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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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says the 8th was recalled |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
My doubts were well founded. You have just made a brilliant demonstration. Thank you and congratulations Martin and Nick...
Regards Jean-Yves Lorant |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Very welcome, Jean-Yves. Glad to be of help
By the way, your JG 300 history is a favourite in my collection. I am privileged to have a 1st volume signed by Hajo Hermann |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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Jim |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Is there any hint or informed speculation that these late-war over-claims, and many like it from other well-known pilots, were encouraged and sanctioned by the Luftwaffe propaganda and press corps for morale purposes?
I believe the above might be a very likely explanation for this situation. Bronc |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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The instances Martin has revealed is that Dahl was claiming victories on days when the US Bombers had not even flown a mission. To me, that has a ring of post-war embellishment to it, rather than the efforts of Propaganda Merchants.... |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Hi Guys
Leistungsnbücher, who produced them?, was it the pilot himself? Dahl's book matches his Leistungbuch, Ernst Obermeier seemed to have a copy, thus we have all been expecting Dahl to be claiming many late war aircraft...…..as John Foreman has always stated "once published it's cast in stone" i.e it becomes FACT. However there is no evidence apart from Dahl's own. If as the researchers amongst us have stated that he "overclaimed", then perhaps he wouldn't be above making the 1945 claims up. Though I must admit that having the rank and title he had at the end, I'm not sure there was anybody to question him if he did actually officially make these late overclaims. I am saying that an egoist such as Dahl might have just written his own Leistungsbuch even post-war! Sad thing is that Walter Loos who is the one witness we could have asked is no longer with us. Regards Johannes |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
It all depends if the Leistungsbuch was signed. Normally the unit filled them with the data. But all LB I have seen were "signed off" by the unit. Of course in the final weeks/month of the war the claims were not signed off anymore.
John |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Hello!
He was the only one who flew the new Do 335, a fighter with one piston engine and one turbo-jet engine! (WHAT?) This happened in Februar 1945 at Rechlin! Wahlter Dahl "Rammjäger" Orion Verlag Heusenstamm 1961-page 98. This man rode also on a cannon-ball like Baron von Münchhausen! Herzliche Grüsse aus Oberschwaben, Wolfgang |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Good afternoon Gentlemen,
the other day a fellow mentioned there is a photo of Dahl's Fw190A-8 celebrating his 100th kill. Is that true ? Michael |
Strange case of Walter Dahl
Hi Michael
I have never seen or read anything about a photograph of Major Walther Dahl celebrating his 100th victory; however, there is a photograph of his Fw 190 A-8 "Blue 13" (W.Nr. 170 994) of the Geschwaderstab of JG 300 bedecked with a wreath celebrating his 75th victory. Perhaps that it the one you have in mind? This photograph appears on page 285 of Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug by Rodeike. Horrido! Leo |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
And that's including his unconfirmed victories according to Johannes' file. Photos of it can also be found in Jean-Yves Lorant JG 300 book.
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Good evening Gentlemen,
I found several photos of the 75th kill celebrations in Ralf Schumann's book. The fellow I mentioned told me there is an Fw 190A-8 photo on the occasion of Dahl's 100th kill but he admitted it might not be his but a plane chosen for the show. Can you tell me the number of his claims on 10Apr and 11Apr 1945 ? Cheers, Michael |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Hi Michael
