Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Thanks, you simply cannot gauge the tonal appearance of specific colours on black and white photos. There are many, many factors that can explain why in a specific photo a colour looks a lighter or darker tone than the same colour in another photo. It's clear that the segments that you are referring to are the lightest of the three colours on the upper surface... Was RLM 63 not the lightest in appearance of the 3 colours used in that scheme? So it would be more than reasonable to assume that the segments that appear the lightest are the ones that are coloured RLM 63 and not the two darker colours? Why would they choose to implement a completely different colour into the official scheme during this period?

As already stated the single triangular section of code overpaint could be RLM 02, I have seen colour surviving evidence of RLM 02 having been used to overpaint the codes on RLM70/71 aircraft so it's not outside the realms of possibility. It was quite a popular shade of paint for the units to have in stock as it's uses were numerous on LW aircraft.

"BTW, there are six combinations of three colors without any mirroring:
61/62/63, 62/63/61, 63/61/62, 61/63/62, 63/62/61, 62/61/63"

It's nice to know that you have come to this conclusion. Do you want to share what specific aircraft you have found this to be the case on? Can you provide evidence without us having to rely on your say so? I don't mean to be rude, but it's all very well and good for someone to make a statement like that as others have done in the past, but without providing evidence to your claim it doesn't really leave us a lot to work with...

Respectfully. :)

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

You also have to take into consideration that not all batches of the same paint were exactly the same. There is clear evidence that there were numerous possibilities of differing shades of RLM65. This can be clearly seen when codes and other markings were overpainted with a different pot of RLM 65 at the unit compared to the pot of RLM 65 that they originally sprayed the aircraft in at the factory. Some of the differences in shade are quite staggering considering that essentially they should be the same colour. Photos and surviving examples confirm this as being an irrefutable fact.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Luftfahrt International 3 page 70
and from Ullmann's Luftwaffe Colours Page 43 Hikoki

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Clint: your sarcasm was totally uncalled for. Promoz's comment is just pointing out that these combinations are possible, not that they were used. Or even promulgated.

I don't have the Ju86 booklet either, sadly, but do offer a photo of a Ju86 in Uhlmann's book, p47, where the caption includes "...probably pattern A1a..." I would be sorry to find that quoting the opinions of leading researchers in our field was somehow unacceptable, especially when they happen to agree with one another.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Oh dear the continually offended brigade has turned up. Graham if you cannot supply any evidence to refute my queries or findings please don't try and side step the situation by claiming that I offend you for calling previous research on the subject into question. My reply to Primoz I thought was reasonable. It was not intended to be sarcastic in anyway. A statement was made and I asked for evidence that might allow us to investigate it.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Primoz's comment was simply a statement of the inherent possibilities and does not require any kind of comment other than a simple recognition of fact.

If I may summarise: there is evidence for a number of different schemes - the two Do17 schemes are not the same as the two for Hs123. (One of them is.) Therefore it cannot be a matter of a dogmatic ruling from above "Thou shalt use this scheme A and this scheme B" on the use of two schemes only. That fact, and the terminology used on the copied Do17 colours, point back to the options and terminology of Merrick's charts. That so far no aircraft type has been found with more than two options in use does not render them totally invalid, just that more information needs to be discovered as to their use. Or, as seems likely in the case of the mirror schemes, otherwise.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Re the original subject: there is at least one photo of a Fi167 clearly in four uppersurface colours. I have seen different arguments for which. See Ullmann P97.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

I post again Primoz's comment copied verbatim:

"BTW, there are six combinations of three colors without any mirroring: 61/62/63, 62/63/61, 63/61/62, 61/63/62, 63/62/61, 62/61/63"

That to my understanding is a statement of fact. That infers that Primoz has successfully confirmed using his own research that there were 6 combinations of the scheme? Does it not?

Therefore I am quite well within my right to enquire if he can perhaps point out the evidence that has allowed him to make that statement.

"There is evidence for a number of different schemes"

Where?

"Thou shalt use this scheme A and this scheme B"

Why not? It's a standard RLM approved scheme for that aircraft type. Do you think the factories just made them up as they went along?

"That so far no aircraft type has been found with more than two options in use does not render them totally invalid."

I deal with evidence that is backed up photographically Graham. As I have already stated numerous times in this topic I am yet to find any evidence of more than two distinct pre-war schemes on the Hs123. That leads me to believe that there was no others for that type. If they did exist I have a large enough collection of photos for at least one to show up if there was 4 other mysterious schemes in use...

