Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Sadly the project seems to be dead, anyone has any insider info ?

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

H. Gr. Mitte 12454 - added 7, 107, 125, 134, 147, 151, 159, 395, 396, 398, 399, 408, 421, 422, 423, 427, 435, 438, 440, 446, 455, 456, 459, 467, 487, 500, 501, 504, 525, 530, 538, 626, 645, 714, 742, 764.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Thank you, Dmitry :) You have a private message.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Thanks Dmitry !!

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Hv few to do with Luftwaffe oder ...

Rémi

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Guys,

Appears to be a major update "Findbuch 12474 - Armeekorps" together with a requirement to accept conditions on entering the site each time.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Legion Condor:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/r...de/grid/zoom/1

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Dmitry,

Many thnaks - filed away for future reference.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Thanks for the update!

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Your "heads up" notifications regarding new uploads on the Podolsk website are most appreciated, Dmitry! Please continue with these - there seems to be a flurry of new activity on the site right now after months of lying dormant.

L.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

I'm eagerly awaiting all the LW documents. Untill now only the headlines are shown.

Junker

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Some other documents which are not yet listed :

KTB Stab./KG 77 1939

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1


An OOB for Luftflotte 4 in 1939

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...inspect/zoom/7

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Guys,

Two new Findbuchs have appeared:-

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...1-10-1937-1945

Item 9 from the above contains some interesting items regarding (H)./13 sorties and recce photos.


http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...-der-wehrmacht

Don't know if there will be much contained overall that is relevant to Luftwaffe research.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

A look on what I'm waiting for and there is more:
4088
Kriegsstärkenachweisung verschiedener Einheiten der Luftwaffe, darunter Richtlinien für die Verwendung des Bodenpersonals.
1
4089
Kriegsstärkenachweisungen für Personalaufgliederung der Luftwaffe, insbesondere für technische Werkstätte und Flakartillerie.
1
4090
Kriegstagebuch (Tagesmappe) der Luftflotte 4.
1
4091
Kriegstagebuch 1 II./ Kampfgeschwader 77.
1
4092
Kriegstagebuch 10. Flugsicherungskompanie (14. Fernsprechersatzkompanie) des Luftnachrichten-Regiments 4.
1
4093
Kriegstagebuch 11(15). Luftnachrichten-Regiment 4 für die Zeit vom 01.09. - 30.11.1939.
1
4094
Kriegstagebuch 2 I./ Jagdgeschwader 76.
1
4095
Kriegstagebuch 2(F) 121.
1
4096
Kriegstagebuch 3(F) 122.
1
4097
Kriegstagebuch 4(6). Luftnachrichten-Regiment 4 für die Zeit vom 26.08. - 31.10.1939.
1
4098
Kriegstagebuch der Flieger-Division 2: Tagesberichte mit Verlustlisten, Unterstellung und Verlegung der Verbände, Personalstärke, Namensliste der Offiziere und Beamten.
1
4099
Kriegstagebuch der Fliegerdivision 3: tägliche Kampfberichte, Wetterübersichten, Kriegsrangliste der Offiziere und Gefechtsstärke.
1
4100
Kriegstagebuch der Führungsabteilung des Luftflottenkommandos 4. Polenkrieg 1939.
1
4101
Kriegstagebuch der Kampfstaffel 4 des Kampfgeschwaders 26.
1
4102
Kriegstagebuch der Kampfstaffel 5 des Kampggeschwaders 26.
1
4103
Kriegstagebuch der Kampfstaffel 6 der Kampfgruppe II des Kampfgeschwaders 26.
1
4104
Kriegstagebuch der Luftflotte 4 (Tagesmappe).
1
4105
Kriegstagebuch der Stabsstaffel des Kampfgeschwaders 4 "General Wever".
1
4106
Kriegstagebuch der Stabsstaffel des Kampfgeschwaders 4: durchgeführte Frontflüge.
1
4107
Kriegstagebuch der Stabsstaffel des Kampfgeschwaders 76.
1
4108
Kriegstagebuch der Stabsstaffel des Kampfgeschwaders 77.
1
4109
Kriegstagebuch der Stabsstaffel des Kampfgeschwaders "Hindenburg".
1
4110
Kriegstagebuch der Staffel 1 des Kampfgeschwaders 53.
1
4111
Kriegstagebuch der Staffel 2 des Kampfgeschwaders 53.
1
4112
Kriegstagebuch der Staffel 3 des Kampfgeschwaders 53.
1
4113
Kriegstagebuch der Staffel 5 des Kampfgeschwaders 77.
1
4114
Kriegstagebuch der Staffel 6 des Kampfgeschwaders 77.
2
4115
Kriegstagebuch des Höheren Nachrichtenführers der 2. und 4. Gruppen der Luftflotte 4.
1
4116
Kriegstagebuch des Höheren Nachrichtenführers der Luftflotte 4 (01.09.1939 - 16.03.1940).
1
4117
Kriegstagebuch des IV/Kampfgeschwaders v. b.V. 2.
1
4118
Kriegstagebuch des Kampfgeschwaders 1.
1
4119
Kriegstagebuch des Kampfgeschwaders 26.
1
4120
Kriegstagebuch des Kampfgeschwaders 4 "General Wever".
1
4121
Kriegstagebuch des Kampfgeschwaders 4: Angriffsmeldungen mit Erfolgen.
1
4122
Kriegstagebuch des Luftflottenkommandos 4 mit den Anlagen. Auswertung der Erfahrungen auf dem Gebiet des zivilen Luftschutzes.

