Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Hello Bronc,

There are two links, in Czech, on this subject. One is a brief article which review the history of the all-female 586 IAP (fighter aviation regiment). It was co-written by Vitaly Gorbach, a very capable Russian archival researcher and historian of the air battle of Kursk, and Dmitry Khazanov, a well-known author of books and articles on Soviet aviation. The third author, Poluninova, is unknown to me, but may be a female unit veteran.

See link - http://en.valka.cz/topic/view/24834#209526

There is also a list of female pilots who made claims - http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/sssr-female.html

Regards,

Paul

Re: Off Topic, but Relevant
 

Got both of Lundstrom's books & enjoyed them both. I have to point out RE: the Japanese tendency to overclaim: I think it's similar to Italian fighter pilot issues: Their (Japan & Italy) aircraft are light & maneuverable & to a certain extent underarmed--and the pilots tend to practice an individualistic combat style--and allied fighters are often well armored/protected.

When they fire on, say a wildcat or a tomahawk, the first thing the allied pilot is going to do is DIVE at full throttle & then probably try to climb back into the fight. That diving, smoking plane is probably going to be the basis of several 'kill claims'. I think during Lundstrom's recounting of the Coral Sea Battles, he opined on at least one occasion a Wildcat pilot tangled with zeros in three separate dogfights on the same mission. No doubt he got claimed as shot down by all of them.

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Budanova did not "made it an ace", because she isn't mentioned in Mikhail Bykov's books.

Lidiya Litviak had 5+3 (+1 balloon) victories in 138 combat missions:

13.09.1942 Ju-88 west of Gumrak ('shared')
27.09.1942 Ju-88 Stalingrad
27.09.1942 Bf-109 Stalingrad ('shared')
11.02.1943 Bf-109 Vesyoly (Весёлый)
22.03.1943 Ju-88 Chaltyr-Sinyavka
05.05.1943 Bf-109 south of Stalino
31.05.1943 Balloon Kondakovka
19.07.1943 Bf-109 Pervomayskoye
31.07.1943 Bf-109 west of Petrovsky ('shared')

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Yes, but decisions had to be made besed on the info in hand. Germany had strong industrial base and at least in some circles in GB it was seen as very effective, even model state already at the beginning of the 20th century. Because it is usually more dangerous to underestimate than overestimate one's enemies, it isn't surprising that GB wanted to play safe. It was understandable to think that under dictatorship Germany could mobilize its resources more totally to military production than a democracy, even during the war.

Juha

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

As the question of this thread, it is very difficult if not impossible from summer of 40 to summer of 42 because there were so many big air battles, overclaiming was so common and almost total loss of LW's documents. It mght be possible to try to form oppinion on the claim patterns of some aces by researching smaller combats where little or no overclaiming happened or where the ace in question was the only claimant. And then try to draw some conclusions based on those results. But even this kind of research is rather iffy and as are said, the claim accuracy of certain pilots isn't so important, much more important is the effectiveness of unit(s) and operations. If there were unlimited resources the true achievements of the aces would have some curiosity value and IMHO it would be nice to know the true results because it seems that in the end it was up to individuals how accurate their claims were and it would serve some kind of justice if those accurate claimers could get the appreciation they deserved.

Juha

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Germany had strong industrial base

If you read Adam Tooze's book "The Wages of Destruction" he makes a case that Germany's industrial base was actually quite weak in certain respects. It had some very good, modern firms but not enough of them. That was why throughout the war the German army was mostly dependent on horse-drawn supply vehicles for example.

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

But the industrial bases of all European countries had at least some weaknesses after the Great Depression. And IMHO no European country had capazity to motorize c. 220 divisions in mid 1941 (the size of the German Army at that time), probably even USA, with its large automobile industry, would have big difficulties to achieve that.

Juha

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Soviet vs. German claims:

The Soviet top naval ace Boris Safonov was credited with 20 individual "kills" + 6 shared in WW2. However it seems that his real tally was 7-8 individual air victories. The overclaim ratio of about 3:1 in his case does not seem to be more or less than the "average" in WW2 in my opinion. I´m not at all sure if we can say that LW / Western combat records are "much more" accurate than Soviet combat records in all cases or even as a general rule.

I have some doubts on big German claims at the Eastern Front - without doubt the Soviet losses were heavy but were they as heavy as Germans claimed? Despite the numbers claimed by Hartmann & Co. the air activity of Soviet Air Force was not considerably diminished but continued to increase. Soviets had it of course easier to replace their losses than Germans but German overclaims may also have given a false image of the efficiency of LW fighter units and helplessness of Soviets in air.