You mentioned privately:

"Luftwaffe He111P in distinctive scheme in Warplanes of the 3rd Reich p295"

I do not have this title on my bookshelf...

"It is in Merrick Classic Vol2 p321"

Do you mean 25-E33 of III./KG152?

"P297 shows it on a Romanian He111H-3."

Not in my copy it doesn't?

Allow me time to digest the other information, but I have the Hikoki edition of Ullmann's work and can find no reference to a Fi156 on page 97...

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Interesting discussion!

Here is another pic of that plane.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Nr-13-Foto-PK...item463dc44fa1

1 and 3 are RLM 62 green
2 is RLM 61 Brown
4 is RLM 63 Grey

but have a closer look at the C24 marking.

At the top you see RLM 61 but the base of the letters was overpainted with 2 different colours. Maybe RLM 02 and RLM 70/71/62???

Cheers,

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Thank you Simon for posting the other postcard of this Ju87A. :)

Attachment 12186

It confirms at least on the photo under discussion that my initial colour attributions were correct:

Attachment 12187

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Clint, considering that you wrote in an earlier post "I don't mean to be rude", I can only say that you're coming awfully bloody close. However right you think your opinions may be, cool it, please.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Lets be fair Nick? What gave Graham the right to be offended on someone else's behalf just because I am questioning a statement that has been made in this post? Quite a relevant question I might add. I thought that the tone has been quite reasonable considering how these kinds of debates usually spiral into being locked... It's only Graham throwing his toys out of the pram because piece by piece his claims are being shown to be what they truly are. I simply asked for evidence, but it's ok for everyone to make statements with nothing to back up their claims other than what has been previously written in a book or their own misplaced interpretations of black and white photos.

Why am I not allowed a voice?

You can surely understand the frustration when I offer perfectly reasonable and valid points as to why people have misinterpreted the photos yet they still wrongly continue to push their claims. What is the problem here? Are we not allowed to question evidence and debate previous interpretations just because it goes against what someone else thinks is right? It offends them that I have questioned either them or their heroes? What is this?

Nothing I have written in this topic has been intended to be rude or sarcastic in any way. It's a given that I'm no Shakespeare when it comes to adequately communicating my view points in written form and it may be that my literary skills have given the wrong impression, but I meant nothing by it and simply wish to debate this hotly contested issue in a way that is fair to all interested parties and that any claims are backed up with evidence... Which is sadly something that seems to be lacking...

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

(A) You are allowed a voice, a polite one. Just like everyone else here.
(B) Getting angrier and angrier with people rarely convinces them so why not try saying something like, "I'm sorry but I disagree because I don't believe the evidence supports your arguments"?
(C) It's as well to be wary of the gap between intention and execution.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Ok Nick, sorry, point taken!

Sorry everyone. I didn't mean to cause offence or upset anyone. It was not intended. I'll be more careful in the future to ensure that I do not upset anyone's feelings or call into question anyone's ideas, research or lack of in a way that might make them feel upset, wronged, or sad in any way.

I humbly ask that you accept my apology so that we may continue with this discussion as friends and fellow Luftwaffe history enthusiasts.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Hi all,
here another image of the same aircraft, from AirDOC 005.
HTH
Giampiero Piva

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Yes, same aircraft, same lighting conditions, same obvious difference between colour shades.

I am sticking to my statement, namely the colour shades on the nose (I assume RLM 63) and underneath the fuselage cross and beyond, as well as rudder area, are not the same ones. Question (this is why the whole thread has been started) what colour could that very light one be? I speculate it might be sand yellow/brown, not present in early RLM colour charts. Opinions?

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Dénes,
why do you believe that the lightest colour isn't RLM 63? Just check early planes like the Hs123 http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org...hs123-main.jpghttp://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org...es/hs123-3.jpg, Do17 http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/...04_634x407.jpg
The shade of light grey is always the same as at the Ju87. Always RLM 63.
The nose is RLM 62 green.

Cheers, Simon

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Friends,

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...6&d=1436857108

Yes, same aircraft, same lighting conditions (different angle), same obvious difference between colour shades.

If I may suggest:

The lightest shade seen on the front of the starboard undercarriage fairing, the area beneath the cross and freshly applied on the rudder/tail to overpaint the earlier national markings, is clearly RLM63 (Hellgrau)... Nose area, abundantly clear this is RLM 61 (Dunkelbraun) moving forward to RLM 62 (Grün).

