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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Number 11, Sinclair was last seen with his right engine on fire at 42 20N, 15 04E. The MACR 13005 on fold3 seems to be missing the eyewitness statement of a Lt Burke, so I am not sure if he says he actually saw the plane crash. The date of the crash, 10 March 45 may rule it out.
Number 16, Strader is flying from Enland (RAF St Mawgan in Cornwall) direct to Foggia. He never arrives. He was last seen when he took off at 9:15. Number 20, Gillen is last seen near Wiener Neustadt (Lake Neusiedler). His element had just flown through a heavy concentration of 20mm flak. They were flying quite low, 300 feet at one point. Gillen is missing after passing through the flak concentration. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Number 14 is mentioned as witness in another MACR in March 1945, so it is likely that he was lost on 22 April 1945.
Apparently only the MIA cases number 15 & 16 are from the timeframe August to October 1944. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
And number 17, Lindberg who went missing on Oct 11, 1944 some 45 miles from the actual crash site.
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello Swank,
In regard to your early post numbered 2. Take a look at Macr 3880, a B24 crew. The only Flag3 find for Drvar that I could find. The remains (X-55) may well be those of the B24's dead man that remains unfound. The story of the witnesses is also similar to the P38's pilot fate. Alex |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Alex, I looked over MACR 3880. Eight of the crew evaded. The pilot, Frederick E Streicher was a POW and has a post war statement in the MACR. The co-pilot, George E Morrell was from New Jersey and he was killed on the ground and was buried in Yugoslavia.
However, Morrell is not on the current AAF MIA list here: http://www.dpaa.mil/Portals/85/Docum...air_force.html nor on the current Army MIA list here: http://www.dpaa.mil/Portals/85/Docum...ates_army.html nor the combined services list for New Jersey here: http://www.dpaa.mil/portals/85/Docum...ew_jersey.html He is not buried in an ABMC overseas cemetery as can be checked on the abmc.gov website. I think Morrell's body was recovered and returned after the war. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
I posted Lindberg's MACR on the armyairforces.com forum (running out of posting space on this forum).
http://forum.armyairforces.com/threa...721/#post-4373 On that thread we explored the fate of No 15, Townsend and have pretty much ruled him out also. We also turned up a couple more MIAs (Brewer and Coulson) not on the list of 20 (see list above in this thread) and also ruled them out. Also just FYI, the grave site of George E Morrell has been located. http://forum.armyairforces.com/threa...735/#post-4377 |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello,
Brewer - MACR 9694, Raska area . Coulson - MACR 9696, Raska area. Both have times around 11.00 hrs. Both KIA. Alex |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Alex, do you have the plane serial numbers for Brewer and Coulson?
Another question for you. since you came up with a "missing" MACR number for Townsend. Joe Baugher has a page showing MACRs for P-38s in the serial number range of 44-23059 to 44-23208 here: http://cgibin.rcn.com/jeremy.k/cgi-b...23059&content= We think the P-38 involved with X-55 was possibly from that range of numbers but the MACR is "missing" - thus not on fold3.com and not on Joe's list either. Do you know of any MACR numbers for planes in this range (44-23059 to 44-23208) that are NOT shown on Joe Bauger's list? |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
These two MIA cases were on the list I've compiled from the DPAA data (and were already ruled out by vathra):
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello Roland,
Confirm Rainer's serial numbers. King was a 3strd 82nd loss on that day November 7th 1944. MACR 9695 serial number 44-24392, King evaded. In answer to how many serial numbers in the 44-23059 44-23208 that are NOT in the JB's P-38J-15-LO List. I counted 110. They were- 44-23 O59;60;61;62;63;64;66;67;68;69;70;71;72. 74 to 86; 88 to 113. ; 115 ;117;118; 120; 121;123;126 to 143; 145;146; 148 to 150; 152; 154; 155; 157; 158; 163; 165;166. 170; 176; 178; 179; 182; 184 to 186; 190; 191; 193 to 195. 197 to 199; 202; 203; 206 to 208. Alex |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
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Sorry for mistake in first answer - I had problems with search in Excel, he was killed and buried in Yugoslavia, and later transferred. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
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Soviets attacked with planes, and two P-38s and some Yaks were shot down before they noticed markings and broke off. They were buried near airfield, but it seems their graves were forgotten since they are still missing. King was in another group which didn't get lost, he was shot by german AA, and evaded as mentioned. I have NMR of this mission, and King's E&E. I would be grateful for their MACRs, since they are not available on Fold3. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Alex, do you have MACR numbers for any of the 111 serial numbers you mentioned above?
