Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Hmm.
Is it also impossible to determine the number of ships sunk by Baumbach?

Michael

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Larry and Co. - this self-publishing issue is a really interesting discussion in itself but a bit off-topic re Baumbach. If you're happy, I'll relocate the relevant parts to a new thread under "Books."

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Nick -

See my PM to you.

L.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

...I'm especially intrested in wether Werner Baumbach sunk more ships than US patrol bomber hero Arthur Elder (19).

Michael

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Circling back around to this, if the photos attached to #2 are not Werner Baumbach's aircraft, where are they???

Bronc

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Good morning,

I would be interested in a rudder photo of Baumbach's Ju 88, too.
Also in a list of the ships sunk by him.

Michael

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Häberlen, in "Davongekommen, als Kampfflieger über allen Fronten", p. 100 - 105 describes two missions flown by his unit (KG 51) with Baumbach, who had been seconded to Häberlen's outfit for the occasion, against the Soviet fleet in the Black Sea harbor of Tuapse on March 22. and 23., 1942. There are several photos showing Baumbach, or the strike pattern of his load of bombs in the harbor. None, unfortunately, of the plane he piloted.
Greetings, Richard

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

are we sure that Baumbach recorded his successes on his rudder at all ?

Michael

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Is anyone familiar with this book?


http://www.ebay.de/itm/Baumbach-Zu-S...0AAOSwLF1X-iMK




Usual disclaimer,
Ed

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Not me.
I wonder if he provides a table of his successes in his own book. (Rudel didn't.)

Michael

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Circling back to this, I just located this photo. That's not Werner Baumbach is it. (Not at all.) Can anyone ID this man, and does it help or add to the mystery?

Bronc

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Lt. Johannes Geismann (A-4 / 141016 3Z+DH 1./KG 77)

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Ju-88/KG...y-1942-01.html

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

has there ever been made a ranking of ship destroyer pilots by tonnage sunk ?
(Like that of the submarine commanders.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...oat_commanders

Michael

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

It is known much tonnage was sunk by Fw 200 Condors.
Has it ever been tried to create a breakdown of the victorious pilots ?

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

I have seen a number of photos of silhouettes of destroyed ships painted on the tails of large aircraft and on one fighter aircraft.

The latter was unusual in that some ships were half silhouette and half outline. The BRT sunk was painted on.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

You could probably work it out from my list of ships sunk by KG 40 in my book on the Condor

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Good morning Chris,

found it at the German Amazon, very appealing but currently unavailable:
https://www.amazon.de/Focke-Wulf-Fw2...s%2C507&sr=8-1
I'll keep my eyes open for it !

Have a good weekend, sincerely,

Michael

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

If there was a list with his missions (Feindflüge), that could also help.
Peter

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Was it straightforward to discern if you had sunk a ship by your bombs ?
I mean the sinking of a ship takes longer than the fall of a shot-down aircraft, presumably longer than you circle with your bomber above it before disengaging...

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Hello there Gentlemen,

how do you like this one?: Bomber Aces by tonnage sunk

1. Werner Baumbach – 300,000+ tons sunk
2. Joachim Helbig – 182,000+ tons sunk
3. Martin Harlinghausen – 127,000+ tons sunk (as an observer)
4. (Matthias Schwegler – 116,000 tons sunk or damaged)
5. Jurgen Steputat – 100,000+ tons sunk
6. (Heinz Jente - ~100,000 tons sunk or damaged)
7. (Johannes Geismann - ~98,000 tons sunk or damaged)
8. Robert Kowalewski – 95,528 tons sunk
9. (Lambert Konschegg von Pramburg - ~70,000 tons sunk or damaged)
10. Karl-Heinz Greve – 69,000 tons sunk
11. Edmund Daser – 68,000 tons sunk (Fw 200 Condor)
12. Hajo Herrmann – 65,000+ tons sunk
13. Rudolf Mayr – 65,000 tons sunk (Fw 200 Condor)
14. (Georg Fanderl - ~65,000 tons sunk or damaged)
15. Rudolf Mons – 63,000 tons sunk (+32,000 tons damaged) (Fw 200 Condor)
16. Hans Buchholz – 60,800 tons sunk (+48,000 tons damaged) (Fw 200 Condor)
17. Heinrich Schlosser – 55,000 tons sunk (Fw 200 Condor)

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

And where does Hubertus Hitschhold fit into this list?