Luftwaffe was well able to overclaim as much as their Soviet counterparts have been so often accused despite the "strict" confirmation standards. I would be skeptical on their air victory records specially during the later stages of war. As an example the air combat records of III/JG 5 against Soviets in far north during the summer of 1944 based on solid research (Valtonen - Rautio):
- on 17.6.1944 12 Soviet planes destroyed (actual losses 0)
- on 4.7.1944 26 Soviet planes destroyed (actual losses 2)
- on 17.7.1944 37 Soviet planes destroyed (actual losses 5)
- on 17.8.1944 40 Soviet planes destroyed (actual losses 12)
- on 23.8.1944 29 Soviet planes destroyed (actual losses 2)

The German claims were "impossibly high" also in the view of strength of Soviet air units allocated to the operational area of III/JG 5. If they would have been true, III/JG 5 would have destroyed over 40 % of the combat strength of VVS SF (Soviet Northern Fleet aviation) and that would practically stopped or diminished in great extent the Soviet air activity at the northern flank of German Eastern Front. The losses would have been so high that even with Soviet resources they could not have been replaced easily. However as Germans themselves noted their "big victories" did not reflect in the Soviet air activity and thus the usual explanation of "infinite" Soviet resources was provided to make claims "possible/legitimate".

The III/JG 5 claims during the summer of 1944 were quite the same scale as the ill-fated Soviet claims during the Winter War - the exaggerated claims against Finnish Air Force were "legitimazed" with the assumption that Finns imported planes (and pilots) from abroad to replace their losses more than 100 % (this indeed happened but nothing near of the scale of Soviet assumptions).

Details: Valtonen, Hannu 1996: Luftwaffen pohjoinen sivusta - Saksan ilmavoimat Suomessa ja Pohjois-Norjassa 1941-1944. Luftwaffe´s Northern Flank - German Air Force in Finland and Northern Norway 1941-1944, p. 353-355 - Pajari, Risto 1971: Talvisota ilmassa - Winter War in Air)

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Hello GC
Have you look the tread "German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others..." (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1262 , especially the messages of HGabor?
Or the thread - Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses (high.net/showthread.php?t=24947) ? Rob Romero’s message on 20th April 2011 20:24 gives a overview how much the claim accuracy varied from an unit to an unit.
If You have the Valtonen’s book, near the end of it is Valtonen’s opinion on the claim accuracy of the VVS in the Southern part of the Eastern Front.

Juha

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

I noticed that Soviet pilots around Leningrad in the summer of 1943 were seeing Fw 190s in just about all of their dogfights. The only Fw 190 staffel in the area was 4.(Jabo)/JG 54 and the other unit was the Bf 109 equipped IV/JG 54. Look at the following losses and claims for 03 Sep 1943 which was some time after 16:57 (B).

Oblt. Alfred Teumer 10./JG 54 Bf 109 G-6 10% damage and WIA (NW of Gatschina) landed.
Uffz. Gottfried Schuster 10./JG 54 Bf 109 G-6 100% damage and KIA At "Pokrowskaja" (Pokrovskoe, 35 km NW of Tosno)
Uffz. Karl-Heinz Leiter 10./JG 54 Bf 109 G-6 100% damage and KIA 1 km NE of Korpikovo

VVS claims:
Kapt. Petr Yakovlevich Likholetov (La-5 159 IAP) Fw 190 (16) Pokrovskoe
Kapt. Viktor Grigor'evich Obiralov (Yak-7 14 GIAP) Fw 190 (16) Slutsk
Kapt Ivan Grigor'evich Pashchenko (La-5 159 IAP) Fw 190 (2) Shushary

I can only see one that matches the Germans and that is Schuster and Likholetov at Pokrovskoe. These are all ace pilots and I have no other pilots that might have scored from 14 GIAP and 159 IAP for that day and time. Thus it is hard to determine who engaged Teumer but it seems their four Bf 109 found superior numbers of Soviet fighters in that battle.

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

The renowned Finnish airwar historian Hannu Valtonen seems to suggest that only about 1:15 or 1:16 of Soviet claims during WW2 could be verified by enemy loss records! However he points out that there were differencies between units - the VVS KF (Northen Fleet Aviation) being more accurate than 7th Air Army at the northern flank of Soviet Western Front - for example Boris Safonov´s possible overclaim ratio being only the "average WW2 standard" of about 3:1.

I guess that the "best" Soviet units (in terms of claim accuracy) reached a level of claim accuracy comparable to those of other air forces. For example the 49 IAP was fairly accurate in Winter War and probably the most succesfull Soviet fighter unit in that war although other units were credited with more "kills". When it comes to overclaiming, Soviets were at least not much worse/overoptimistic than Japanese.

It would be interesting to know more about the "real heroes" who did not get rewarded for their exploits because they were "too accurate" with claiming and did let others (more optimistic claimers) to take the laurels of more glory with less justification. HGabor suggests quite convincingly that of German top aces Helmut Lipfert was much more precise with his combat reports than Hartmann and may actually have shot down more planes down.

The actual top Allied ace of WW2 against Luftwaffe has probably been someone else than Ivan Kodzehub who will remain as the top man against Luftwaffe in official records. I guess that there are other Soviet candidates who may have a score comparable to those of Jonhnie Johson, Gabby Gabreski or George Beurling.