It is possible that for the 150 planes from 44-23059 to 44-23208 apparently the final fates are are only know for 39 of them? Wouldn't the aircraft history cards still exist? |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
I've made an analysis of the 149 aircraft of this P-38J-15-LO batch (44-23059 to 44-23208), for 69 of them there is a MACR, accident report or are otherwise accounted for (known post-war service, conversations, etc.).
Found only two MACR from that range that are not mentioned by Baugher: MACR 15178 for 44-23066 that was lost in the PTO on 7 Oct 1944 MACR 13468 for 44-23082 that was lost in the Canal Zone on 30 Mar 1945 Only 19 of these 149 P-38s are known to have been lost or crashed in the MTO:
Interesting is that 16 of them are from the same range of 25 aircraft between serial 44-23181 and 44-23205 and the other three are also close together, which indicates that the allocation of aircraft to a certain theatre of operation was apparently made directly from the production line. This is also confirmed by the 25 aircraft between serial 44-23156 and 44-23180 that were apparently sent to the P-38 equipped FGs based in the UK. So it is possible that none of the 86 aircraft between 44-23059 and 44-23144 were allocated to the ETO or MTO, because all known crashes and losses in this range happened in the US, Canal Zone or PTO. However, there is a noticable gap of 18 aircraft between 44-23126 and 44-23143 that aren't listed as crashed or lost at all. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello Rainer,
Great result. So as I was only asked to provide the aircraft numbers that did not result in an Macr in Fold3 I did not go further. From the 110 that I found it looks like only 6 can now be deleted as they were in accidents, which brings the number down to 104. Then there are at least 2 that you found had Macr, which brings my number down to 102. I will look again at these. From looking I find the following 19 a/c can be deleted from my 102. 44-23 068; 072; 081; 090; 094; 100; 101; 103; 107; 109; 118; 120; 152; 163; 166; 176; 206; 207; 208. This brings my total numbers down to 83 a/c. Have a good day Alex |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Rainer, good work.
I went ahead and created a spreadsheet for P-38s in that range, looking at the MACRs for the serial numbers or the engines and the guns. Note: Unknown X-55 has 50 cal guns 1190815, 1190382 and 1294465 X-55 has one engine serial number at A-047489. X-55 had 20mm as 120206 Just comparing some serial number ranges: Looking a the MACR serial numbers and trying to find any that have "close" numbers, it turns out that 44-23144 (which was in the 459th) had engines A-047609 and A-047216 and 50 cal numbers 1190346, 1190353 44-23147 had engines A-047741 and A-047203 and guns 1190821 and 1190385. 44-23188 had engines A-049627 and A-049421 (not so "close") but had guns 1190304 and 1190333. This "might" suggest that the unknown plane was somewhere close to those. The 11908xx and 11903xx show up individually in several other planes in your range, but it appears that the only multiple "close" matches occur in those above. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello,
From the 83 serial numbers only one came good in Fold3. 44-23085 - made 16449. So 82 unknowns. Question how were the replacement aircraft delivered in theAtlantic and Pacific war areas, were they flown over miles of ocean or sent as ships cargo. If by ship is it possible that a ship with a batch of P38's was sunk? This might explain the run of numbers numbers, it would be known the ship had sunk with its cargo so there would not be any macr's(no pilots). Alex |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
I have started on a different approach. There is a way to pull from the abmc.gov site (by squadron) all the MIAs from the each of the 3 fighter groups into spreadsheets. I have completed the 1st FG and am working on the 14th and 82nd.
In each case, I am trying to determine if there is a MACR for the missing man or enough info elsewhere to rule the man "out". For the 1st FG, I think all the 52 men listed as missing can be ruled out. For the 14th FG I have come up with one name so far. Lawrence D Wells. http://abmc.gov/node/549730#.V6nBfVQrJ1Y His FOD date is September 12, 1945 which "may" mean a loss date of September 11, 1944. I cannot find a MACR for him or any information about him for that matter. Anyone know anything about Wells? He is listed on the dpaa list here with a loss location of "Italy", but no other info. http://www.dpaa.mil/Portals/85/Docum...air_force.html He does not seem to be on any accident report either. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello Roland,
O-750741, Wells, Lawrence D, P38F 41-7633 01/03/1944 Alex MACR 1695 |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Alex, is that Jan 3 1944 or March 1 1944? At any rate either loss date seems to rule him out.