Yes, another senior moment, seems that Dahl would be tied with Egon Mayer with twenty-seven "Viermots", though Mayer was with JG2 not all pilots with this Geschwader overclaimed, and I think that Mayer is okay(a project for claims/loses experts). Just who in reality did actually shoot down the most heavies is hard to say, but Werner Schroer was a honest guy with twenty-three. Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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What Johannes means with an "honest guy" is that he cannot see any pattern of trying to falsify his claims. There is a lot overclaiming by the "honest guys" as well, on ALL sides. Many years ago, I listened to a TV interview with Schroer and he came out as very, very honest in my mind. Cheers Stig |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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have you noticed that this website http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mayer.html indicates only 26 Viermot kills for Mayer ? The kill that is different from your book is #84 (5Nov43). Have a nice Thursday, Michael |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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I know perfectly well what Johannes means. I acknowledge the outstanding work that he has done checking the German victory claims microfilms and acknowledge the very good work that his aces biographies represents. However, on the basis of evidence, I am inclined to disagree with him on Schroer being an overly-honest pilot, particularly when it comes to claims against Viermots: 4.11.42/121 B-24 Liberator Between Sollum and Benghazi Halverson detachment? Overclaiming? Can't find an attibutable loss 5.5.43/1500 B-24D Liberator NW of Marettimo Overclaiming, no losses this date 9.5.43/1310 B-24 Liberator 1km E of Capo Gallo Appears to be overclaiming, several were damaged this date but on a later raid OR, IF A MISIDENTIFICATION/MISATTRIBUTION OR OTHER ERROR: B-17F 42-5147 “Old Ironsides” damaged by fighter and collided with 41-24415 (both of 414th BS, 97th BG. Both crews all safe except one man baled out MIA). One other attributed to flak with crew all KIA, one forcelanded after Flak hit and 21 others lesser damage attributed to Flak 11.5.43/1214 B-17 Flying Fortress 25km S of Marsala @ 3000m Overclaiming, no losses this date 18.5.43/1345 B-17 Flying Fortress 50km NW of Trapani @ 4500m Overclaiming, no losses 21.5.43/1121 B-17 Flying Fortress 35km S of Marsala @ 7000m Overclaiming, no losses 25.5.43/1117 B-17F Flying Fortress 40km NW of Marettimo @ 2200m Losses attributed to fighters include B-17F-25-BO 41-24576 of 341st BS, 97th BG, 1/Lt. William Albright and 7 others safe, 1 WIA and 1 MIA. 49th BS, 2nd BG had 42-29638 damaged and forcelanded at Bizerta. 2/Lt. William J Valentine and six safe, three WIA. Possibly to fighters: B-17F-30-DL 42-3174 "Thunderbird" of 416th BS, 99th BG, Capt. Robert E L Goad and crew all KIA 347th BS had 42-29489 "Persuader" and 42-29490 "Axis Ass Ache" both damaged, crews safe 31.5.43/1444 B-17F-25-VE Flying Fortress WNW (300 deg) of Trapani @ 100m (Kampe, Kapp and Buschek also claimed) Only loss was 42-5831 "The Virgin" of 32nd BS, 97th BG. 1/Lt. Victor J Lewin and six others safe, two or three (sources vary) KIA 15.6.43/0823 B-17F Flying Fortress 2km W Favignana @ 3600m No mention of any B-17 losses. Overclaiming 11.7.43/1320 B-24 Liberator into the sea 25km S of Crotone @ 5500m Overclaiming, no losses to fighters (only loss was due to an accident) 16.7.43/1300 and 1315 2 x B-24D Liberators SW of Santeramo in Colle/WSW of Bari 11 claims for just three losses in total: 42-40649/73 of 514th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Samuel D Rose and eight others baled out POW, one man KIA 42-40236 "Fyrtle Myrtle" of 513th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Charlie G Hinson and six others KIA, 3 POW 42-40110/53 "Pink Lady" of 513th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Roger Smith Jr and four others POW, 1 returned and 3 POW 23.7.43/1410 B-17 Flying Fortress 20km N of Stromboli Overclaiming, no losses 6.9.43/1108 B-17F-35-VE Flying Fortress HSS S of Echterdingen/E of Geislingen (N of Neu Ulm) @ 6000m Attributed by some sources as 42-5942 "Sky Shy/Wenatchee Special" of 563rd BS, 388th BG. Pilot named M Bowen. 1 KIA, 1 DOW and 8 POW. Legitimate victory 24.5.44/1140 and 1145 B-17G-20-BO Flying Fortress near Wittstock Likely claimed against 42-31534/LN-N "Shilaylee" of 350th BS, 100th BG. 1/Lt. Francis J Malooly and crew all POW (came down at Goericke, 19 miles SW of Wittstock) Some of the absent claims I have yet to attribute to losses or determine as overclaims But in any case, I hope I have presented acceptable evidence as to why I disagree with Johannes' belief that Schroer might be a contender for the top destroyer of real Viermots, and why I disagree that he was an overly honest claimer as some of his non-Viermot claims are equally questionable ...and I really don't think it matters how honest he happened to look in television interviews. It's evidence that decides. On the basis of evidence, I don't think he was overly honest. Nick |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Nick