With George Beurling I´m quite skeptical with his score but this stems partly from his book which I did not like much. I did find "Malta Spitfire" as a piece of propaganda and even as such not that well written. I have read better pilot memoirs than that one. Probably Beurling was much better as a fighter pilot as he was as a writer. Maybe if he had lived longer, he could also have written a better account or improved edition of his book with the help of some skillfull editor (focusing more in other things than Allied propaganda needs which must have been focus in original 1943 edition!).

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Hello Nokose, IIRC 159 IAP was the most dangerous opponent of the FiAF 109G pilots during the Soviet Summer 1944 Offensive. I have always wondered why it was not given the Guard status. Have you any opinion on that?

Juha

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

You might try to form your own opinion on Beurling's claims by reading Shores' et al Malta: The Spitfire Year. But it is sometimes difficult to form a firm opinion, the Shores' book didn't make me any surer on Bär's claim accuracy, but Bär seems to be a difficult case in this issue.

Juha

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Juha, No I have no idea why they didn't become a GIAP. They had pilots that became HSU and aces. They received P-40 with good radios when other units didn't have any radio. Maybe a Russian member with more knowledge of the unit and what it took can answer. I have just begun looking at how the VVS touched JG 54 and the units attached to them in 1942 and 1943 (1941 and 1944 are still not areas that I do more then take notes on).

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Hello Juha,

I sympathise with your view, the point that I would emphasise is that during the war, democracies can and should mobilise their populations more effectively than dictatorships, by achieving the active consent of the voters. The main problem for Britain was precisely this, that the population was often skeptical about the chances of victory and sometimes distrusted the motives of the government. The fact that Churchill lost the general election immediately after the war shows that political unity was very difficult to maintain.

Nick correctly points out that Germany's industry suffered from severe weaknesses. A few of these were common knowledge, including its dependence on raw material imports. Had Britain mobilised her own resources and those of the Empire with anything like the intensity that Speer later achieved in Germany, Britain's armed forces would have had a decisive material superiority over not only Germany, but Italy too.

On the subject of the optimal subject for research, I would strongly argue in favour of a new general history of the Second World War, based on the archival material which has become available worldwide. It is very important that it becomes commonly understood just how the Western democracies won the war and the mistakes that they made in the process. To put it succinctly, this is of the greatest importance for current policy.

Regards,

Paul

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Hello GuerraCivil,

Thank you for summarising Valtonen's thoughts. This is consistent with recent research on air operations over Nomonhan (Khalkhin Gol) in 1939, where Japanese and Soviet overclaiming was very substantial. This may have been partly a product of the employment of less experienced units in these air battles. In the case that you cite, the war in the Arctic, the 7th Air Army was one of the least important Soviet commands and did not receive much attention from the VVS leadership. It is important to note, nevertheless, that the Northern front as a whole was a succesful economy of effort undertaking for the Axis, with Soviet losses being far higher than those of Germany and Finland.

Regards,

Paul

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Controversial - one could also say that Germans failed very decisively at the Northern front as they were unable to achieve strategic key targets like Murmans and cutting the sea traffic between USSR and its Western allies. Also the cutting the railroad of Muurmanni (connecting Murmansk to central Russia) failed and Valtonen has shown that German air attacks were rather teethless. Germans overestimated grossly the results of their efforts. They destroyed much less aircraft, less tonnage, less equipment and less manpower of enemy than they claimed. Enemy seemed to replace heavy losses at surprising speed from "infinite" resources (when enemy losses actually were not that heavy as Germans thought).

In far north there was not even such initial great success as in the south - Soviet planes were not destroyed on the ground or hunted down in air combat at massive scale. LW was surprisingly weak - but its resources in north were limited and it was a secondary front. For example the JG 5 was the last unit to receive any new Bf 109 type or FW 190. They did fly with "Emil" longer than any other LW unit.

Germany lost the war even at the northern flank of its Eastern front because German achivements were too modest - far less than was needed to win the war. Germans overestimated their chances and underestimated the enemy.

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Hello GuerraCivil,

The reason that there is dispute on this point is because German successes are measured against their stated intentions, rather than the resources available to them. The same is true, in a different way, of much of the literature about the war in the West. A careful analysis of capabilities would suggest that the Germans often assigned themselves objectives which were unattainable, while conversely the Western Allies set low targets for themselves.

Precisely because the Arctic was a secondary theatre, as you write in your second paragraph, the Axis military effort should be considered very successful, in relation to what was possible. The Germans did underestimate the enemy, but this did not have the disastrous consequences that it had elsewhere on the Eastern front. This was partly because the climactic and terrain conditions did not allow for large-scale Soviet offensives, but the effectiveness of the Axis defensive measures in the Arctic is noteworthy. The Soviet armed forces expended large numbers of men and equipment in the theatre, especially in 1943 and 1944, for no significant military gains.

Regards,

Paul

Re: The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?
 

Hello,

It is true that Soviet aircraft lacks good gunsights to aim at an another aircraft during WWII.

Edward L. Hsiao