4124
Kriegstagebuch des Stabes des Kampfgeschwaders 55.
1
4125
Kriegstagebuch des Stabes des Kampfgeschwaders 76.
1
4126
Kriegstagebuch des Stabes des Kampfgeschwaders 77.
1
4127
Kriegstagebuch des Stabes des Sturzkampfgeschwaders 77 für die Zeit vom 25.08. - 01.10.39.
1
4128
Kriegstagebuch des Stabes I./ des Kampfgeschwaders 76.
1
4129
Kriegstagebuch des Stabes III./4 Luftnachrichten-Regiment 4 für die Zeit vom 26.08.1939 - 09.04.1940.
1
4130
Kriegstagebuch I./ 77 Jagdgeschwader 01.- 21.09.1939.
1
4131
Kriegstagebuch I./ des Kampfgeschwaders 53.
1
4132
Kriegstagebuch I./ Jagdgeschwader 76.
1
4133
Kriegstagebuch I./ Kampfgeschwader 4 "General Wever".
1
4134
Kriegstagebuch I./ Kampfgeschwader 55.
1
4135
Kriegstagebuch I./ Kampfgeschwader 77.
1
4136
Kriegstagebuch I./ Stuka 76 für die Zeit vom 01.09. - 30.09.1939.
1
4137
Kriegstagebuch I./ Sturzkampfgeschwader 1 01.- 30.09.1939.
1
4138
Kriegstagebuch I./ Sturzkampfgeschwader 77 für die Zeit vom 25.08. - 29.09.1939.
1
4139
Kriegstagebuch I./ Zerstörergeschwader 2.
1
4140
Kriegstagebuch I/Kampfgeschwader Nr. 1 "Hindenburg".
1
4141
Kriegstagebuch II. (Schlacht) Lehrgeschwader 2.
1
4142
Kriegstagebuch II./ Kampfgeschwader 26.
1
4143
Kriegstagebuch II./ Kampfgeschwader 4 "General Wever".
1
4144
Kriegstagebuch II./ Kampfgeschwader 55.
1
4145
Kriegstagebuch II./ Luftnachrichten-Regiment 101 für die Zeit vom 10.09. - 31.10.1939.
1
4146
Kriegstagebuch II./ Sturzkampfgeschwader 77 für die Zeit vom 25.08. - 01.10.1939.
1
4147
Kriegstagebuch III./ Kampfgeschwader 4.
1
4148
Kriegstagebuch III./ Kampfgeschwader 76.
1
4149
Kriegstagebuch III./ Kampfgeschwader 77.
1
4150
Kriegstagebuch III./ Stuka 2 07.-22.09.1939.
1
4151
Kriegstagebuch III./ Stuka "Immelmann" 2.
1
4152
Kriegstagebuch IV (Sturzkampf)Gruppe Lehrgeschwader 1 25.-29.09.1939.
1
4153
Kriegstagebuch mit Anlagen I(F) 124.
1
4154
Kriegstagebuch Nr. 1 III./ Kampfgeschwader 4 "General Wever".
1
4155
Kriegstagebuch Nr. 2 IV Kampfgeschwader z. b. V. 2.
1
4156
Kriegstagebuch vom 04.09.1939 der Luftflotte 4, Sammelbogen.
1
4157
Kriegstagebuch-Anlagen des Höheren Nachrichtenführers der Luftflotte 4 (31.08.1939 - 06.03.1940).
1
4158
Kriegstagebuch. Tagesmappe des Luftflottenkommandos 4.