Judging honesty in a man without ever meeting him in person is difficult. From your answer I can only suppose you never did (neither did I). All fighter pilots in the Med area overclaimed tremendously when the Fortresses and Liberators appeared, meaning that everybody was dishonest if your method is to be used. There was a whole lot of wishful thinking involved in these claims, no doubt about it! Taking on a pack of four-engined bombers took a lot of courage and the number of claims can equally be interpreted as how many combats he was involved in. I don't intend to bicker with you about Schroer's honesty or not. I am satisfied that Johannes finds him by his measument to have been just that. My answer to you was simply because I did not know if you knew Johannes way of thinking or not. I suggest we leave it at that. :) Cheers Stig |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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No problem, but I have found some of his claims against Curtisses and Hurricanes to be equally unfounded and so I remain puzzled as to how and why Johannes makes statements about pilots' honesty and everyone just accepts it, free of any real evidence. No need to argue or bicker, just present evidence. Back up what you're saying, pure and simple. |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Werner Schroer
Happy to accept any correction or addition, just a partial list.... 1st claim 19.4.41/1100-1245 (error?) Hurricane W of Tobruk 274 sqn. W9296 of P/O H J Baker baled out POW and V7811 of S/L J H Lapsley DFC forcelanded, WIA. Schroer is known to have been involved in strafing the wreck of V7811 2nd claim 25.6.41/1420 Hurricane S of Sidi Barrani DAF. Appears to be overclaiming 3rd claim 8.7.41 DAF. Believed these were actually claimed the previous day against 73 sqn, 5 losses in total. V7802 of F/L Aidan Crawley POW, Z4173 of F/L P O V Green POW, Z4649 of P/O S J Leach KIA, V7757 of P/O R W K White KIA, and M9197 of Sgt. G A Jupp KIA 4th claim 19.7.41/1817 Hurricane ("P-40 Tomahawk") NE of Ras Asaz 73 sqn. W9270 of P/O Reynolds shot down and Sous Lt. Albert Littolf's plane damaged (Franzisket and Werfft also claimed) 5th claim 21.8.41/1820 Hurricane NE of Bardia 229 sqn. Only known loss was P/O Peter John Horniman KIA (Foerster claimed some time beforehand) 6th claim 29.8.41/1810 P-40 Tomahawk NW of Sidi Barrani AM493 of 250 sqn, P/O Clive Robertson "Killer" Caldwell, damaged but returned safely. (AHOTMAW gives AK493) 7th claim 14.9.41/1555 TacR Hurricane I S of El Hambra 451 sqn RAAF. F/O W D "Paddy" Hutley returned safely and V7485 of Sgt. Rowlands WIA 8th claim 30.5.42/1405 P-40 Kittyhawk I NE of Bir Hacheim 3 sqn RAAF, either F/L Andrew William "Nicky" Barr (returned) in AK889 or Sgt. Colin Shaw MacDiarmid MIA-KIA in AL153. - This one said to be "Nicky" Barr (Rudi Sinner inflicted the other loss) 9th claim 10.6.42/0749 Hurricane ("Curtiss P-40") 5km W of Bir Hacheim 3 and 213 sqns. 73 lost BN370 of F/L T P K Scade WIA (awarded a DFC later), 213's other losses were BN159/J of Sgt. D H Jackson KIA and BN562/F of F/O J A Sowrey safe (versus 8 claims, of which one is attributed to Marseille) 10th and 11th claims 15.6.42/1806 and 1811 2 x Curtiss P-40s NW of El Adem No matchable allied losses 12th claim 23.6.42/1440 10km S of Sidi Omar 274 sqn Hurricanes. Overclaiming, no losses 13th claim and 14th claims 26.6.42/1140 and 1144 Hurricane and Curtiss P-40 SW of Mersa Matruh Was this 238 sqn, Sgt. Lawrence-Smith? 15th claim 26.6.42/1610 Curtiss P-40 SW of Marsa Matruh Possibly Sgt. Carlile of 260 sqn 16th and 17th claims 2.7.42/0700 and 0705 2 x Curtiss P-40s SE and E of El Alamein These appear to be overclaims, no matching losses 18th and 19th claims 3.7.42/1440 and 1447 2 x Hurricane IIs S of Imayid, SE of El Hammam 73 sqn, 2 losses: BN546 of Sgt. G H Hill KIA and BN538 of F/S H W E Packham safe. 33 sqn also involved, suffered no losses 20th claim 3.7.42/1450 P-40 Kittyhawk I SE of El Hammam AK920/GA- of 112 sqn. Sgt. Donald Jeffrey Birchall White, baled out and evaded capture. 21st claim 4.7.42/1840 P-40 Kittyhawk SE of El Alamein AK852 of 112 sqn. Sgt. J B Agnew. Badly damaged, pilot safe 22nd and 23rd claims 6.7.42/1145 and 1148 2 x Curtiss P-40s (Rosenberg claimed as well) 20km SW of El Alamein 2 sqn SAAF. Overclaiming, only one loss: AK970/C of Lt. A D Allen Cat II damaged 24th and 25th claims 11.7.42/1605 and 1610 2 x Curtiss P-40 ("Spitfires") 10km SE of El Alamein 2 and 5 sqns SAAF. 2 sqn lost ET1020(?)/B of Lt. Rupert Alan Durose KIA and ET912/H "Pinkie IV of Lt. L C H Hope slightly damaged. 5 sqn lost AK392 of Capt. K R Coster WIA-POW and AK382 of 2/Lt. Lionel William Rapp KIA whilst AK439 of Lt. Lindbergh WIA, AN451 of 2/Lt. Hinton WIA and AN394 of Maj. D V D Lacey DFC were all badly damaged. 2 sqn also had ET530/G of Maj. J D W Human forcelanded in Allied lines on the return flight 26th, 27th and 28th claims 13.7.42/0957, 1002 and 1005 3 x Hurricane IIs Overclaiming, all losses were in the evening 29th claim 14.7.42/1015 SW of El Alamein Likely 260 sqn. 3 losses: F/L W R McKay MIA, P/O J A Maclean and Sgt. N E McKee both safe. Serials not known (Glaeser and Schoefbeck also claimed) 30th claim 16.7.42/1830 Curtiss P-40 SW of El Alamein AK537/S of 5 sqn SAAF. Lt. C Sommerville. Aircraft badly damaged, pilot safe (Rosenberg also claimed, so this could be viewed as overclaiming) 31st claim 17.7.42/1825 Hurricane IIB ("Curtiss P-40") W of El Alamein P296/U of 238 sqn. S/L Richard George Arthur Barclay KIA 32nd and 33rd claims 8.9.42/1245 and 1250 2 x Spitfires (one was actually a P-40) Deir-el-Tarfa area AK625 of 3 sqn RAAF. Sgt. K H Freer forcelanded in a minefield but safe. 145 sqn apparently also lost a Spitfire in this engagement, no details known 34th claim 13.9.42/1725 P-40 Kittyhawk I Possibly AK716 of 112 sqn. Sgt. J H Morrison crashlanded safe, aircraft destroyed by fire 35th 36th and 37th claims 15.9.42/1140 3 x Curtiss P-40s 260 sqn. Other, unidentified squadrons possibly involved. There don't seem to have been any losses 38th and 39th claims 15.9.42/1645 and 1650 2 x Curtiss P-40s El Alamein/NW of Deir-el-Tarfa 112 and 250 sqns, plus 3 and 450 sqns, RAAF. 3 sqn lost 41-36599/EV345 of P/O Jack Donald and EV322/CV-I of Sgt. Gordon George Scribner KIA whilst P/O Keith Kildey and Sgt. Ken Bee (WIA) both had their planes damaged. 