I also found a MACR for Leroy Strader, 145g FG with a FOD date 1945-08-20. The MACR is in the "blank" section on fold3.com, 10 pages long. No plane number, the MACR number is 10005. For those with fold3 access, here is a link to the first page. https://www.fold3.com/image/139144183 He was lost on 1944-08-19 on a ferry flight from England to Italy. There were a group of pilots from the 1st , 14, and 82nd FG ferrying planes back from England. Strader's gyro horizon went out soon after take-off from England. At that time the group had separated somewhat as they tried to climb through heavy clouds between 15,000 to 32,000 feet. Strader apparently went into a spin and bailed out. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello,
Yes, January 3rd, 1944. If I recall these were also lost that date. 43-2437 - David C. Fritz - 14FG. 42-12732 - Jack P. Muffitt - 1FG. For some reason now forgotten I had 2Lt. Darrel K. Stoyke linked to MACR 10005 (August 19th,1944). Strader is also MACR 8341, a/c 43-28336. Alex |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Darrel K Stoyke was lost near the mouth of the Rhone on 19 August 1944, same day as Strader.
I cannot find a MACR for Stoyke, but he is not MIA. MARCs 8341 and 10005 are both for Strader on the 19 August 1944 loss. 8341 has a plane serial number and 10005 does not. 10005 has the eyewitness statement of what happened. Odd they issued two MACRs for the same crash, but when you read through 10005 there was a lot of "back and forth" about missing info. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
So it seems the aircraft of those pilots of 1st FG, 14th FG or 82nd FG still listed as MIA by DPAA that were lost during the second half of 1944 are known now, but none fits the serial numbers mentioned in the X-55 case. However, there is little doubt that the numbers belong to a late built P-38J from one of these batches:
43-28248/29047 Lockheed P-38J-15-LO Lightning (MSN 422-3263/422-4062) 44-23059/23208 Lockheed P-38J-15-LO Lightning (MSN 422-4063/422-4212) The first aircraft lost in the MTO from the two batches were in May 1944 resp. July 1944, so I extended my earlier search for MIA cases from the three P-38 equipped FGs in the MTO in the DPAA data to include May to July 1944. I found no cases with an unknown MACR during the three months and only four were about aircraft with serials in the ranges we look for: 1944-06-10 2LT SMITH, ALBERT F (O-750703) 71 FS/1 FG MACR 5762: P-38J 43-28732 lost over Romania on 10 Jun 1944 1944-07-09 2LT VANDIVER, JOHN J (O-822182) 95 FS/82 FG MACR 7103: P-38J 44-23201 lost over Italy on 9 Jul 1944 1944-07-13 2LT MICHELI, HOWARD G (O-762384) 94 FS/1 FG MACR 7192: P-38J 44-23147 lost over Adriatic Sea on 13 Jul 1944 1944-07-28 1LT KUYKENDALL, JIM L (O-423077) 27 FS/1 FG MACR 7008: P-38J 43-28645 lost mid-air collision with 43-28370 over Romania on 28 Jul 1944 MACR 7008: 43-28645 had engines A-045500 & A-045110, 20mm 123470 and .50cal 1075736, 1076537, 1079558 & 1075068 MACR 5762: 43-28732 had engines A-045570 & A-045258, 20mm 116740 and .50cal 1294184, 1294112, 1293457 & 1294268 MACR 7192: 44-23147 had engines A-047741 & A-047203, 20mm 120594 and .50cal 734993, 1190428, 1190821 & 1190385 MACR 7103: 44-23201 had engines A-047677 & A-041745, 20mm 119201 and .50cal 1179394, 1179600, 1179595 & 1176966 There are still three MIA cases on my earlier list that could not be linked to an aircraft loss yet, but all were probably lost in early 1945: 1945-02-17 1LT GRAHAM, CARL G (O-769804) 97 FS/82 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Adriatic Sea on 17 Feb 1945 1945-04-08 1LT ZIMMERMANN, RICHARD (O-684597) 48 FS/14 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Adriatic Sea 1945-04-22 1LT ANDERSON, ERNEST L (O-767063) 95 FS/82 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Mediterranean Sea on 22 Apr 1945 |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
For Zimmermann I have him lost on 7 April 1944, MACR 3705 in 42-104017.
http://aviationarchaeology.com/src/d...ard&Submit7=Go I don't think there are any other 14th FG possibilties. Still working on the 82nd list. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Carl G Graham appears several times in Montana newspapers, which follow his progress through training and on to the 15th AF in Italy. For example, in a Nov 28, 1944 newspaper his promotion to 1st Lt in a P-38 fighter group in Italy is noted.
