Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Most, if not all of the USAF Historical Studies can be downloaded from their website. The link is http://www.afhra.af.mil/studies/numb...calstudies.asp

Ruy posted a sticky thread in the Allied forum for the studies, but that link no longer works.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

But it isn't. ANT-42 prototype's service ceiling was 11,250 m. The figure I gave was that of the AM-35A powered Pe-8.

Some sources in English for Pe-8 data:
Yefim Gordon’s Soviet Air Power in World War 2 (2008),
Yefim GORDON's and Dmitri KHAZANOV's Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War. Volume Two (1999) and
Mikhail MASLOV's Petlyakov’s Long Range bomber in Model Aircraft Monthly Vol 7 Issue 9 September 2008

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Also in an old Air International article, (Aug 1980) and Lennart Andersson's Soviet Aircraft and Aviation 1917 - 1941 (1994).

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hello Frank,

Thank you! You've got a PM from me in your inbox.

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hello Juha,

Thank you, I did not know of the Maslov article. The problem with these sources is that only Maslov has written about the Pe-8 specifically, as far as I am aware. I have been and continue to be consistently sceptical on this topic, because there have been a lot of exaggerated claims made about the performance of Soviet equipment over the years. For British and American types, it is much more difficult to make such claims, because access to original documents is unhindered in the West.

For the time being, I accept Alex K's figures, unless Gabor or another member has further data to add on the subject.

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Sorry guys, I didn't follow the discussion, but eg. on April 07/08, 1944 the 45 AD DD Pe-8s bombed their targets from the altitude of 4200-6400 m between 21:49-22:05. I assume it was a 'regular' op. for them at that time.

Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

751 AP DD and 750 AP DD (on DB-3F) bombed Berlin on the night of 9/10 September 1942 with a height of about 6500м.
AA downed 1 aircraft from 751 AP DD, who fell in Lithuania. The Navigator and gunner-radio operator were killed. The pilot and gunner taken prisoner until the end of the war.

In 751 AP DD there is loss 13/14.09.1942 (1 DB-3F), but I'm not sure that it is the RAID on Berlin.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Yep, the 751 AP DD lost IL-4 №8610 with the Maj. Aleksandr Lomov crew in Lithuania in a dogfight with a German NJG. (752 AP DD lost 3 other IL-4s: №6501, №7108, №7113, while 749 AP DD lost two, 3 GvAP DD lost one more IL-4. 836 AP DD lost two IL-4s in accident, etc...)

Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Gabor,
If I'm not mistaken, 752 AP DD-bombed military targets Budapest and Königsberg on the night of 9/10 September 1942. One was shot down over Budapest...
Kirill

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Correct, beside Berlin, bombs fell on Budapest this night too. I am not aware of a plane crash in Budapest, but one IL-4 crashed at Szob, Budapest-N, ~60 km. Need to check the docs. Thanks,
Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

I have the data about:
- Il-4 (Baryshev (back) -Travin (captured, released) - Andrievsky (captured, died)) - on the departure from target (Budapest). The pilot landed in the suburbs of Budapest next to the railway.
- One aircraft crashed on his territory - the death of the gunner-radio operator Bushkov.
- The third was hit over the target (not known where) - pilot jumped with a parachute (Lukienko) and was taken prisoner (Bol'howo). Navigator (Chicherin) captured Bolhow too. And gunner-r.o. Zemskov died.
- Another plane Dushkin-Suharev-Fatin was shot down, flying on one engine, made a forced landing in enemy territory (the entire crew returned to the regiment)
Kirill

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Great, thanks. I will go through the records to clarify all possible details.
Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

During the 6./7. Feb 1944 bombing raid on Helsinki to which Pe-8s of the 45th Air Division participated, the 15 Pe-8s bombed at altitudes varied between 5,250 and 7,200 m. On average 3,731 kg bombs per plane, the distance from their base SE of Moscow to Helsinki was some 900 – 950 km.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Juha,

Thank you, the overall data now tends to support the contention that the Pe-8 had a higher operational ceiling that British types. I have to caveat that by saying that by 1944, they were equipped with a different engine, the M-82 (the FN version?) and quite possibly using a higher grade of aviation gasoline. I would note that with the exception of the bombload, the figures you have provided for the Helsinki raid are significantly lower than the ones you listed in your original post on this subject.

Gabor and Kirill, you two seem to have quite a lot of interesting information on Soviet long-range raids, which has not been brought to public attention. May I suggest you consider publishing it? I am sure that "The Aviation Historian" or a similar publication would such a piece considerable prominence :)

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Most probably M-82 engined, but so what, it was slower and had lower service ceiling but had longer max range, 5,800 km and it could carry the 5,000 kg bomb, two of which were dropped here on 6./7. Feb 1944. Maximum speeds was 420 km/h. Service ceiling was 8,000 m.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

By early 1944 the M-82 likely gave far more consistent performance than the AM-35A in 1942. Even so, you are again quoting figures which probably come from trials flights and are not representative of operational conditions. Note that none of the operational information presented above comes close to these maximum figures, with the exception of bomb load.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hi,

On night of 7 Feb 1944 Helsinki was bombed with FAB-5000 bombs by 45 AD DD which
targeted a cable plant ( the future Nokia ? ) and marshalling yards , raid led by future HSU
Ishenko. On return leg the group entered severe IMC conditions combined with icing
which only through a miracle didn't cause mishaps . As far as I am concerned I call this
long raid a high performance .

