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Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Page 2 has 13 entries, and I refer to them by the model etc as written by the Soviets. I have not altered the records to show information from the new source yet:
12. Me 109 G-2 WNr 14156: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147151 13. Me 109 G-2 WNr 13671: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147634 14. Me 109 E-7 U-2 WNr 3383: Not found - should be an aircraft operated by 8./Schl.G.1 according to the code. 15. Ме 109Е-7 WNr 3604: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142550 16. Me 109E-7 WNr 6047: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142470 17. Me 109E-7 WNr 943: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142474 18. Me 109E-3 WNr 3615: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142464 19. Me 109G-2 WNr 14243: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146185 20. Ме 109Е-7 U-1 WNr 1401: Not found - should be an aircraft operated by 8./Schl.G.1 according to the code. 21. Me 109E-6 WNr 4956: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142462 22. Me 109 WNr 922: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142488 23. Ме 109Е-7 WNr 3382: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142465 24. Ме 109Е-7 U-2 WNr 4824: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142466 Regards, Andreas B |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Thank you, Andreas!
Valuable as usual. What do you think about items 14 and 20? Tear and wear? Best regards, Andrey PS items 23 and 24 are with incorrect references (to the main page of your website, not to database records) |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Quote:
This is BB in flight. And this two photos, when it was found by Soviet troops. Any idea of pilot? |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Page 3 has 15 entries, and I refer to them by the model etc as written by the Soviets. I have not altered the records to show information from the new source yet:
25. Me 109 G WNr 14160: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146320 26. Me 109 G WNr 14197: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146898 27. Me 109 E-7 U-2 WNr 2675: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142461 28. Ме 109Е-7 WNr 3378: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142395 29. Ме 109Е-4 U-1 WNr 1997: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142475 30. Me 109E-7 WNr 5214: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142397 31. Me 109F-4/Trop WNr 10230: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=145825 32. Me 109G-4 WNr 7620 (error in the type designation- this was an F-4): http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146776 33. Ме 109G WNr 14164: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=148078 34. Me 109F-4/Trop WNr 10258: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146775 35. Me 109G WNr 13404: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146893 36. Ме 109G WNr 14162: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146187 37. Ju 88A-4/Trop WNr 5653: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146990 38. Ju 88C-6 WNr 0360218: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146884 39. Me 109E-7 WNr 5118: Not identified - again an aircraft which should have been a 8./Schl.G.1 kite. Regards, Andreas B |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Andreas, thank you again!
It is too early to make a final conclusion but undoubtedly the tables with losses in some books like "Strategy to defeat" by Williamson Murray etc should be corrected. Best regards, Andrey |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
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Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Rémi,
Thanks for this link. What you actually see is a WNF built Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 511 8x9 "Schwarze 1", from an unknown training unit, possibly found at Schleissheim in May 1945. other pics can be seen here: www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/8037252924 http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/ Cheers Marc |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Page 4 has 13 entries, and I refer to them by the model etc as written by the Soviets. I have not altered the records to show information from the new source yet:
40. Me 109 G-2 WNr 13434: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146325 http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=145939 http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=143693 41. Hs 123 WNr 944: Not identified 42. Fi 156C-3 WNr 5013: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147986 43. Hs 123 WNr 2250: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142398 44. Ju 88A-4 WNr 3517: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146306 45. Me 110E-1 WNr 4112: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147241 46. Fi 156D-1/Trop WNr 5675: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=143777 47. Hs 129 : No identifying information available except from the photograph 48. Ме 109E-7 U-2 WNr 3333: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142577 This entry must obviously have an error in the WNr: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=135688 49. FW 189: No identifying information. But as all of the aircraft of 3.(H)/12 (aircraft code identifying the unit) reported as lost between 30.06.1942 and 14.08.1942 had personnel injury involved, someone with access to the NVM of the unit might be able to narrow this down (only 5 losses). 50. Hs 123: No identifying information. Aircraft of Schl.G.1. Red Staffel code. Staffel? 51. Hs 123: No identifying information. Aircraft of Schl.G.1. Green Staffel code. Stab II. Gruppe? 52. FW 189 WNr 0044: Not identified based on this information Regards, Andreas B |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Quote:
4.(Pz.)/Schl.G.1 emblem is seen. |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Quote:
Quote:
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Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Page 5 has 11 entries, and I refer to them by the model etc as written by the Soviets. I have not altered the records to show information from the new source yet:
53. FW 189 A-2 WNr 0233: Not identified based on this information 54. Ju 88A-5 WNr 2336: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=145487 55. Ju-52/3T D-5-E WNr 7078: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=145953 56. Me 109E-3/U1 WNr 1554: Not identified based on this information 57. FW 189D-2 WNr 2301: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146986 58. Me 109E-7 WNr 6060: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=151259 http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142120 59. Me-109 E U-7 WNr 5011: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142389 60. Ju-52 3-M L-4-E WNr 6420: Not identified 61. Hs 123 WNr 2250 : http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142398 62. Ju-52 RM UŠ WNr 5058: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=148465 63. Me 109 WNr 5233: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=162327 http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142467 Regards, Andreas B |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Hello Andreas,
thank you again! Quote:
Ju-52 3-M D-4-E (Russian "Д", not "Л"). Best regards, Andrey |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
better: Ju 52/3mg4e --- the "little" german "m" is an Russian "t" and the German "g" is an Russian "d"
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Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Quote:
But Andreas try to show the Russian records "as is". Best regards, Andrey |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Hallo, all!