250 sqn lost P/O Thorpe and Sgt. Strong. 450 sqn lost Sgt. Peter Ewing POW 40th claim 15.9.42/1703 Spitfire El Alamein area Sgt. Young said to have been hit by flak but it was probably a Bf109. 450 sqn lost Sgt. Ewing POW 41st claim 16.9.42/0925 Curtiss P-40 S of El Alamein (Schoefbeck claimed as well) 3 sqn, RAAF. Overclaiming, only one loss: Sgt. Woods, WIA returned to base 42nd claim 20.9.42/1633 Curtiss P-40 8km SW of El Alamein 4 sqn SAAF. EV316 of Lt. T B Milne forcelandedand returned the next day, AK795/L of Lt. R B McKechnie crashlanded WIA and ET971 of P/O J D Howard POW (Schneider and Keller also claimed, so these were legitimate victories 43rd claim 21.9.42/1630 Spitfire N of El Hammam 92 sqn. Overclaiming, no loss 44th claim 30.9.42/1030 P-40 Kittyhawk? ("Spitfire") near Abu Dweis Possibly a Kittyhawk of 112 or 250 sqn. Overclaiming, no losses 45th claim 2.10.42/1540 P-40 Kittyhawk NNE of Deir-el-Tarfa 3 sqn RAAF and 112 sqn. Overclaiming no losses (Schoefbeck and Gruber also claimed) 46th claim 9.10.42/0925 Baltimore II ("Boston") NE of El Daba AG975 of 223 sqn. Sgt. B V Ekbery, Sgt. W E Bates, Sgt. E R Moss and Sgt. W R Johnstone all POW, attributed to flak by the British 47th and 48th claims 9.10.42/1615 and 1620 Spitfire and Hurricane El Daba and Bir el Abd 14 losses by WDAF this day. They include: 4 sqn, SAAF lost Lt. Shulz (Schulz?), 2sqn SAAF had two Kittyhawks badly damaged. 3 sqn, RAAF had P/O Clabburn attacked by 5 Bf109s and Sgt. Holloway (Canadian with 450 sqn) shot down and POW. 5 Sqn, SAAF lost Lts. Thornley and Murdock. 250 sqn lost P/O Rogerson and F/O Tribken's machine was damaged (said to be by MC202) as were 3 others. 49th claim 20.10.42/1412 Hurricane ("Curtiss P-40") SW of Deir-el-Tarfa 238 sqn. P/O Ormerod's machine known to be damaged (versus 3 claims in total) 50th and 51st claims 23.10.42/0800 and 0830 2 x P-40 Kittyhawk ("P-46") NE of El Alamein Overclaiming? No matchable losses 52nd claim 24.10.42/0825 P-40 Kittyhawk NE of El Alamein Enemy unit uncertain 53rd claim 24.10.42/1645 Hurricane SW of El Alamein Enemy unit uncertain - 33 sqn definitely in action this day in any case 54th claim 26.10.42/1310 Curtiss P-40 W of El Alamein 112 sqn, losses were P/O Drake and FR263/GA-X F/O Keith Ronald Gardener (who was KIA). One of the serials lost this day was P-40F 41-14009/FL337, crashlanded near LG 21 after being damaged by Bf109s 55th 56th and 57th claims 27.10.42 3 x Kittyhawks Quotifiya – El Daba 64th and 65th Fighter Squadrons with Spitfires from 601 sqn. No losses, but Hurricanes from both 33 and 213 sqn were also involved losing F/S S G Brooks and BP398 of S/L R M Lloyd (243 Wing) plus P/O Gardner (of 33 sqn top flight). Sgts Bates and Marcus had their machines damaged 58th claim 29.10.42/1225 P-40 Kittyhawk ("Spitfire") S of El Alamein 2 sqn SAAF or 260 sqn. 2 sqn suffered AK568/V damaged and EV166 of Lt. John Graham Hunter Wilmot KIA was lost. 260 sqn lost 41-13760/FL223 of unknown pilot, believed downed by Bf109s 59th claim 30.10.42/0920 P-39 Airacobra SSE of El Daba Probably a misidentified Spitfire. EP643 certainly missing presumed shot down by Bf109 this date. F/O Howard James Phillips MIA-KIA 60th claim 4.11.42/121 B-24 Liberator Between Sollum and Benghazi Halverson detachment? Overclaiming? Can't find an attibutable loss 61st claim 16.11.42/1520 Curtiss P-40 S of Tecis Overclaiming, no attributable losses 62nd and 63rd claims 2 x B-26 Marauders? ("Beauforts") Believed by some sources to be 14 sqn B-26A-1-MA Marauder Is reported missing on 15.2.43 (….why the discrepancy in dates??) one was 41-7377/FK150, P/O Colin Carl Truman RAAF and crew all MIA. The other was FK142, forcelanded in Turkey with crew interned in Ankara. They do not appear to have been the result of enemy action and the losses took place hours later at around 1600 BT Possible overclaiming 64th and 65th claims 29.4.43/1808 and 1810 2 x P-38F Lightnings S of Marettimo 82nd FG. 95th FS lost 2/Lts. Charles R Curran, James P Reding and William P White KIA. 2/Lt. Louis E Curdes and Robert L Wells both crashlanded. 