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

According to the Russian books/articles AM-35A was the most reliable engine used to power Pe-8, there was nothing wrong on that engine, it was simply dropped out of production because Stalin decided that the SU needed as many Il-2s as was possible to produce and so AM-35A was dropped out to allow production of more AM-38s. Check the Gordon*s books, he normally gives realistic figures, e.g. for La-5FN he clearly stated that the production a/c could not achieve the max speed of the pattern a/c (648 km/h, which is still seen in some Western publications) because some of the improvements incorporated on the pattern a/c were not utilized in the production a/c and the quality of the pattern a/c could not be achieved in series production and so the max speed of the early La-5FNs was appr. 610 km/h and the late (after some mods and better quality control) 620 - 630 km/h (the production a/c figures without checking from the books). Because bombers hardly ever bombed from their service ceiling altitude, 7,200 m was a good altitude to bomb for a plane with 8,000m service ceiling.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

www.armpress.info/govoryat_frontoviki_30.html
Paul is better to read the memoirs of the participant.
Vasily Vasilyevich highly respected and adequate veteran.
I know about the raids on Berlin and Budapest on 9/10. 09. 1942, because in 2015 we dig up one of those planes near Gzhatsk (of 749 AP DD).
Kirill

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Gabor

Do you by chance know what were the targets in Budapest on the night
of 9/10 Sept 1942 , the scores and what sighting device the TB-7 used
in 1942 ?

Alex K

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

For serial aircraft averaged data:
The optimum altitude of the flight of PE-8 with AM-35A is listed as 6300-6400 m (the power of the engine at 1,200). Load 2000 (normal)/4000 (max), the flight range of 3,600 km (probably at normal load and the optimum height).
The PE-8 with M-82 - the optimal altitude of 5600 meters (the power of the engine ~1300), load 2000 (normal)/5000 (max), the range of 5800 km.
The DB-3F with M-88 - optimal altitude 6600 m (engine power at an altitude of 1000). Weight 1000 (normal)/2500 (max), range 3300 km.
The Il-4 with M-88B - optimal altitude 6200-6300 m (engine power at an altitude of 1000). Weight 1000 (normal)/2500 (max), range 3300/3800 km.

According to the memoirs of pilots, the altitude was close to optimal. Above it was necessary to include the second speed supercharger (for Il-4) that increased the fuel consumption and engine load.
AM-35A was the high-altitude motor, but it was heavy and had a high fuel consumption. Better altitude characteristics were AM-37 (for Er-2) , but he was never brought to mass production.

regards,
Kirill

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Kirill,

Thank you very much, it looks like your data is the sort of reasonable operational average we have been looking for! In terms of comparative performance, I think it's the DB-3F that emerges as quite a good aircraft, the altitude performance looks very good when set against its contemporaries.

The flaws of the AM-35A do appear to have been substantial, even though the average figures that you give for the Pe-8 are still very respectable. The Yer-2 could have been a very good aircraft, Roberto Bartini certainly made a substantial effort to make it so. A pity that like with so many of his ideas, the implementation by industry lagged far behind.

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hi guys

Most interesting but what about my original question regarding the two possible Russian/German spies including 'Sgt Alexis Stadnik' ?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

And essentially the same what I gave in my message#31

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hello Brian
OT but did you notice or have you already earlier been aware of the 13 Sept 43 27th FG Blue-on-Blue case which is in the link udf 00 gave in the A-36 Apache losses over Sicily -thread #11? See http://raf-112-squadron.org/27thfghonor_roll43-44.html 13 Sep 43 Wenger, Donald R

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Brian, Good Day.
For Russian spies have a very poor legend. However for German spies (Ukrainian origin) the legend is also very leaky.
More like ordinary soldiers from captivity or adventurers who wanted to give more importance and heroism itself, and they wanted to show that in captivity they were not so long, so they're definitely not spies.
Note that about the Soviet air force raids on Berlin in 1942 it became known on 13 September 1942 (there was a lot of press and radio information from the allies on that day). Prior to that, Germany tried to keep the raids secret.

Best regards,
Kirill

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

On the same context worth to mention that Berlin was also raided in 1941 at least two times by Soviet Navy from a North Eastern base along with Bucharest and Budapest. Relevant to mention that Bucharest was raided in October by a sea based bomber which flew almost 18 hours from Sevastopol to Bucharest and back ending up in IMC condition near Azov sea due to a navigation error. As into the bombed targets most of them were not even scratched despite great PR from Moscow.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

This information is less than half the truth. Berlin was attacked by the Soviet Navy aircraft eight times in August and September 1941 (VVS KBF DB-3T).
Next Berlin was four times attacked by long-range aviation aircraft (VVS DBA - DB-3A, DB-3F). All crews had to take off from one Estonian island, but flew out with two different airfileds, sometimes during one night (three times) and sometimes separately (5 times navy, 1 time - land VVS DBA). Naval aviation and land DBA were made from the Estonian island together 9 attacks on Berlin in 1941.

