Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Tony, ref the DB603 numbers in the pics.
The 2842 data plate looks 100% BUT, it could be transposed. You would have to look carefully at the original engine stamping points to be sure.
Both the stampings on the alloy casting are a little strange. They look slightly modern and fresh. The "AA" from the dataplate is strangely rewritten as A2.
Especially in the light of the 2826 stamp, I suggest that the only way to be certain about those numbers would be examination of the original id stamps, there are about 50 locations on each engine. However, that ain't going to happen! Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

I did not have room to post an image of the gearing on 2842 once the nose case was removed. At least two of the gears are hand etched 2842. I will look at other images I have to see what else I can extract.

And I have a close up of the dataplate and they are definitely the same stamped letter 'A'. In the letter 'A', the right vertical is nearly straight up while the left slants over to it.

Tony

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Thanks Tony. Yes, the data plate looks original but, I meant that it could have been from another engine. Although engines were rebuilt and parts could have been exchanged, the basic ID of an engine is the crankcase, the largest single component. I suspect that it is impossible for me to be certain without a partial examination of the engines, and that is not going to happen (I saw them there as a visitor about 9 years ago). I do think that it is possible that damaged/used/overhauled or, on-production bombing damaged/reclaimed or, post-war assembled from several engines are possibilities. I do not aim to cast doubts here, these are just observations. Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hello,
From our old cases...
Emil uestionable - should be hispan, but the desired number of the plane was never found (It's was "Frankenstein").
I wonder what the factories produced these motors?

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hello Kirche,

DB605 WNr.35475 was a standard A-1 produced by the Henschel-Flugmotorenbau GmbH, Kassel (producer code hsr)
DB601 A-1 WNr.63742 was produced by Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH, Genshagen Kreis Teltow (producer code hsq)

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Tomislav, Thank you very much!
Best regards,
Kirill

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Rasmussen and Tony, thank you for your very informative contributions!

Regards,

Dan

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Really useful list, thank you for shearing!
In fact the upper mentioned picture of Bulgarian DB 605 is almost the single clue we have in our effort to identify the plane (thanks Denes). So any help is appreciated!

I confirm the conclusion, that Gyor made 109s were originally equipped with 00400xxx-series engines.

And I attach a little list of spare engines, delivered to Bulgaria.

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Another DB605 in the NASM collection is 25898. No dataplate, but in the stamping on the block ( similar to the images I posted of the DB603s above ) is a 'B' then a space followed by an 'R7' and another space followed by '3456'. The white painted 25898 B is also on the side of the block.

The stamping looks like this 25898B R7 3456

There is no aircraft associated with the engine.

Tony

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...cAAOSwHghczxUX


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/MVcAA...UX/s-l1600.jpg

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Fw. Buchener (Karl?), II./JG.54
11 .08. 1942 Bf 109G-2 W.Nr. 10388

Pilot - POW (Russia)

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Look at the box in the picture i posted a little up. That could explain the R7 3456 number

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Many thanks again Matti!

Here are two more DB605 engines that have survived and I have worked on and I have run both these engines in 109's! :)
First DB605A-1 77563. Captured in N.Africa '42/'43. Returned to UK. Fitted to Bf109G-2Trop 10639.
Next, the only running DB605D 011101639. Found stored in '80s. Restored and fitted in Han's Dittes Bf109G-10 rebuild.
Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-Lu...frcectupt=true


Motor-Nr-21-126



https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-8AAA...5Z/s-l1600.jpg

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi everyone!
Just another DB605A identity with manufacturer to add to the jigsaw.
I have a genuine alloy identity plate that is from an unknown recovery.
Here are the details:
Gerat-Nr 9 605 A 1
Werk-Nr 35404
hsr

The numbers and hsr are stamped into the metal. I estimate that this was a Henschel-Flugmotorenbau GmbH, Kassel built motor and the number would fit approximately into the Bf109G-2 series. Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Finally since I have room to post, here is the front end of DB603 01602842 with the nose case removed, undergoing preservation and prior to assembly for the He219. You can visualize etched 4 digits on the top of the two gears 2842. The upper one is somewhat difficult to distinguish as 2842 due to the scrolling and almost appears to be 2839 but if you study it closer you will see the 2842.

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Thank you for posting the pic of the reduction gear housing Tony! Yes, the numbers electro-etched on those bearing components do show the last 4 digits of the engine serial 2842 IMO. The question of the 2826 stamp on the case adjacent to the ID plate remains open. In my experience, re-allocated components on the DB engines had the inappropriate number or part of the number lined through and, the new engine number stamped. I have usually seen this on overhauled or repaired engines. The engine component numbering proceedure applied to nearly all components. Small components often only had the last 3 or 4 numbers and on steel parts, this was often electro etched. Fit tolerance and assembly position was marked on all size-fitted parts. I suspect that that crankcase will also have it's number stamped on the front top area, above the reduction gear housing in this photo, but I can't make it out and, as carefully matched parts all the main bearing caps will probably be stamped with the full engine number.
Overall, I can imagine circumstances where this engine crankcase was re-allocated a slightly later build number, but it is pure conjecture. Also, I really would expect the 2826 number to have at least the "26" lined through and the "42" stamped above. Random stamped numbers like that are unusual.
Thanks very much for posting these pics!


SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Indeed, thank you very much, Tony! Very interesting pictures!

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

In view of the considerable DB601/603/605 production data and information sources on this thread, can I please propose that this thread is added to the "sticky" list at the start so that, further contributions and updates can be easily co-located? Thanks

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Great to see this thread here as a Sticky! :)

Members, please donate your DB600/601,603,605 engine data. This thread can act as a great resource. Thanks

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Yes it is great to see this.