97th FS lost 2/Lt. James F Conners III and Robert C Delp KIA 66th claim 5.5.43/1500 B-24D Liberator NW of Marettimo Overclaiming, no losses this date 67th claim 9.5.43/1310 B-24 Liberator 1km E of Capo Gallo Appears to be overclaiming, several were damaged this date but on a later raid OR, IF A MISIDENTIFICATION/MISATTRIBUTION OR OTHER ERROR: B-17F 42-5147 “Old Ironsides” damaged by fighter and collided with 41-24415 (both of 414th BS, 97th BG. Both crews all safe except one man baled out MIA). One other attributed to flak with crew all KIA, one forcelanded after Flak hit and 21 others lesser damage attributed to Flak 68th claim 9.5.43/1340 P-38 Lightning 70km NW Cap San Vito @ 8500m Overclaiming, no losses of P-38s mentioned this date 69th claim 11.5.43/1146 P-38G-15-LO Lightning 60km NE of Cap Bon @ 6500m 43-2334 of 49th FS, 14th FG. Wayne M Chavis KIA. Last seen upside down with left engine on fire. Not seen to crash. Approx. 1200 hrs., 15-20 mi. SW of Marsala (Either Schroer or Clade – more likely – might have downed him) 70th claim 11.5.43/1214 B-17 Flying Fortress 25km S of Marsala @ 3000m Overclaiming, no losses this date 71st claim 18.5.43/1345 B-17 Flying Fortress 50km NW of Trapani @ 4500m Overclaiming, no losses 72nd claim 19.5.43/1342 P-38 Lightning 10km W of Marettimo @ 1000m 14th FG. Includes John L Woolford of 49th FS KIA around 1230 (turned into Bf109s to allow two crippled planes to escape), Robert B Benton of 48th FS KIA and Frank C Howk Jr of 49th FS KIA by fighters near Trapani 73rd claim 21.5.43/1121 B-17 Flying Fortress 35km S of Marsala @ 7000m Overclaiming, no losses 74th claim 21.5.43/1128 Spitfire 20km NW of Pantalleria @ 800m Said to be a USAAF machine (31st or 52nd FG?). No losses at this time in any case. Overclaiming 75th claim 25.5.43/1117 B-17F Flying Fortress 40km NW of Marettimo @ 2200m Losses attributed to fighters include B-17F-25-BO 41-24576 of 341st BS, 97th BG, 1/Lt. William Albright and 7 others safe, 1 WIA and 1 MIA. 49th BS, 2nd BG had 42-29638 damaged and forcelanded at Bizerta. 2/Lt. William J Valentine and six safe, three WIA. Possibly to fighters: B-17F-30-DL 42-3174 "Thunderbird" of 416th BS, 99th BG, Capt. Robert E L Goad and crew all KIA 347th BS had 42-29489 "Persuader" and 42-29490 "Axis Ass Ache" both damaged, crews safe 76th claim 31.5.43/1444 B-17F-25-VE Flying Fortress WNW (300 deg) of Trapani @ 100m (Kampe, Kapp and Buschek also claimed) Only loss was 42-5831 "The Virgin" of 32nd BS, 97th BG. 1/Lt. Victor J Lewin and six others safe, two or three (sources vary) KIA 77th claim 7.6.43/0644 P-40 Kittyhawk 5km N of Pantellaria Overclaiming, no losses at this time 78th and 79th claims 10.6.43/0926 and 0927 2 x P-40s SSW of Granitola Torreta Overclaiming, no losses at this time 81st claim 15.6.43/0823 B-17F Flying Fortress 2km W Favignana @ 3600m No mention of any B-17 losses. Overclaiming 82nd claim 11.7.43/1320 B-24 Liberator into the sea 25km S of Crotone @ 5500m Overclaiming, no losses to fighters (only loss was due to an accident) 83rd and 84th claims 16.7.43/1300 and 1315 2 x B-24D Liberators SW of Santeramo in Colle/WSW of Bari 11 claims for just three losses in total: 42-40649/73 of 514th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Samuel D Rose and eight others baled out POW, one man KIA 42-40236 "Fyrtle Myrtle" of 513th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Charlie G Hinson and six others KIA, 3 POW 42-40110/53 "Pink Lady" of 513th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Roger Smith Jr and four others POW, 1 returned and 3 POW 85th claim 23.7.43/1410 B-17 Flying Fortress 20km N of Stromboli Overclaiming, no losses |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Hi Nick
Don't seem to be any South African aircraft, by memory they seemed to fly P-40's during 1942, do you have South African loses? Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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A quick CTRL-F search of the text reveals nine instances of the acronym "SAAF" |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Back to the original topic.
Back to Dahl. Were there any Viermot claims by Dahl in the 29Mar-12Apr1945 period ? |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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coming back to the original topic, it appears that Dahl had 27 "official confirmed" viermot, making him the top pilot in this list. Mayer follow him with 26, not 27 as his victory #84 (05/Nov/43) was in fact a P-47 not a B-17 (according to O.K.L. Fighter Claims on Microfilms via Tony Woods). Flavio |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Good evening Flavio and Johannes,
I'm interested in that Mayer claim, too Kind regards, Michael |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Hello FalkeEins,
nice to hear from you. Can you tell me how many kills Konrad Bauer has scored in JG300 ? Have a Pleasant Wednesday, Michael |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
er..no. Sorry Michael. Having made an assertion I've looked at Bauer's record a little more closely - there are big gaps. Just about every source agrees with his total of 57 including 32 Viermots although I can't actually find more than about half of that Viermot total....just goes to show how the same old figures get repeated over & over.