Next, added to this is yet another raid made from the vicinity of Leningrad by the crews of long range TB-7 and Jer-2.

Together Berlin was attacked 10 times in August and September 1941.

Probably these 10 Soviet air raids resulted in only 4 actually reaching over Berlin and dropping bombs.

regards
mw

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

My post reffered to Soviet Navy only also I did not enter into details
as into how many eventhough was aware of.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Frankly speaking be precise in what you write, or not write anything and then you will do less damage! The Error is an error, and less then half the true is still less then half the true.

These entries (or one) are very harmful, speaking very euphemistically!

Regards,
mw

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

The fact that I'm doing linguistic errors in fact. I can admit it.

The fact that you playing the terror of political correctness of it is a serious matter!

My entry was not a personal attack against someone who does not use its full name. I asked, quietly attention to the substantive errors. It's a fact, without discussion.

I am appearing openly under my real name, in turn, are you hiding under the "nick". What it would be personal attacks? In view of some "abebele123 or researcher111"? Nonsense! No one knows by name male / female named "ablebele 123 or researcher111"?

For your own words you should personally respond and not react hysterically displacement to making mistakes. It is a reprehensible conduct, which requires correction. It has been dane by me.

It does not matter who makes mistakes. It matters that are often made, and you have committed them, what to repress under the protection of personal attack! It already is insolence!


I do spelling errors, and this fact, and you are doing serious factual errors, it is a fact and not personal attacks.

I hope, that despite my faults language the text is understandable for you in terms of content?

reagrds
mw (full name is above, no nick as abrakabara234)

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

We have talked on the Soviet attacks on Berlin in Aug 1941 earlier and then I gave some info on the actual damages inflicted by the Soviet bombers, see http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27188

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

OK, guys, cool the rhetoric and personal attacks. Stick to the thread subject or I will close the thread.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Brian ,

For some reason u'r box reached max ,please
enable it again

Thanks
AK

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

OK, AK

Room made!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

John

As into your comment I am compliant with your suggestion, I consider
however totally inappropriate for this member when his historical resources
exhaust to resort to insultations and get personal and yet continue to do so
with no actions directed at him at all. Incidently if you would go through
search engines you would note similarities of his actions elsewhere such a
WWII Romanian and Russian forum eventually ending up being put on ignore
list by other members , something I did already in the past .

Hope my comments will receive proper attention .

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Sometimes it is better not write about things about which there is no idea and knowledge!

Air attack on Berlin bombers TB-7 and Yer-2 had done on the night of the 10th and 11th August 1941. One day later then written by researcher 111!

I am the author of two articles on the Soviet air raids on Berlin during August and September 1941. I have knowledge beyond the knowledge average reader wikipiedii and do not make such stupid mistakes substantive as in the example above done again by reseracher111.

See:
M. Wawrzyński "Czerwone gwiazdy nad Berlinem/ Red Star over Berlin" in: Lotnictwo Wojskowe No. 4/2002, p. 49-54.

M. Wawrzyński "Letajuszczije Kreposti nad Berlinem/Flying Fortress over Berlin", in: Lotnictwo Wojskowe No 5/2002, p. 30-35.


M. Wawrzyński, Operacja B. Ataki sowieckie na Berlin w sierpniu i wrześniu 1941 roku, cz. 1 /B Operation. Soviet attacks on Berlin in August and September 1941 part. 1, in: Militaria XX wieku. Wydanie specjalne, No. 6 (22) / 2011, pp. 12-19.

M. Wawrzyński, Operacja B. Ataki sowieckie na Berlin w sierpniu i wrześniu 1941 roku, cz. 2./B Operation. Soviet attacks on Berlin in August and September 1941 part. 2, in: Militaria XX wieku. Wydanie Specjalne No. 3 (37)/ 2014 p. 36-47.

This is much improved and corrected version of article from LW nr 4/2002.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hi John

The Polish member ignoring u'r last post yet going on with his insultations path ( check above ) . This is no longer connected to history but has turned into a personal vendetta of someone with serious problems and frankly it should be corrected. Like in the past I won't put up with this guy nor waste time to respond his nonsense.

I hope you can take an take action against this member rather closing the thread .

BR
Alex K

PS : Note, one WWII Russian Avia Forum already ejected this guy who broke records insulting the other .

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hello,

I would like to know who shot down Oblt. Alois Lechner at 18/19 August 1942 over Schaustenhof. Two DB-3 of 1. MTAP who bombed Königsberg?

#Post 48 Which German night fighters to Maj. Aleksander Lomov have shot?

Regards,
Sven