost forever!

In early 1970 up to today the Romanians falsified all grave documents and with the help of mayor and associates, local priest, Romanian Red Cross, MoD created a fake cemetery and betrayed the next of kin and German authorities.

All graves most likely still lie in the submerged old cemetery that is now sunken in the Danube River at Orsova and were never reburied to higher grounds as "documented".

Welcome to Romania!

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Please keep us informed! Thanks, in advance.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

I tend to speculate that the some 38 or so Hungarian military graves on same smoke and mirrors cemetery are a sham as well....?!