He appears on a death list printed April 2, 1945, which would suggest a loss in Feb 1945. |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Anderson has a eye-witness statement in a MACR from March 1945, so he definitely died in 1945.
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello Roland,
Some time ago I did some research together with Roland in Austria. As a result I emassed a list of over 5 thousand P38 & F4&5's, sadly due to my computer failure in January this year all was lost. However if it helps I still have much on paper. Example: 82nd FG From June 1944 Kia/Mia Macr's 5856; 5760; 5763; 5769; 6132; 7103; 7070; 7042; 7003; 7147; 7010; 7460; 7671; 7695; 7681; 8100; 8956; 8752; 9588; 9696; 9694; 9894; 9935; 1945 11088; 12111; 12148; 12147; 12669; 13071; 13070; 13259; 13648; 14023. There were others but have not names+ serial number+ macr match anymore. Example yesterday I spent some time searching for pilot named Chiek without success, today I found on paper the correct name Cwiek 2Lt. Mitchell S. 108/22/1944- 42-104105, POW. All for now Alex |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
I have competed working through the 82nd FG list. I started by pulling all 82nd FG MIAs listed as from the abmc website. (Done by Squadron including the Headquarters Squadron).
There are NO MACRs on fold3 for the following two men: Coulson, Eldon E O-715478: but on Aviation Archaeology he is listed with plane 43-28662, MACR 9696 and loss date of 1944-11-7. His FOD date per the abmc is 1945-11-8. Brewer Philip O-715462: but on Aviation Archaeology he is listed with plane 44-24035, MACR 9694 and loss date of 1944-11-7. His FOD date is give as the date of death 1944-11-7. I may decide to pay the fee to order the above MACRs. but neither serial number is in our “suspected” range. For Bortner, Robert W there is no MACR and no info on Aviation Archaeology. The 82nd Website here: http://raf-112-squadron.org/82ndfghonor_roll.html has him in plane 42-68007 and and a loss date of 1944-3-13. His FOD date per the abmc website is 1945-3-13 . http://abmc.gov/node/547209#.V7Gy21QrJ1Y http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=56306732 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=22483987 For the following two men there is no additional info other then what is mentioned in posts 66 and 67 above. Anderson, Ernest L. FOD date of 1945-4-22 and probably? also death date. No MACR and nothing on Aviation Archaeology. He is listed on the 82nd website but with no other info. http://abmc.gov/node/529196#.V7G4A1QrJ1Y http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=56362112 Graham, Carl G. FOD date of 1945-2-17 and probably? also death date. No MACR and nothing on Aviation Archaeology. He is listed on the 82nd website but with no other info. http://abmc.gov/node/529749#.V7G4QFQrJ1Y http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=56363840 |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello Roland,
Well I found that I could not download the whole thing but could do it a state by State. Result - Yugoslavia Lindberg, Donald I. 1Lt. O- 770328 - 27FS/1FG. MACR. 9074 - 43-28630 Coulson, Eldon E. 2Lt. O- 715478 - 95FS/82FG. MACR 9696( I do have it) - 43-28662 . Follett, John R. 1Lt. O- 762304 - 27FS/1FG. MACR 9970. - 44-24444. Valley, Day R. 1Lt. O-739368 - 71FS/1FG. MACR 3700 - 42-67070. Steffani, Edward. 2Lt. O-708161 - 71FS/1FG. MACR 9892 - 44-24429 Brewer, Phillip . 2Lt. O-715462 95FS/82FG. MACR 9694 - 44-24035. Coulson and Brewer were seen to have been s/d by Yak-9's it seems( In a now forgotten sky). Then this man Crawford, Robert W. 1Lt. O-579877 - ÀAFHQ(Med). 5/25/1944. Alex |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Alex, I think all the ones you list that have MACRs can probably be eliminated. We have looked at the MACRs on fold3 and you have both? MACRs for Coulson and Brewer. None of the serial numbers match, correct?