Junker

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

In "Bestand " 500 ,,?

Rémi

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Nothing after 1940?

Such a shame. I and many others here will be dead and long gone by the time they finish digitizing this collection. :cry:

L.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

I hope not, Larry...

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

I plan to be frozen with instructions to revive me when the 1944 Gen.Qu. loss returns are rediscovered!

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Better invest into a time machine, Nick.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

[quote=Larry deZeng;252735]Nothing after 1940?

Larry, most of the KTBs in the f.500 are about the Polish campaign 1939. It seems the sole "Polish" collection was captured. Almost nothing like this for 1941-45, unfortunately. Few sporadic pieces only.
Luftwaffe reports in the Heeres documents are far more numerous.



Best regards,
Andrey

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Nick Beale wrote:
Indeed, where could these be? I put my money on the removal of 1944 for study by Allied (probably U.S.) researchers immediately after the war, then misplaced by them and never returned to rejoin the other Verlustmeldungen Leitz binders or files. There is some corroboration for this in:

Eckert, Astrid M. The Struggle for the Files: The Western Allies and the Return of German Archives After the Second World War. WashDC: Cambridge University Press, 2013. ISBN: 978-1-107-62920-2. Pb. 427p. Abbreviations. Bibliography (extensive). Index. (Comment: a scholarly masterpiece but awkwardly written.)

L.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Larry, probably lost in translation ???

Not everything is listed in BArc database, and they have, I am told, habit of refiling.

Many IWM FD numbers are quoted (Speer Collection) but not all. I am looking for two IWM FD doc numbers,

that do not appear in BArc inventio. FD 5546/45 and FD 5610/45.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Ed -
The only problem with the Imperial War Museum (IWM) hypothesis is that since the early 1970's a good 50,000 Lw. researchers, historians and enthusiasts have searched every nook and cranny of IWM and its storage facility at RAF Duxford for the missing 1944 Verlustmedlungen. What are the odds that the staff and all of these people missed it?

L.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

[quote]Thanks, Andrey. Ever since Glasnost and Boris Yeltsin, news of this collection (Sonderarchiv) of German documents captured by the Red Army dribbled out in bits and pieces - some factual, some delusional - in Prologue, the magazine of the U.S. National Archives, and in the bi-monthly newsletter of the U.S. Holocaust Museum in Washington. I kept close watch on both from around 1993 to 2010 or so. These claimed there were "thousands" of boxes of Luftwaffe documents found and seized in East Germany in 1945-47 and many more containing Lw. documents captured in the field, especially during Bagration in summer 1944. It was also said that a "huge" amount of this material was for the 1942-45 period.

So now it appears that a lot of this information about the holdings of the Sonderarchiv Moskau is incorrect? That's an enormous disappointment.

The Luftwaffe reports that appear in the Germany Army (Heer) records are identical in style to those that appear in the microfilmed German Army records in NARA RG 242 Microcopies T-311, T-312 and T-313. They were so generalized and redacted by the Luftwaffe before being distributed to the Army that they are today of little value or interest to air war researchers and historians. As you know, the Luftwaffe and the German Army did not get along all that well, to say the least. This rivalry and petty jealousy kept the Luftwaffe from sharing much with their comrades in Feldgrau other than the bare essentials.


L.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

You read it wrong. Misfiling can have happened at any point.