Credited with sinking or damaging 186,000 GRT of shipping.(See Career Summaries)

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Good afternoon Andy,

the list above is about Kampfflieger, whereas Hubertus Hitschhold was a Stukaflieger. The same source includes a list about the most successful of these by tonnage sunk:

1. Siegfried Goebel – 50,000 tons sunk
2. Theodor Nordmann – 43,000 tons sunk or damaged
3. August Hachtel – 30,000+ tons sunk
4. Hans-Ulrich Rudel - ~25,000 tons sunk
5. Franz Kieslich – 21,500+ tons sunk
6. Herbert Dawedeit – 17,200 tons sunk
7. Hans Schalanda - ~17,000 tons sunk or damaged
8. Martin Moebus – 14,000+ tons sunk

The only tonnage figure that I know to be associated with Hitschhold is the 164,000 BRT sunk/damaged by his Gruppe (I./St.G2) during the Western campaign. He kept on fighting succesfully after that, so the score you mentioned might be either a personal score or a unit score, I don't know.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

HITSCHHOLD, Hubertus. (DOB: 07.07.12 in Kurwien/Ostpruessen) [Version#2: (DOB: 07.07.12 in
Oberforsterei Kurvien, Johannisburg).] (RE). 01.04.30 entered the Heer, serving in the Kavallerie.
15.04.30 began pilot training at DVS Schleissheim (to 31.03.31). 15.04.31 began fighter training in
Lipezk/Russia with Flugzentrum Lipetsk (to 15.09.31). 01.10.31 trf to Reiterrgt. 2 as a cadet in
Osterode/E Prussia. 01.08.32 attended Infanterieschule Dresden (to 15.06.33). 27.10.32 received the
interim Lw. pilot license B. 01.02.34 with Reiteregt. 2 in Allenstein and Angerburg (to 31.12.34).
01.03.34 promo to Lt. 01.01.35 trf from the Heer to the Luftwaffe in the rank of Lt. and assigned to
JFS Schleissheim for pilot training. 01.09(08?).35 (01.10.35?) promo to Oblt. 01.04.36 trf to I./St.G.
162 (Schwerin) as a pilot. 01.09.36 trf to II./St.G. 162 (Lübeck) as a pilot. 01.10.36 appt Staka (unit
unspecified) in Geschwader Immelmann ( in Lübeck). 11.09.36 received the permanent Lw. pilot
license. 01.03.37 trf to III./St.G. 162 as a Staka (Anklam). 01.04.37 appt Staka in Geschwader
Immelmann (at Anklam). 01.10.37 trf to I./St.G. 163 as a Staka (Breslau-Strachwitz). 01.01.39
promo to Hptm. 01.05.39 appt Staka of 1./St.G. 2 (Breslau) (to 30.09.39). 15.05.39 attended Höhere
Luftwaffenschule in Gatow (to 15.07.39). 06.10.39 awarded the EK II. 16(01?).10.39 appt Kdr.
I./St.G. 2 (to 15.10.41). 15.05.40 awarded the EK I. 01.07.40 promo to Maj. 21.07.40 Hptm.,
awarded Ritterkreuz, Kdr. I./St.G. 2. 06.04.41 Hptm., Kdr. I./St.G. 2 fate unstated - Ju 87 (T6+AB)
during attacks on Rupel and Istibei. 22.05.41 sank the destroyer Greyhound. 23.05.41 Hptm., Kdr.
I./St.G. 2 unhurt? - Ju 87 B damaged by enemy fire vic Wolkowysk, and sank the destroyers Kelly and
Kashmir. 22.06.41 WIA - shot down by AA behind enemy lines but rescued. 15.07.41 promo to
Maj. 16.10.41 appt Kdr. Stukaschule 1, Wertheim (to 16.06.42). 31.12.41 awarded the Eichenlaub to
the Ritterkreuz. 18.06.42 appt Kommodore Schl.G. 1 (to 25.06.43). 01.02.43 promo to Obstlt.
10.06.43 ordered to Luftflotte 2 in the Mediterranean. 26.06.43 appt Fliegerführer Sardinien (to
26.06.43). 26.06.43 appt Fliegerführer 2 (Luftflotte 2) (to 11.11.43). 01.07.43 promo to Oberst.
[00.43 appt Kommodore St.G. 101 (to 31.08.43)?]. 12.11.43 appt General der Schlachtflieger
(L.In./2/3)/RLM (to 08.05.45). 01.01.45 promo to Gen.Maj. 08.05.45 became Allied POW. 05.45
Gen.Maj., wanted or held as POW by US. 06.47 released from Allied custody. Postwar worked as a
business man. Credited with sinking or damaging 186,000 GRT of shipping in up to 400 close
support and anti-shipping missions. †10.03.66 in Starnberger See (Söcking) of a heart attack. Buried
in the municipal cemetery in Söcking.

I think the claim number comes from a very well researched biography of Eichenlaubträger written by a German author and published several years ago.

L. deZ.

Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

this is an impressing score indeed. Must be equivalent to some 30 ships.
I checked OSPREY's "Junkers Ju 87 Stukageschwader 1937-41" and "Junkers Ju 87 Stukageschwader of North Africa and the Mediterranean" for personal tonnage scores but none are mentioned.

Have a good start into the week,

Michael