Robert W Crawford is interesting, because he was killed at Dvar on 25 May 1944. He was not a pilot, however, so there is no MACR. This link says Crawford accompanied Col George Kraigher on a mission, apparently to meet with Tito on behalf of General Eaker. Crawford was killed when the Germans launched an assault on Dvar in an attempt to get Tito. https://books.google.com/books?id=fN...page&q&f=false |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello,
I agree re they all had MACR's except Crawford. But they were the only ones in the dpaa.mil lists that were headed"Yugoslavia". There are many others that have no details of a/c serial or MACR. From the dpaa list here are those of the 82FG. Anderson, Ernest L. 1Lt. 95FS. Med Antilla, Erwin E. 2Lt. 97FS. Italy Atteberry, Lloyd E. 1Lt. 97FS. Tunisia Baldwin, Harry W. 2Lt. 95FS. Tunisia Beatty, Robert E. 2Lt. 97FS. Med Bentzlin, Conrad F. 2Lt. 97FS. Sicily Bortner,Robert W. 2Lt. 97FS. Italy Champion, Louis C. 1Lt. 96FS. Atlantic Ocean Crichton, Douglas E. 1Lt. 96FS. Sardinia 42-12830. Conners, James F. 2Lt. 97FS. Med Cookson, Jerold A. 1Lt. 95FS. Italy Croddy, Robert M. 2Lt. 95FS. Italy 43-2467 Curran, Charles R. 2Lt. 95FS. Med Delahunt, Frederick J. 2Lt. 96FS. Tunisia Delp, Robert L. 2Lt. 97FS. Med Dennison, Frank W. 2Lt. 96FS. Italy 42-12932 Diel, Harold S. 1Lt. 96FS. Greece 42-13206 Duncan, Jesse T. 2Lt. 96FS. Med Dunn, William J. 2Lt. 97FS. Tunisia Ellerbee, Allen E. Jr.2Lt. 95FS. Med Farrell, Harold M. 2Lt. 95FS. Tyrrhenian sea 42-13262 Francke, William T. 2Lt. 96FS. 42-13132 Force, James A. Capt. 97FS. Italy Gasaway, Harry S. 2Lt. 97FS. Med Graham, Carl G. 1Lt. 97 FS. Adriatic Green, Earl T. 2Lt. 96FS. Hand, Stanley S. 2Lt. 96FS. Greece 43-2456 Hays, Oliver B. 2Lt. 95FS. Med Heffington, Dale L. 2Lt. 97FS. Tunisia Hieronymus, W. M. 1Lt. 97FS. Med Johnson, James C. 2Lt. 97FS. Tunisia Knell, William A. 2Lt. 927FS. Tuniasia Lawrence, Lee H. 2Lt. 96FS. Tunisia Lewis, Ervin A. 1Lt. 97FS. Med Low, Roy M. LtCol. 82FG. Tunisia Luddington, Lloyd F. 2Lt. 97FS. Med McNamara, David A. 2Lt. 95FS. Adriatic sea 43-2406 Miller Franklin. Capt. 96FS. Med Molloy, Francis M. 2Lt. 95FS. Med Moore, Gerald E. Jr. 2Lt. 95FS. Tyrrhenian sea 43-2497 Paskiewicz, Paul I. 2Lt. 95FS. Italy 42-13402 Porterfield, Joseph A. 2Lt. 94FS. Italy 42-13210 Pyle, Benjamin C. 2Lt. 97FS. Med Ragland, Clifford L. 2Lt. 95FS. Italy 43-2476 Rainear, Charles J. 2Lt. 95FS. Sicily Reding, James P. 2Lt. 95FS. Med Riddle, William L. 2Lt. 95FS sea Shearer, Donald H. 2Lt. 95FS. Med Sheen, Joseph R. Jr. 2Lt. 95FS. Med Sheets, Melvin A. F/O. 97FS. Italy Smidt, Robert H. F/O. 96FS. Italy 43-2514 Smith, Harold I. 2Lt. 95FS. Med 43-2086 Spence, Homer A. 1Lt. 96FS. Germany 42-104049 Spencer, Charles R. Major. 97FS. Italy Strumpell, Marc E. 1Lt. 95FS. Adriatic sea 42-13163 Towson, Louis A. 1Lt. 97FS. Med Washburn, Jack. 2Lt. 97FS. Med Wilkins, Ora M. 1Lt. 95FS. Tunisia Williams, Robert B. jr. 2Lt. 97FS. Albania Wilson, Earl W. 2Lt. 97FS. Tunisia Winney, John L.2Lt. 95FS. Tyrrhenian sea 42-12832 I could find no others Alex |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hi Alex
There are actually 84 pilots of 82nd FG still listed as MIA in the DPAA data, but most were lost earlier than May 1944. Here is an analysis of the 29 cases listed with a later date:
DarkRed: Lost earlier than May 1944 or wrong P-38 type. DarkOrange: Aircraft unknown DarkGreen: Type P-38J-15-LO |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
DPAA lists 68 pilots of 1st FG still MIA, but only 28 with a date in May 1944 or later:
DarkRed: Lost earlier than May 1944 or wrong P-38 type. DarkOrange: Aircraft unknown DarkGreen: Correct type: P-38J-15-LO |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello,
Well done. Looks like I missed Clark in my "Yugoslav" post number 70. Maybe Left out because of known macr? Alex |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