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Good evening FalkeEins,
these are some Konrad Bauer scores mentioned in the books:
Have a nice weekend, Michael |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Michael Knusel
answer to your question regarding the exact score of K. Bauer is detailled on page 201 of JG300 chronicle Vol. 1 (by JY Lorant and R. Goyat) Enjoy the reading ! Dom |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Hi Guys
I have had the fortune to look at the last page of Walter Loos's flugbuch basically flights from 6th March until 30th April 1945. Over this period Dahl states that Loos was witness to nine of his claims, however Loos was not airborne in any of the nine cases, also I cannot see a signature signing-off Dahls Leistungsbuch, actually who outranked him to sign it off? However Dahl does mention 133 confirmed claims in his own publication, therefore I believe the Leistungsbuch is probably his own fiction, prior to his own flugbuch running-out he probably would be guilty only(sorry I am not trivialising his fraudulent claims) of overclaiming, yet at some point he just seems to make-up a whole rap-sheet of additional claims, I would think this would probably start when he becomes General der flieger and just gross abuses of his authority. Probably he didn't know that claims records would not be around to contradict him, possibly just a coincidence that this helped keep his secret safe for three-quarters of a century. I would think also the Walter Loos didn't even know about his name being used as a witness. Surely Dahl must have therefore have ben the worst unofficial over-claimer as opposed to Walter Nowotny as the worst official over-claimer, and frankly I still don't know how he did it at the end, he would be the only guy claiming with the Staff, so no sharing the fraud like he did earlier with Gerhard Loos and Anton Dobele. I would really like to know how he did it, guess it's too bizarre that he could have abused his status as Kommandeur to somehow self witness, would love to see a few of his last abschussemeldung. Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Good evening Johannes,
that's a disgrace. Red Baron, there Konrad Bauer discussion goes on over there: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...uer#post258344 Michael |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Quote:
Regards |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Hi Alfred
Actually I am now believing that Dahl wrote his Leistungsbuch post-war. To say the document is a "fake" is probably not true, it's real in the sense that it's really Dahl's original fiction. There were two other pilots names Dahl used as witnesses a Leutnant Meyer and Oberfeldwebel Bohnenkamp, guess if we can prove behaps that these guys were killed before having their names abused then that would be great, and we are assuming the name used was Walter Loos, but I am 99% sure this is the case. I am in agreement that it is a disgraceful abuse of Dahl's position, he would have known that the destruction of Luftwaffe documents was ordered at the time, but not how far in reality it actually went. The Leistungsbuch fiction he had written probably must have occurred before 1961, hopefully somebody can confirm it is in Dahl's handwriting, though I guess he could have got anybody to write it! As to any future biography on my behalf of him, as previously stated I have been warned-off in mentioning any fraudulent claims(so like to point out the honest ones), or mention of any pilots honesty in a bad way, however these were not even fraudulent claims just fictional claims, so without adjusting the status of any fraudulent claims he made prior to 1945, I guess I could list the post General der flieger claims as fiction. Hope this doesn't put other General der flieger's in bad light, Galland and Molders did not indulge in such a practice of authority abuse. In fact I think the position carried a "combat flying ban" i.e Molders, Galland and Gollob were all banned from further combat, therefore in theory ALL of Dahl's post General der flieger appointment claims should in my opinion be regarded as fiction...……...makes you wonder how he got the position in the first place, actually rumour has it that Gollob was not as honest as his predecessors. Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Good morning Johannes,
Dahl clearly assumed that there would never be such a dedicated historian like you. A definite proof for his 1945 kills being a postwar fake would confer the top ace title for that calendar year to Günther Josten: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...379#post258379 Have a good Wednesday, Michael |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Hi Michael
Hope I'm not proved wrong, but I believe both Joachim Brendel and Gunther Josten to have been honest, as Dahl's were not even dis-honest claims but post-war fictional claims, then Josten and Brendel would be tops. Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