BTW, IWM Duxford holdings are so "inaccessable" (obstacle race kind) ATM to be a disgrace and insault to real researchers, except you have plenty time and bottomless pockets to draw funds from. Had correspondance with Boss there only weeks ago.
Can write more stronger words but dont.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

I think the actual number might be several thousand lower but I'm with Larry on this.

Ed - There's a very good reason you can't find those two items at the BA-MA. Only so-called State material has been restituted to Freiburg, material relating to so-called private enterprises has been retained as war booty although of course one does from time to time run across material which appears to defy this rule. These two files are at Duxford - FD 5546/45 (Speer Collection Box 206) and FD 5610/45 (Speer Collection Box 208).

I have spent a fair amount of time cross referencing Duxford's Speer Collection guide to a separate box list they held to give an indication as to which files they still held in paper format and would be happy to send this to you if you can send me a PM with your e-mail address. Unfortunately, it's too big to upload here. Everything they returned from this collection was microfilmed and forms part of their Speer Collection microfilms.

The only problem with access at present is that the these boxes are in deep storage as Building 6 is currently the subject of extensive refurbishment. These works are likely to be completed in early 2019 when hopefully something approaching normal service will be resumed although researchers will from then on need to work in the new reading room.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Ah, Steve, great to know. Thanks.
Will send PM.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Ed - PM received and list provided.

I should also write a few lines in defence of Duxford and Stephen Walton in particular. The inaccessibility is simply due to the significant building works being undertaken, coupled with the removal of asbestos related materials before these works could commence. The extent of these works has meant that the files and microfilm reels have had to go into deep storage. Stephen was good enough to let me visit in February just as the boxes were being removed. The material is accessible under very limited conditions and with 28 days notice which frankly means anyone interested in any of the files is best off waiting for the building work to be completed which will be early 2019.

Researchers will be hard pressed to find a more accommodating and helpful archivist than Stephen Walton. I can't speak too highly of him.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

"Thousands" might be just be handful of nerds like us looking... Took five emails get beyond IWM outer defences, and fill in forms and then get "not open" answer. Nothing personal but its a hindrance on a very long route. If Mr. Green ever went there or Kew, it must have been just for coffee. The other William did not. No indication of Manfred or Eddie going either that I know of. But further comment make thread go off topic.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Steve Coates wrote in part:
I couldn't agree more. I had a number of e-mail dealings with him in 2015, 2016 and 2017 and found him to be helpful, pleasant and prompt in his replies.

L.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

I'm with Larry: he is a credit to researchers.

Bruce

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Hello all

I have a feeling that f.500 collection have received somewhat unjust treatment in the commentaries above. Judging by what is already on their website this collection contains true gems. For example, lets look at the report which I've attached to this post. According to this document Major Barkhorn claimed 274 victory on 1 November 1944 (contrary to all claim lists known for me) and that Ltn. Peter Düttmann made five claims on this date, reaching the total of 123, (contrary to four victories mentioned in Tony Wood lists). Also please not that the daily total of victories mentioned in document is higher then the number of victories which could be found in Tony Wood's list. So yes, previously unknown claims. Beside that, it provides a date for some of Obstlt. Rudel's claims.

Also some folders which are already online contain unique information regarding Lfl. 1 activity in Courland

Anyway, it would take me several hundred years of lifetime to study all LW documents that are already available or known to exist. So I've already accepted, that I could not learn all by default, whether all LW documents will eventually be found or not. Of course, unless Idun would give me golden apple!

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Andrei wrote:
- Do you mean all surviving Lw. documents worldwide or just those in Russia?

- I tried the website wwiigermandocsinrussia.org but I could not access in. You described this as "their website" and "true gems" can be found listed there. How can we access this website and these listings? I normally use:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d.../1-bestand-500
to get to the f.500 material but there is no way to go from there to the listings you spoke of. What am I doing wrong? I suspect the Lw. "gems" you referred to are in a Fond different from the now familiar f.500?


Any help with these questions would be most appreciated, Andrei.


L.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Larry

Yes, I mean all surviving LW documents worldwide

The path to the document in attachment is watermarked at the bottom of it:
CAMO_500_12472_345_0178 which means:
f.500 Findbuch 12472 Akte 345 Blatt 178. The number of scanned frames is not necessarily the same as the number of pages, so the actual page number had been watermarked to allow one to make correct reference.