DPAA lists 50 pilots of 14th FG still MIA, but only 21 with a date in May 1944 or later:
DarkRed: Lost earlier than May 1944 or wrong P-38 type. DarkOrange: Aircraft unknown DarkGreen: Correct type: P-38J-15-LO |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
Hello,
MACR 16283 has the following . Dated 15 January 1943. Stated - missing a/c "on Cape Bon, Tunisia". Crew(?) listed as- Pilot- Kirschke, Robert P. 2Lt. O-659824. CoPilot-Driver, Lawrence E. 2Lt. O-729327. Elliott, Jr,Robert F. 2Lt. O-394428. Moore, Jr,Gail E. 1Lt. O-431143. Burton, John F. 2Lt. O-728971. Wolford, John L. 1Lt. O-423980. Howk Jr,Frank C.1Lt. O-441475. Little, Albert H. 1Lt. O-431231. Snyder, Buren J. 2Lt. O-734016. Chavis, Wayne M. 2Lt. O-728977. Butler, James E. 1Lt. O-431382. Alex Sending you a pm |
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
I have been asked how we can be sure the lost plane was a P-38. Allison engines, for example, were also used on A-36s, P-51As, P-40s and P-39s and P-63s. Here is my thinking on the matter but I would be interested what others think. P-38s had two Allison engines. They turned in opposite directions. Armament consisted of four 50 cal machines guns and one 20 mm cannon, all mounted in the nose.
Starting with the serial numbers of the unknown. We have for the guns: 1190382, 1190815, 1294465 and 120206 and for the Allison engine: A-047489. We have identified in MACRs a series of Savage Arms M2 50 cal machine guns. They have numbers on both sides of 1190382 and 1190815. The planes with these guns were all P-38J-15-LOs and all were manufactured at the same time. Their serial numbers range from 44-23059 to 44-23208. Gun 1294465 appears to be a M2 50 CAL machine gun manufactured by Buffalo Arms. I have found 1294418 in a MACR identified as a Buffalo Arms M2 machine gun for example. 120206 appears to be a 20mm cannon, as I have found 120207 identified as a 20 mm cannon. 20 mm: 120259, 120231 https://www.fold3.com/image/28697341 (MACR for a P-61) 20 mm: 120207 : https://www.fold3.com/image/29250882?terms=42%5C-5583 (MACR for a P-61) I think this series of 20mm cannons was made by International Harvester. Now A-36s, P-51As and P-40s only carried machine guns, not 20 mm cannons. So I think they are ruled out. P-39s did have a cannon. The original models had 20mm cannons but the later models had a 37mm cannon. The Italians did operate P-39s over the Balkans late in the war. From a wikipedia article (so consider the source): “12° Group's P-39s flew their first mission over Albania. “Concentrating on ground attack, the Italian P-39s proved to be suitable in this role, losing 10 aircraft between 4 November and 3 December 1944”. “The 4°*Stormo*pilots flew many effective ground attack missions on northern*Yugoslavia, losing only one more P-39, for engine failure in*Sarajevo*area, on 2 April 1945.” And of course, the Russians had received P-39s and P-63s as lend lease. The P-63s also had 37mm cannons. The P-39 model both the Italians and Russians were using, the P-39Qs had the 37mm cannon. Also the Russians sometimes removed the 50 cal M2 in the wings and flew with only two 50 cal in the nose along with the 37mm cannon. The P-63s flown by the Russians also had a 37mm cannon. I think the fact that a 20 mm cannon was found pretty much rules out the P-39s and P-63s, even though they did have Allison engines. The models of Allison engines used in P-39s and P-63s were different than the models of Allison engines used in P-38s. The unknown had serial number A-047489. That serial number is for a V-1710 , -89 or -91 engine. (The two engines on a P-38 turned in opposite directions and the I think the -89 or -91 were those two versions of the same engine. The Allison engine models in the P-39Qs were V-1710-85s and in the P-63 were were V-1710-117s. So the Unknown had a P-38 type engine and not a P-39 or P-63 type of Allison engine. |
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