Yes - I am trying to write these lists up, albeit with the latin characters, as they were recorded by the Soviet intelligence service. Regards, Andreas B |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Page 6 has 13 entries, and I refer to them by the model etc as written by the Soviets. I have not altered the records to show information from the new source yet:
64. Ju-52/3M D-8-E WNr 7521: Not identified 65. Me-109F4 TROP WNr 8769: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146014 66. Me 109G-2 WNr 13597: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=143692 67. Me 109G-2 WNr 13621: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=112121 68. Me-109E1 U-1 WNr 2941: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142555 69. Hs 123: Not identified 70. DO-17-Z WNr 4249: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147675 71. Me-109C/1 E-7 WNr 3014: Not identified 72. Me 109F-4/Trop WNr 8799: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147133 73. Me-109 F 4 R 1 WNr 13339: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147541 74. Me 109E-7 WNr 4899: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142573 75. Me-109 F 4-Z WNr 7624: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=148823 http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147393 76. Fiziler-156 C3 TROP WNr 5468: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147842 http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=143779 Regards, Andreas B |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
#65: recording Russian report it was W.Nr.8769 not 8764 and an "F" (how I can read)
#70, 75: the Russian letter is an "Z" (like I've learned in the school) |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
It would had be greatly smarter, than our russian friends translate all the commentary , preferable to let Andreas try to make it with a dictionnary
Rémi |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Item 71 is most likely Bf 109 E-7 WNr. 5014.
Regards, Norbert |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Quote:
"без моторов" = without motors "без мотора" = without motor Other significant comments: Item 43: remains of tail part [of plane] Item 47: fore part of stub plane Item 50: tail part Item 51: tail part Item 52: stub plane Item 53: stub plane Item 61: stub plane, fore part decomposed Item 63: fore part decomposed Item 69: fore part decomposed Item 70: stub plane only, without fuselage Other remarks are worded description of the emblems mainly. Column 5 - Manufacturer of plane Column 8 - Modification of the motor Column 11 - Manufacturer of motors Best regards, Andrey |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Hello all,
What a great conversation this has become; Lots of new data. Now a question for our experts: can anyone translate the Cyrillic script under aircraft #5, column 11? I am interested in the Motor manufacturer of DB 601 A-1 30109. Thank you in advance. Steve Sheflin |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Hi Steve,
Under #3 it is written Henschel Kassel. |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Hentschel engine plant in Kassel
Quote:
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Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Hello Tomislav and Nikita,
Thank you so very much for your rapid answers. I have others, but I don’t want to be a pest. Steve Sheflin |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
No problem Steve, I know what you are after :)
I already extracted the DB601 and DB605 data to a excel sheet. |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Quote:
Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.10. There is a strong possibility here though we can admit too "T" could have been replaced. Last, can be a typo from both parts ... And no other entries concerning both machines to check "who" is "who" ... Regards, Franck. |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
A group shot of some planes in question along the railroad
(from Alexey Sergeev's page): http://deruluft.livejournal.com/93200.html It is pity that items 77-99 of the TsAMO list remains without comparison with German data. Best regards, Andrey |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Amazing. Absolutely amazing.
Thanks, Ed |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Hello, all. Vacation time in Norway - no time for Luftwaffe stuff most days - but here goes:
Page 7 has 13 entries, and I refer to them by the model etc as written by the Soviets. I have not altered the records to show information from the new source yet: 77. Me 109E-4 WNr 7615: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147777 78. Ju 88A-5 WNr 2336: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=145487 79. Me 110 WNr 4503: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146845 80. Ju 87 D3 TR WNr 2446: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146904 81. Me 109 WNr 13289: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=148068 82. Me 109F-4 WNr 7261: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=151195 http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147152 83. Me 109F-4 WNr 7646: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=148808 84. Me 109F-4/Trop WNr 10219: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=149364 85. Me 109F-4/R1 WNr 13355: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=152515 http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147395 86. Me 109 of JG 53 - White 8: No information 87. Ме 109Е-7 WNr 6426: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=163189 http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142645 88. Ме 109Е-7/U-1 WNr 6479: No information 89. Fi 156 WNr 20732/26: No information Regards, Andreas B |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Andrey,
Thank you ever so much for the exciting new photo. Steve Sheflin |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Page 8 has 10 entries, and I refer to them by the model etc as written by the Soviets. I have not altered the records to show information from the new source yet:
90. Ju 87D3 TROP WNr 2404: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147556 91. Me 110G5 WNr 82225: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=161720 92. Me 109E7 U-1 WNr 5103: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=156758 93. Me 110F4 WNr 22718: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147240 94. Me 110E2/N WNr 3938: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=155811 95. Ju 88A-4 WNr 4106: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146993 96. Ju 88A-4 WNr 6716: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=146084 97. He 111-6 TROP WNr 7604: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147346 98. Me 109E7 U-2 WNr 2030: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142576 99. Ju 88A-4 WNr 5502: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=132030 Regards, Andreas B |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Andreas, thank you a lot!!!