Johannes, I am inclined to agree that Brendel and Josten were very good:
Guenther Josten 3rd claim 8.6.43/1913 IL-2 Sturmovik Slobodan (PQ 54863) @ 200m 614 ShAP. Includes Kapitans A Smirnov, P Astapenko and A Kovgan, M/Lts P Varapayev, A Gamynin, V Kramar, N Chebotaryov, G Maltzev and A. Rezinkin, Lt. I Kosmachev, St. Serj E Saburov and Serj. G Sorokin. Orel-Mzensk 4th, 5th and 6th claims 10.6.43/1916, 1921 and 1925 3 x IL-2 Sturmoviks Bryansk airfield 62 and 312 ShAP. 62 ShAP lost Mladshiy Leytenants Anufriyev and Popov emergency landed back at base. 312 ShAP lost Mladshiy Leytenants Ivliyev and Komarovsky also emergency landed back at base 8th claim 10.7.43/1125 IL-2 Sturmovik Eisenbahnknie Orel (PQ 63587) @ 300m 2 GShAD. Details pending 9th claim 10.7.43/1130 Pe-2 Eisenbahnknie Orel (PQ 53664) @ 400m 3 BAK. Details pending 10th claim 12.7.43/0546 IL-2 Sturmovik Nowosil (PQ 63233) @ 200m Day's IL-2 losses include Vasily Ivanovich Borzilov of 667 ShAP KIA 30th claim 3.8.43/1520 La-5FN ("LaGG-5") PQ 54 445 @ low altitude 13 IAP, 201 IAD, 10 IAK, 2 VA. Overclaiming? No losses mentioned 37th claim 14.8.43/0600 IL-2 Sturmovik Kharkov-Poltava (PQ 51847) @ 200m 66 ShAP, 2 VA. 4 losses. Details pending (Oskar Romm claimed 2 and Wolfgang Ohl claimed 1 of the others) 63rd and 64th claims 7.9.43/1610 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks Bagonova – Felipovo Railway 70 GShAP, Anwar Khamidovich Mustafin and Alexey Dmitrievich Zhitenev (both POW), pilot Zaichikov KIA but gunner Sergey Andreyevich Barlet baled out POW. Pilots Stukalin and Aliyev both failed to return. Mustafin died in captivity, Barlet later escaped 74th and 75th claims 15.9.43/1205 and 1250 2 x La-5s Smolensk sector 1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. 1 VA's La-5 losses include Ml.Lts . Petr Fedotovich Kovaletov, and Viktor Dmitrievich Semenov plus Lt. Ivan Vladimorovich Stadnichik and St.Serzhant Ivan Alekseevich Mironenko of 522 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK all KIA 79th claim 17.9.43/1050 Pe-2 Rusinezy @ 2500m 1 VA or 3 VA. 587 BAP suffered KLAVDIYA "KLAVA" YAKOVLEVNA FOMICHEVA shot down WIA this date 81st claim 17.9.43/1350 La-5 Jselo @ lowest altitude 1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. 1 VA's La-5 losses include Ml.Lt. Vasilii Ivanovich Vlasov of 522 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK KIA 83rd and 84th claims 5.2.44/0900 and 0902 2 x Bostons 57 BAP. Losses include CO of 1AE, Ivan Ivanovich Steba and crew all KIA. Plus pilots Alexander Grigorievich Kalmykov (and crew KIA), Lt. Nikonov, Lt Rud (HSU, shot down for the 4th time), Lt. Gadyuchko and CO of 2AE, pilot named Yakshin 97th claim 26.6.44/1145 P-39 Airacobra Was this St.Lt. Vladimir Georgevich Serov of 159 IAP KIA? One source says 68 IAP 106th claim 20.8.44/1240 IL-2 Sturmovik 570 ShAP, 231 ShAD, 2 ShAK definitely engaged by Fw190s this day but there appear to have been no losses. 618 ShAP lost crew of Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Grigorievich Shovkoplyas and Serzhant Nikolay Ivanovich Martynenko KIA this date 122nd claim 12.9.44/0921 P-39 Airacobra Was this the Yak-3 of Podpolkovnik Alexei Borisovich Panov HSU, OL, 2 x ORB, Order of A Nievskii, OPW 1st class and ORS of 67 GIAP, KIA? 123rd claim 18.9.44/1345 B-17G-80-BO Flying Fortress Warsaw area (PQ 03685) @ 3500m One loss, from 568th BS, 390th BG: 43-38175 (was it named "I'll be seeing you"?) Lt. Francis E Akins and 7 others KIA, 1 POW and 1 evaded capture (Also claimed by Kurt Dombacher, slight overclaiming) 167th and 168th claims 22.4.45 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks S of Stettin Were these from 47 ShAP? They lost Starshina Aleksei Timofeyevich Vasil'kov listed as KIA this date -------------------------------------------------- Joachim Brendel 6.7.42/1925 MiG-3 Was this Lt. Stepan Ivanovich Tsarevskiy of 27 IAP KIA this date? 9.7.42/0420 MiG-3 Was this from 519 IAP? Lt. Nikolay Alexandrovich Smirnov (AE CO) KIA this date 18.1.43/0802, 0805 and 0809 3 x Pe-2s 2nd Eskadrilya, 202 BAP, 263 BAD, 1 BAK, 3 VA. Six losses: No. 6/115 of Lt. M V Orlov KIA, Lt. P G Slobodyan and Serzhant S I Filonchik baled out POW; crew of Serzhants P A Teplishchev, A I Golovlev and S E Vilkov; No.3/104 (Tail No.15) of Lt. B S Kardapoltsev, Mladshiy Leitenant A K Bondarenko and Serzhant A I Kozhbakov all baled out over Lake Karataj, one crewmen died on the way down and the others were KIA on the ground (in a gun battle with Germans trying to take them POW?) crew of Lt. Aleksandr Vasilyevich Shemyakin, Lt. N G Prikhodko Serzhant V F Pavlov (fate not specified) No. 19/104 (Tail No.18) of Serzhant A P Sozinov, Lt. T M Shapovalov and Serzhant V K Kalinichenko at least one crewman apparently evaded capture, other two KIA; crew of Serzhant Viktor Viktorovich Chirov, Ml. Lt. V T Gaevsky and Serzhant F I Mikheev (Jennewein claimed 5 as well) 9.3.43/0727 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. This was likely Mayor Prokorov as he was first to go down. Bellylanded 8 km south of Zalegoshch, he returned to his unit on the 