Dear Dénes, I am overwhelmingly apologetic, but I fear that I would be inclined to disagree with your current conclusion regarding the colour attribution of the light segments of the camouflage pattern depicted on the photo very kindly posted by Giampiero Piva, (thank you).

Your attribution of a sand like shade on this pre-war splinter pattern confuses me somewhat. I have always been led to believe in the past that such colourings would be more beneficial in concealing the aircraft in more sandy, desert like regions of the planet, closer to the equator perhaps and not in the more leafy, green and dark brown terrains much farther North. I would even dare to add that the inclusion of such a shade could perhaps be seen as being rather negligent of the fundamental practices of adequate aircraft camouflaging techniques. Which I'm sure had been thoroughly investigated by this point?

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

I have just completed the task of sorting all Ju 87A images of the early 3 tone camouflage scheme into batches of similar pattern, and find myself in agreement with Clint Mitchell.

Here are few others of the formation that 52+C24 was flying in.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

BTW: Can somebody identify the W.Nr. on that plane?

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Simon, I believe (I see) the nose is covered by a fairly light colour (#1), left to it is a darker colour (#2), while even further left there is a thin slice of even darker colour (#3). That's why I assume #1 is light grey, #2 is dark green and #3 is dark brown (see below, at left).

Regarding the other photos you posted, I obviously agree that the lighter shade is light grey (RLM 63). However, I can see only three shades on the upper surface, not four.

Based on my experience, once should never compare different B/W photos when analysing colour shades, only shades visible on one particular photo, particularly if more than one aircraft is visible, just like the one attached. See photo at right (i omitted purposely the reference to the RLM 63 shade on the nose of the nearest aircraft, as the area is obscured by the rotating propeller) .

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Clint, you don't need to be overwhelmingly apologetic, we are here to share thoughts and ideas, even if they are conflicting. This works as long as one does not try to enforce his point of view on anothers. We don't have to necessarily agree, it's all fun, nothing bloody serious.

About the usage of the sand yellow/brown colour, it was extensively used in mid-1930s (even beyond) on various European military aircraft, like Czechoslovak, Swiss, Hungary (only recently proven), etc., nothing extraordinary here.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Sorry Dènes, but I'm at a point were I have no idea what you mean.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...5&d=1436734139

1 and 3 have the same shade, but as the nose is more round the light gets more reflection. so it's lighter, but if you check at the parts were is no light it's the same as at the rear section.
1 and 3 are RLM 62 green.
2 is RLM 61 dark Brown
and 4 is RLM 63 Light grey.

The base of this plane is RLM 61/62/63, just as I wrote before the markings C24 have another two colours. See what Clint has done. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...7&d=1436857259

Cheers,

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Chris, thank you.

These exquisite in flight photos of the same occasion offer us a wonderful opportunity to see the different colour arrangements of the A and B scheme in all their glory. Here we see and I hypothesise that on the pre-war camouflage pattern assigned to the Ju87A that the RLM 61 (Dunkelbraun) segments stayed in the same location across the A and B scheme yet the RLM63 (Hellgrau) and RLM 62 (Grün) segments switched colouring between the two camouflaging options available to the factories. In the first photo we see that the forward upper nose section of the middle aircraft is clearly coloured in the RLM 63 light grey colour. The other two however are wearing the other combination which swapped the colours and the RLM 62 green has been used to colour the same segment. I suggest that the photo posted by "Modeldad" showing the Ju87A with the collapsed undercarriage is camouflaged in the "B" splinter combination (RLM 63 on the forward upper nose) and the photo that started this discussion posted by Dénes is in fact painted in the "A" combination (RLM 62 on the forward upper nose) as seen in the Ullmann Ju87 pre-war camouflage diagram.

Dear Dénes, I agree wholeheartedly on your views of how these kinds of topics should be discussed. They are often conflicting else they wouldn't need to be discussed in the first place. I was having fun before and was enjoying the discussion, but as you saw my wording caused one of the more emotional participants to get quite upset and I was therefore reminded by the moderation team that I should be more understanding and careful of how I communicate. So I thought it best to be especially careful from now on as I didn't want to cause anymore emotional stress to those members less capable of managing their feelings.

