Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

No he is not & there is no need to root for his health as I have already said!

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hmm, that's good. I was worried because your choice of words was difficult for me to translate.
What your personal opinion about Tanzer ?
Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

will it ever be possible to estimate when Heinz Marquardt scored his kills number #90-98 ?
I mean before or after the transition from Bf109 to Fw190 ?
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/marquardt.html

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

...or is it at least possible to estimate if his kill #98 was scored before or after 7Apr1945 ?

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Guys

With regards to Michael's list of published works and there totals for Tanzer, remember what John Foreman said "Once published, it's cast in stone" basically these totals have been so duplicated over the years it's hard to imagine them untrue, but I do feel that is the case. We have not yet established the very first use of these high figures. Seems that Toliver/Constable used it in 1968, but I suspect it goes back further than that.
If I were a betting man(which I'm not), then I would say Hans Ring had something, or a lot to do with it.
Does anybody have Ernst Obermaier's 1966 Ritterkreuz publication?

Let us not forget that Tanzer died in 1960, chances are he was ignorant of the 128/143. Decorations had a habit of equalling themselves out i.e a "cheap" Ritterkreuz might not have been added to despite many later claims, yet still this would be somewhat of a record I think.

So we still need to establish when and by whom the 128/143 was first used. Perhaps in the end it was just a typo error !!!

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hello Johannes

I have the book of Obermaier (1966)

"Die genaue Abschusszahl is ungeklärt.Mindestens 128 luftsiege.Nach einer Soldbucheitragung 143,davon 17 West,4 Viermots.

"Seine Westabschüsse müssen während seiner Zeit beim Jafü 6/Ostpreussen erzeilt worden sein."

Best Regards
Michel

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good afternoon dear Johannes,

hope you're doing fine.
Yes it would be very satisfying to see the Tanzer issue being clarified by finding evidence of a correct total of 43.

Good afternoon dear Michel,

thanks for sharing the intesting Soldbucheintrag info.

I'll keep my eyes open and report to you as soon as find anything.

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Guys

So 1966 is the earliest reference we have.....so far. Some kind person did enlighten me to another incarnation of JG51 being Ostpreussen, so Jafü 6/Ostpreussen must surely be associated with/ is JG51. The only claims references I have found for them is on the KBT papers 1945, which list the details with the exception of the pilots names, and in reality they are claimed by regular pilots flying for regular staffeln. There is no reason(in my opinion)for any claims by Tanzer until the end of 1944 not to be on the mikrofilms

Anyway Ernst Obermaier's 1966 work is inferior to the later one, but was the best of it's kind at the time. He just continued collating information over the next twenty and more years, but could not resolve the Tanzer enigma, which he viewed as such. To the point everything after this 1966 publication had plagiarized this work, and I can see why, most of the 1966 publication is correct. Point is that if Obermaier(who was well respected) stated 128, in good faith, then everybody since has duplicated it.

Remember what John Foreman and myself said "For our book to work, you must forget everything before".

So now we know the probable source of fifty years of duplication. So sometime before 1966 Obermaier had some source that led him to state 128......but unclear/uncertain. I assume that Obermaier had contacted many aces over the years, and received copies of many documents. But Tanzer died in 1960, possibly the subject was taboo at the time anyway, perhaps pre unit reunions?

Sometimes for a pilots "100th" kill there was a plaque made, I have never seen for for Tanzer, but also not for many "100" ers, they also become less used towards the end of the war.

It is accepted now that Hans Ring liked to play games with his enormous knowledge, adding made-up data to fact, we assume to see if his information has been used.......perhaps he requested it wasn't used in publications, we just don't really know. I can only guess that this is the original source.

So in my opinion we must now believe that Obermaier was incorrect in this instance, we will be in effect rewriting history. But it would be nice to know where Obermaier got his information?

Keep well

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

BTW, does anyone know where Tanzer was buried? He was killed 25-6-60 near Palma de Mallorca/Spain in a Luftwaffe Lockheed T-33A "EB+397", his unit was Aufklärungsgeschwader 52, based at this time at Erding Airfield near Munich/Bavaria.

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Guys

There are several other "100" ers from before the mikrofilms somewhat below this total. Some can be explained away by unconfirmed claims being included, a good case of this is Geißthardt.

Woidich has been a "Hans Ring" game.

Wachowiak had eighty-nine. I think Obermaier stated that his Mother said 120-130. So based on hearsay. Obermaier correctly states eight-six, then nothing more heard of him until his death. In reality Wachowiak returned to combat later and claimed three additional Russian aircraft.......total eight-nine.