Best regards, Andrey |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Wow! Thank you so much Andreas for this great work.
Vince... |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Andreas, a small blot in your excellent posts:
Quote:
Go145A WNr1524 DB+GO Kind regards, Andrey |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Andreas,
Let me add my congratulations to those of the others! |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Conclusion about "99 planes" episode.
As it turned out, the number was 98, not 99. Items 43 and 61 are the same Hs123 WNr 2250. Obviously centerwing and tail part were in the different places. So 98 planes: A. 25 - with factory Nos, mentioned in German loss/damages lists and had 60%-100% damages in appropriate timeframe and location (consider 60% as the lower border for write-off though reality was more complicated a bit). B. 50 - the same but with damages less than 60%. C. 18 - with factory Nos, but isn’t mentioned in German loss/damages lists in appropriate timeframe and location. D. 4 - without factory Nos but with board codes. E. 1 - Hs129 without factory No and board code. 50+18 = 68 planes (items B and C) are the total losses due to enemy action unknown before the current discussion. 4+1 = 5 planes (items D and E) maybe unknown total losses too (partly or in whole). For some of 4 planes (item D) identification is possible probably, as Andreas Brekken wrote: Quote:
Another 55 planes from the same source (TsAMO, fund 500) but in more suitable form on Alexey Sergeev's page. http://deruluft.livejournal.com/93454.html Best regards, Andrey |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Hi - Thanks for all your efforts here in bringing these documents to the forefront. So to keep the Post here fresh has any new information been discovered about other such Documents in Russian Archives
Thanks and Regards - Tom Willis |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Hello all,
new document from TsAMO: http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/837253/zooms/8 List of 24 Luftwaffe planes in repair or irrepairable on airfield Armawir (North Caucasus) 20.Jan.43 before evacuation. Most of them were destroyed by Germans 22.Jan43. From this list probably only WNr.144110 and 144094 flew away. Red checked 5 Ju88 (almost serviceable) were destroyed. I think they are absent in GQM loss returns, many others possibly are absent too. Bf109 WNr14225 listed in GQM returns as 35% 9.Jan43 Bf109 WNr.13866 listed as destroyed by Germans 2.Jan.43 - maybe typo? Fi156 WNr.5089 listed as 35% 16.Jan.43 and 50% 18.Jan.43 Any additions and comments are welcomed. Best regards, Andrey |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Quote:
List of German Luftwaffe aircraft under repair and wrecked at Armavir airfield on 20 January 1943 Arbeitsmeldung: über die in Armawir liegenden Flugzeuge 1. Ju 88 360 169 F1 + BD Klar 20.1.43 2. Ju 88 360 199 F1 + H? D Klar 20.1.43 3. Ju 88 144 086 F1 + RM Klar 20.1.43 4. Ju 88 4077 F1 + DS Klar 20.1.43 Voraussichtlich klar am 21.1.1943 5. Ju 88 144 110 F1 + HR Motorwechsel 1. 6. Ju 88 5768 F1 + C? M Vernebelpumpe wechseln 7. Ju 88 144 094 F1 + R? R Linker Motor bleibt nach kurzer lauf stehen Instandsetzung fräglich 8. Ju 88 140 347 F1? + C? H Kühlwasserverlust im Motor 9. Ju 88 3759 9K + HP Linker Motor springt nicht an. Flzg hatte Bombenschaden Bruch und Bombenbeschädigte Fluzgeuze Instandsetzung nicht möglich. 10. Ju 88 430 419 F6? + TM 11. Ju 88 5782 F1? + AN 12. Ju 88 2254 F1 + JN 13. Ju 88 4018 9H + FN? 14. Ju 88 0322 T5 + UK 15. Ju 88 0371 9K + R? M 16. Ju 88 4070 F1 + I? R 17. He 111 7360 6N + H? K 18. Do 17 1086 K7 + QH 19. Bf 109/GL.13866 20. Bf 109/GL.14225 21. Fi 156 5089 C2 + PM 22. Fi 156 5522 DJ + UC 23. Fi 156 5828 K7 + JH 24. Kl 32 865 R1+AH O.U., den 20.1.43 |
Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
Hello Dan,
meticulous work, with one exception: 17. He111 is 7860, not 7360 Best regards, Andrey |
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