13.3.43 9.3.43/0732 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. Other losses were S-t. Mikhail Aleksandrovich Kuznetsov, St. S-t. Vasiliy Ivanovich Ivlev, S-t. Egor Egorovich Ekimov and S-t. Aleksandr Vasil'evich Pomazkin all MIA (Klaus Dietrich claimed one and Guenther Schack claimed two) 6.5.43/1330 IL-2 Sturmovik 41 ShAP, 299 ShAD. 15 losses (remainder to flak, only one crew returned) (Herbert Epphardt claimed one, Josef Jennewein claimed 5) 7.5.43/0505 and 0515 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 58 and 79 GShAP, 2 GShAD (only 1 aircraft returned: Kapt Parshin and Snr Sgt Matveev crashed near Novosil). Known losses include Lt. Mingalev of 79 ShAP. Greatest losses to fighters appears to have been by 58 GShAP (Epphardt and Bareuther claimed two each) 28.5.43/1124 La-5 Known to be engaged against 160 IAP. I am awaiting further details on this one 8.6.43/1911 and 1912 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 614 ShAP. Includes Kapitans A Smirnov, P Astapenko and A Kovgan, M/Lts P Varapayev, A Gamynin, V Kramar, N Chebotaryov, G Maltzev and A. Rezinkin, Lt. I Kosmachev, St. Serj E Saburov and Serj. G Sorokin. Orel-Mzensk sector (Loeber, Josten and Ziegenfuss also claimed) 10.6.43/1937 Yak-1 122 IAP, two losses: Maj. Tzagojko damaged, bellylanded behind German lines and Mladshiy Leytenant Nepokrytov MIA/KIA. Additionally 162 IAP lost Starshin Seluka MIA/KIA as well. (These three losses are accounted for by Brendel, Schwarz and Haase’s claims) 6.7.43/0539 Boston III 8 GBAP, 57 BAP, 745 BAP/221 BAD of 16 VA (Central Front). 16 losses for the day 8 GBAP lost 7, 745 BAP lost 6 and 57 BAP lost 3 Bostons all up. 6 are attributed to fighters 7.7.43/0820 Boston III 745 BAP lost 3 Bostons this day and this was almost certainly one of them 9.7.43/0541 and 0544 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 299 ShAD. Ml.Lt. Gerasim Petrovich Zadorozhnyy was attacked by 7 Fw190s and there were other losses (I am awaiting further details…) 15.9.43/1705 Yak-9 1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. Day's losses include Lt. Dmitriy Kudryavtsev of 86 GIAP KIA , Ml.Lt. Yurii Vasilievich Gromov of 263 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK KIA. 149 IAP lost Evgenii Nikolaevich Klimov KIA (plenty of scope for this one to be a legitimate victory, therefore…) 17.9.43/1043 Pe-2 587 BAP suffered KLAVDIYA "KLAVA" YAKOVLEVNA FOMICHEVA shot down WIA this date (possibly by Brendel, Josten or Lindner) 12.10.43/1120 Yak-9 Morning's Yak-9 losses in Orsha sector include Ivan Chernii of 18 GIAP, 303 IAD, 1VA baled out after combat with Fw190s but KIA by German infantry (Brendel, Vechtel or Grumme likely shot him down) 13.10.43/0855 Pe-2 128 GBAP. 4 losses: Gv.Ml.Lt. Aleksey Pavlovich Simenskoy safe and Gds. St. Lt. Ivan Isaevich Prokorenko MIA (both attributed to Flak), Gv.Lts. Pavel Sergeevich Kukushkin (forcelanded WIA after fighter attack, POW a year later) and Alexei Kuzmich Barinov (POW, escaped 1944) 24.6.44/1036 IL-2 Sturmovik mH (Bareuther claimed one as well) 946 ShAP, 196 ShAD, 4 ShAK, 16 VA had an encounter with Fw190s this date, claiming one shot down for no losses. Do these claims actually pertain to that encounter? 30.6.44/1750 La-5 ("LaGG-5") Possibly 67 GIAP, 273 IAD, 6 IAK. Lt. V P Alekseev forcelanded WIA (Losigkeit and Wever also claimed La-5s during the course of the day, I haven’t managed to pin down the loss to a specific claim yet) 29.7.44/1005 Yak-9 Possibly Kapitan Vladimir Gerogievich Shchegolev (14 kills + 3 shared), HSU, OL, 3 x ORB and OPW 2nd Class of 162 IAP, KIA over Bialystok 14.8.44/1722 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly Lt. Fyodor Ivanovich Rytov and Serzhant Andrey Egorovich Ershov of 618 ShAP, KIA near Augustow (Loeffler and Eichel-Streiber also claimed during the course of the day and again, I cannot pin the loss to a claim yet…) 20.8.44/1242 IL-2 Sturmovik mH The day’s combats are a little confusing here as well: 570 ShAP, 231 ShAD, 2 ShAK definitely engaged by Fw190s this day but there appear to have been no losses. 618 ShAP lost crew of Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Grigorievich Shovkoplyas and Serzhant Nikolay Ivanovich Martynenko KIA this date 25.8.44/0714 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly 658 ShAP, 299 ShAD. Kapitan I P Smyshlyaka shot down and Mladshiy Leytenant N V Vichkapov damaged but made it home over Vyshkuva area. (Heinz Busse also claimed) 22.9.44/1027 A-20 Boston III 1 GMTAP VVS-KBF. Losses include St.Lt. Mark Ivanovich Zhilenkov KIA, Lt. Aleksandr Fedorovich Baranov, Lt. Thepermiaks (?), Gv.Ml.Lt. Mikhail Petrovich Permyakov and Ml.Lt. Sergei Petrovich Pudov all KIA (there were 4 other claims…) 20.2.45 Yak-3 Said to be from Groupe Normandie-Niemen, 1 VA. Lieutenant Pierre Bleton. POW, escaped and returned |
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
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when did Brendel score his kill #156 ? Cheers, Michael |
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