Then there are those who tell tales. I do believe that Walter Dahl used his position in 1945 to just not so much "overclaim", but rather just made up a heap of claims post war. He himself states a total of 133. Therefore if my theory is correct then it's hearsay, or his say. He lists witnesses for his claims, unfortunately they will all be gone now, but I bet if we asked them they would deny ever flying with Dahl.

I have even seen a "doctored" flugbuch, basically claims added in post war, and judging by the handwriting, not by the pilot. There is also an abschüßelist about for a Schlacht pilot with 103 claims, he existed in real life, but the claims he did make in real life(mikrofilms) do not match any of those on the list.

Slowly perhaps we will get to the truth.

Keep Well

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good afternoon Johannes,

your endeavours to clarify obscure issues are praiseworthy and well-balanced.
Do you think we will ever find the missing dates of the kills of Heinz Marquardt ?

Athe best to you,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Can be found i Freiburg:

PERS 6/53009
Marquardt, Fritz Heinz
Bestandsbezeichnung
Personalunterlagen von Angehörigen der Reichswehr und Wehrmacht
Geburtsdatum
18.12.1916
Amtsbezeichnung/Dienstgrad
Oberleutnant
Unterlagenart
Personalakte

PERS 6/221378
Tanzer, Kurt
Bestandsbezeichnung
Personalunterlagen von Angehörigen der Reichswehr und Wehrmacht
Geburtsdatum
1.11.1920
Amtsbezeichnung/Dienstgrad
Leutnant
Unterlagenart
Personalakte

Junker

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Michael

Thank you for the praise, much appreciated.

Marquardt stated to David Williams that when he was shot down on 1st May 1945 his flugbuch was with him, and went down into a river with his aircraft.

Post mikrofilms the only concrete evidence of Marquardt claims is a flugbuch of another pilot in his Staffel. There are about four(by memory) that he was witness to, and bless him he even numbered them, to give this a reliability text he also witnessed some of Marquardt's 1944 claims covered by the mikrofilms, and they are a complete match 100%, he is also the guy who mentions Tanzer.

KBT papers cover 1945, usually only high scoring pilots are mentioned by name, Marrquardt would qualify, but those I have only cover sectors of the front where Marquardt was not. But it's quite possible that KBT papers will come to light and mention him....so fingers crossed.

Point is that we uncover more evidence as time goes on.

Keep well

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

I wonder if it ever will be possible to find out exactly how many of Heinz Marquardt's kills were scored in the Bf109.
I assume kills #1-97 were scored in the Bf109G, #99-109 in the Fw190A and #110-121 in the Fw190D.
But what about #98 ?

Have a nice Saturday,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good evening Junker,

does the file make a statement about his final score ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

That would be highly unlikely.

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Kurt Tanzer is said to have served with units called Jagdfliegerführer 6 and Jagdfliegerführer Ostpreussen between June 1944 and February 1945. Is it known if he flew the Bf109 or the Fw190 there ?

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi

I think Ostpreussen was under the direct command of JG51 i.e part of it.. Where ever he served after being wounded in May 1943(just in the hand) the mikrofilms should have picked-up any claims. As stated before there is evidence he later flew with IV./JG51, this evidence being he was mentioned in a IV./JG51 pilots flugbuch(Arensmeyer). I would say he was likely to have claims a few more Russian aircraft. It looks like perhaps he got 43, and a mis-type made it 143

Actually thinking about it JG51 in the East made very, very few claims over U.S aircraft, and the amount quoted for Tanzer is more than everybody else put together............it just cannot be, no matter how specific the numbers are !

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi,

These were higher headquarter units. See:

- https://ww2.dk/air/hq/ostpr.htm
- https://ww2.dk/air/hq/jafu6.htm

They were directing operations rather than flying them. A rough translation from Günther Josten's diary on 24 June 1944:

"I spend the night with Oberst Nordmann's Stab. I stay with Lt. Tanzer and get an insight into the work of the Jafü."

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Thanks Andrew

This does tie Tanzer to a place, and unit.

With regards to Marquardt Bernd Barbas has released online a biography about him.

Is strange that Tanzer takes so long to return to combat. As I remember he was shot in a hand, lost a lot of blood. But you would think that he would be returned to combat after a short break. Perhaps he had other wounds also. In 1945 seems that everybody came crawling out of the woodwork back to combat.

The absolute shame is that we didn't start the process of investigating Tanzer's total whilst some of his konrads were still alive.

Tanzer would be perfect to be set-up in a "fake information" game i.e a cheap Ritterkreuz, then died so early on, before real interest was being shown in the great aces. Maybe someday a flugbuch will surface !