I was only intending to enforce my ideas just as much as a scientist would if you were to suggest to them that the earth is flat. I was and am still 110% convinced as to my theories on this pre-war camouflage scheme. I am not a newcomer to this kind of investigation and would not be attempting to push my theories if I had not carried out an extremely thorough investigation into a great many photos. Not just a quick glance. I mean accurately mapping them onto the aircraft exactly as they appear in the photos and comparing them. Also taking into consideration the usual things that trip up many people when they look at black and white photos. This has lead to a great many discoveries that tend to contradict what has been previously assumed to be the case in the usual published sources.

Thank you for including your list of other airforces that have implemented a sandy colour into the camouflage patterns of their aircraft. I notice though that the most important to this discussion is currently missing and that is the Luftwaffe. Especially taking into consideration the period that we are currently discussing shown in the photos in this topic. During this time it is clear that there is no evidence that even slightly suggests that they would have been using a sandy coloured paint on the ground attack aircraft in Europe. Had the later "Sandgelb" LW paint even been developed at this time? This is not a period where they would have been scrambling around for better ways to conceal their aircraft and changing the official colouring schemes that their aircraft were supplied in as approved by the RLM.

This is why I am comfortable with my conclusions that I have made throughout this discussion, but am always happy and welcome being proven wrong with evidence to back up anything otherwise. :)

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Simon, not sure if the Ju87A would have had this many produced or whether that was a factor here, but I see 4 digits possibly 5329, but don't hold me to that :D as others are far more qualified to confirm these kinds of questions.

Interestingly that photo also shows to good effect the fresher application of RLM63 on the upper rudder/tail area to cover the older national markings. The older factory application of the same segment at the bottom of the rudder where the WNr. is visible (thus not painted over) is noticeably darker. You can even see the brush strokes... :)

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Simon and Clint, I managed to upload the two photos in my post on the top, please revisit it. I also encourage people not to go the way with thinking, like: there could be absolutely NO other colours on early Lw aircraft, but RLM 61/62/63, and try to squeeze into this schematic what you see (or not) on various photos. The early Lw camouflage colours topic is not fully explored yet.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Dear Dénes, respectfully, I'm going to have to agree to totally disagree at this stage. This early there was quite standard practices in place when aircraft were camouflaged. It's really not as complicated as people try to make it. :)

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

OK, Clint, let's leave it here, then.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Simon, here's a photo of a Ju87A in the 5000 range...

Attachment 12203
Source: expired eBay via Göran Larsson

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

If you check out Ullmann's dwg. on page 1, he also states the nose is RLM 63 light grey.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...6&d=1436559239

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Dénes, we are talking about two different types of the same camouflage pattern. On one the segment you are referring to is RLM 63 grey and on the other the same segment is RLM 62 green...

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Clint, would you care to show us some samples of this latter camouflage version?

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Dénes, please see the photo you posted that started this discussion... I have another one I will post later that I have been supplied with which shows the exact same pattern and colour distribution. :)

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Hi Dénes,

For comparison, below is the same aircraft seen in the photo in your first post which initially started this discussion:

Attachment 12214

Below are two photos of Ju87As wearing the same scheme and colour distribution as the photo above (the upper forward nose segment is RLM 62 (Grün):

Attachment 12210 Attachment 12211

Below are two more photos of Ju87As wearing the other combination of colours (the upper forward nose segment is RLM 63 (Hellgrau):

Attachment 12212 Attachment 12213

:)

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

The a/c in your last photo is not simply "wearing the other combination of colours"; the segment on the nose is RLM 63, the large segment aft of it is RLM 61 etc., while the starboard spat is RLM 61 (forward) and RLM 62 (aft). The forward part of the spat shouldn't be the same color as the large segment in the engine/cockpit area. The simplest explanation would be that it got a replacement spat from another a/c.

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

What colour do you suggest should be on the forward segment of the starboard undercarriage fairing then?

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Primoz, I've just checked and I have 30+ other photos that show the forward segment of the starboard undercarriage fairing as being RLM 61 when in the colour combination that has the forward upper nose segment as RLM 63. They cannot all have replacement starboard spats... Below is a small selection:

Attachment 12229 Attachment 12230 Attachment 12231 Attachment 12232

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Hi Folks!

another view of 52+C25
http://alternathistory.org.ua/files/...ny-1938-01.jpg

Clint, thank you for the W.Nr. help.
The pic http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...chmentid=12210 also shows the 52+C25

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Thanks Simon. :)

Re: Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A
 

Here's another showing the same colour distribution of Dénes' first photo:

Attachment 12233
Via Göran Larrson