As you can see this document is in the folder containing Heer documents. Exactly like LW documents which could be found in T311 - T315 document series at NARA.

You have previously wrote in post #64 that "They were so generalized and redacted by the Luftwaffe before being distributed to the Army that they are today of little value or interest to air war researchers and historians."

I've attached this document to show that these:
1) could be not so generalised
2) contain unique information previously unknown to LW researches
3) provide useful insights into day-to-day activity of the German air force

I would like to say a few words about the latter point. The document in the attachment shows, that in the autumn of 1944 despite shortages of fuel, tactical Luftwaffe formations could still make a high number of sorties per day (243 by I. Flg.Korps at given date) by substituting twin-engined machines with single-engined ground attack aircraft. Fw 190's acting as ground-attack aircraft did not required fighter escort, hence relatively low daily total of sorties by fighters. It shows supposed effectivenes of specialised anti-tank aircraft (six claims for eight sorties). High number of reconnaissance sorties suggests that in late 1944 Luftwaffe was still trying to monitor battlefield situation virtually in real time just as in its glory days in 1941. A few lines could tell so much!

In my opinion such information is not only of great value or interest, but it also significantly alters the popular view that by that stage of the war Luftwaffe was finished and was unable to provide effective air support of ground forces

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Hi,

How it is possible to have access to the other Luftwaffe related files ?

I could only find this one :
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...inspect/zoom/4
which is part of Findbuch 12452

But when I tried to go to Findbuch 12452 :
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...-luftwaffe-okl
I received a blank page.

Many thanks in advance and best regards

Luc

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Thank you very much for the comprehensive reply, Andrei. It looks like we had a bit of a misunderstanding because I failed to make myself as clear as I should have.

You indirectly answered my first question, I think. Your 2 samples pages came from the records that are already available in f.500. There are no separate Fonds of Luftwaffes. There are no inventory lists of all Luftwaffe documents captured by Soviet forces during and right after the war. One of the earlier contributors to this thread, possibly Jörn Junker, seemed to list a large number of Luftwaffe documents in Russian hands that have not yet been digitized. Naturally, I assumed he got these from some sort of an inventory list produced by the German Documents in Russia Project people.

To be clear, the samples you provided are just exactly what I and many others are looking for: the daily reports of the Luftflotten, Fliegerkorps and Fliegerdivisionen that detail combat operations would be of great interest, to most of us. As inted out, there are only a few of these that survived the war and these are scattered about in various files that would take years to examine. I have examined most of the T-311, T-312 and T-13 microfilms
beginning in 1982 so I know that there isn't much for the 1941-45 period in the East. There were a few exceptions of course, such as the IV. Fliegerkorps daily reports from September 1941 through February 1942, Fliegerführer Süd reports for the first half of 1942, and a few scattered daily reports from 1. and 4. Fliegerdivisionen from May/June 1942 to spring 1943. However, those daily reports specifically produced by the Luftflotten for distribnution to the Heeresgruppen and Armeeoberkommandos were generalized and void of details. See the Anlagen Bände of AOK 18 in T-312 for examples.

Thanks again, Andrei.

L.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

All those files that I listed have been scanned, but not made public yet.
There will be a lot of specific LW material in these and other files. Eastern front LF 5 is present through Luftwaffe Verbindungsoffizier zum Finnischen Luftwaffe 1941-42-44 with victories and losses and operations,

Junker

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Well, not seen any useful page so far.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Thanks, Jörn. If you run into anything else in this category - Lw. files in the Russian archives - please give us a head's up!

L.

Re: German docs in TSAMO
 

Hello

Many thanks to Andrei for pointing out the document relating to Barkhorn and Hartmann..

For those who wish to gain an entirely new and different view on Hartmanns claims from 1 Nov 44 to the end of 1944, then I suggest reading Case 382. This is further down the page from Andrei's. Among other earlier dates in Dec 1944, it has Luftflotte reports on claims made on 23rd, 24th and 25th December. Hartmann feature's on all three days. I do not think any claims on these dates have been listed for Hartmann anywhere, certainly not 5 on 25th December. Highly interesting.

Cheers

Russell