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good evening,

Aders/Held say that Tanzer scored 111 JG51 kills, which leaves 17 or 32 of the alledged high total scored with Jagdfliegerführer 6 and Jagdfliegerführer Ostpreussen. It would be useful to know if they were scored in a Bf109 or an Fw190.

Does Mr Barbas mention the date of Marquardt's 98th kill ?

Best greetings from Switzerland, sincerely,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Michael

Your not listening. Tanzer had less than fifty confirmed claims. I have 9000 of JG51's claims, only thirty-five belong to Tanzer. He was latterly wingman to Karl-Gottfried Nordmann. Nordmann made no claims from 1943 onwards, his last claim(nr.75) was on 16th December 1942. The JG51 book which you are referencing from is pre-mikrofilm, thus outdated.

With Marquardt the first eighty-nine of his claims are found on the mikrofilms until 25th October 1944. Then the only references are from two flugbücher(E.Brunotte/E Arensmeyer) Arensmeyer states he was witnees to Marquardt's 121st on 25th April 1945, yet Brunotte states he was witness to a claim on 29th April 1945. Herr Barbas does not know the date of the 98th. But it would be on or just prior to 14th April 1945.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good morning Johannes,

I do but I want to explore the myth. Maybe one day we find positive evidence for the fake or typo but maybe we find a surprise. I'll keep my eyes open.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Trouble is Michael is that Tanzer was killed long before there was any real interest in our topic. Woidich "110" yet his own abschßßelist matches the mikrofilms exactly("82"), and he lived on until quite resent times. Guess he just showed no interest in our little hobby. Many of these pilots did not have a happy time, and thus just tried to forget the war The source of the "Woidich myth" was Hans Ring.
But it can come from many sources, from the pilots themselves even, then there is the points system in the West, a whole myriad of different ways the numbers false in number have become fact for us all.

John Foreman stated "Our books work only if you disbelieve everything that came before, then it makes perfect sense", but basically try to believe nothing without evidence !

The trouble with Tanzer is his Ritterkreuz, it would imply a more substantial "total", basically he got his Ritterkeuz for services as a wingman. Erwin Laskowski is the same, Ernst Obermaier states forty-six total, of which twenty-one in the West, and fourteen "viermots", yet his true total is fifteen, of which five were in the West(all "viermots". Now with Lastowski I have his actual flugbücher, which match the mikrofilms exactly, he clearly makes down confirmed or otherwise, yet the Ritterkreuz for just fifteen confirmed claims ! But forty-six is very specific, the myth came from somewhere, most unlikely from himself !

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

I believe that for example Herbert Rollwage's 44 viermot kills stem from somebody misreading the "1" in his 14 viermot kills as "4" which happens easily in handwritings.

Have a nice evening,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Michael

A good example. Let's just say that Rollwage did show a post-war interest in our subject/hobby, it's hard to say how he would rectify the typo that became myth.

Keep Well

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good evening Johannes,

yes, and Person X who misread the 14 for the 44 might have simply added the 30 that make the difference to the 72 known claims (66 confirmed and 6 unconfirmed according to your research). Thereby he might have created the myth about a Rollwage total score of 102.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

John Weal, in the book Jagdgeschwader 51 'Mölders', gives the number of 68 victories as Tanzer's final score.

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good morning Ferreira,

thanks for the useful hint.
Weal even categorizes him as KiA, maybe because he died in military service, although in peacetime.

Have a good Thursday,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Bernd Barbas suggests somewhere between 35 to 143 victories for Tanzer.

Lt. Kurt Tanzer, * 1.11.20 in Moskau, EKM ? , DKG 2.8.43, RK 5.12.43, ab 12.3.45 Staffelkapitän, 35 - 143 Abschüsse, 723 Feindflüge, + 25.6.1960.

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good morning Ferreira,

thanks for checking.
Does John Weal, in the book Jagdgeschwader 51 'Mölders' give a hint when Heinz Marquardt claimed his 98th kill ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi, Michael,
Sorry for my delay. There are only three mentions about Marquardt in the book, none of them about this victory.

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Ferreira,

thanks for checking. Marquardt claimed 97 or 98 Bf109 kills and 23 or 24 Fw190 kills, the kill in question being his 98th.

Meanwhile, I think that I have identified all aces with 100 or more Bf109 kills and all aces with 100 or more Fw190 kills. I can send you the lists if you want.

Does the book mention the dates for Bernhard Vechtel's kills #92-99 ?

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi, Michael

There is no mention of Vechtel in Weal's book.

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Ferreira,
thanks for checking.
Best greetings from Switzerland,
Michael