How about this for a new number: A589106 for a DB610.

I believe this is the one in storage at Garber from a He177. There are some instrument panels from the He177 on display at Udvar-Hazy.

Tony

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hello Tony,
Your new DB 610 number, A589106, is interesting because it is so different.
I have documented thirty-three DB 610 Motornummern so far. I have additional numbers that I have not yet entered.
Of these, 32 have MNrn. with 207 xxxxx prefixes. The exception is NiMo-built DB 610 B-1 MNr. 202 00022
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Thanks for posting your info about the DB610 gentlemen! I have many questions about 610 engine numbers and dataplates. The DB610 was constructed from two DB605 engines, paired through a common drive to a single propeller. However, the two DB605 component engines were not standard DB605's . Probably for harmonic vibration reasons of the coupled engines, the firing order was changed from 1,8,5,10,3,7,6,11,2,9,4,12 of a standard DB605 to 1,11,2,9,4,7,6,8,5,10,3,12 of a DB610 component engine. The cylinders are numbered right bank 1-6 and left bank 7-12, both bank numbering starting at the front. This firing difference was achieved with the same crank but, the camshafts, ignition harness and injection pump delivery plumbing had to change to match the changed firing order. Additionally, the righthand component engine had a complete mirror arrangement of supercharger, boost pipes with throttles and rear gearcase to accommodate its air inlet on the righthand side instead of the left side. The component engines were designated DB605W and DB605X for left and right component engine. Now, this leads me to ask how the engines were identified in practice? The DB type numbers for the component engines were DB605W and DB605X. Were these component engines given ID plates with this designation and numbering within the DB605 series? I can imagine that they did because, a problem with a component engine might require that it be exchanged for another. Did the DB610 complete "engine" have a complicated data plate (maybe on the combining gearhousing?) that listed the component engines fitted and, with spare spaces for changes to the component engines? Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

A small mystery. What kind of engine was this one, identified as "V 17"?

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Denes,
I only see a written title "Flugzeug Werk-Nr. 13878 Motor DB 605 A-1 Werk-Nr. V17".
From this I would expect this would be the Bf109 13878 with the engine prototype DB605 V17. However, if this is correct, I think the caption saying DB605 A-1 V17 is a little unusual. A-1 identifies an A-1 production engine. I believe that the prototype engines were DB605 V?? , initial 0 series engines were DB605 A-0.

Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

The engine was not a prototype, it was a DB 605 A-1. The construction number was given as "V 17". The other engines in this list are identified with proper Werknummern, except for this one. That's why I sought the opinion of others, to solve this small "mystery".

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hi Denes,
The Werk.Nr V17 on the engine ID plate would be very unusual to see. Photos often show V engines with the V number painted/stenciled on the engine. However, I am not aware of any authentic photo's of V engines with their ID plates? I have tried to help with some info from a simple image of a typed caption with no other description or picture of the engine in question. I apologise if I am unable to answer your query. BTW, have you looked through the list of 744 odd DB601 and 605 engine Werk.Nr that Matti posted? Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hello to all!
I have been trying to analyse the fantastic list of 744 DB601 and 605 engines posted by Matti Salonen at posts #13 and #19 on page 2 , Thanks Matti!
It is quickly apparent, even from the early DB601, that the engines have a wide range of numbers. I have decided to try and correlate these and fit the listing into a structure. For this stage, I am working on the DB601 listings as these are relatively easy to ID engine type from the Bf109 type and, these DB601's have the 5 digit numbers without complication. The data from Matti shows about 238 engines in the DB601A, N and E production. Although further DB601 types were produced, I consider that the spread of batch numbers would roughly incorporate the other versions and the Bf109 use would be the dominant user of the DB601. The 238 odd engine sample is AFAIK a random list and represents approx 1.25% of DB601 production. However, the numbers available to count here are still considerable and, given the random spread, seems a reasonable sample but, obviously all engines are not listed and the statistical accuracy is not absolute.
The data in the table progresses chronologically. The engine numbers start in blocks and, although this looks random at first glance, it can be seen that the way the numbers fall, reflects the way that the data was recorded, possibly from losses, and makes sense.
There appear to be very few obvious errors in the recorded numbers.
I deduced that the Block numbers were most likely in allocations of 10,000. I saw this through the rough sorting of the data. The Blocks are not all complete and, where a further higher number is not recorded, I take this as the last production. However, where subsequent Blocks follow closely or sequentially, I deduced that these Blocks were complete. The engine numbering continues through the Blocks as the different engine versions came on production ie. DB601A, DB601N and DB601E.
OK, I will be back later today with the results! Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

To continue, Looking at just the first 15 entries in the listing for the DB601A for instance shows engines with numbers in Blocks 1xxxx, 2xxxx, 3xxxx and 6xxxx, all the DB601A Block numbers with listings in fact. The low xxxx Block seems strange. This xxxx Block might have included the DB600 production which was mainly at Berlin Marienfelde (Werk 90) with 1,184 engines and Genshagen with 690 engines according to BIOS. This would still leave approx 8,000 available numbers in the xxxx Block. However, these sub 1xxxx numbers hardly appear, I can only see two possibles in this Bf109 listing, one of those is a repeat of the A/C number (7184) and probably an error, the other (2179) is shown as a DB601N which have no other low numbers but, there are many DB601N examples in the Block 2xxxx such as 21705 and so 2179 might be an error. Also, in the Bf110/Me410 listing there is 1295 and 6882. Now, 1295 should fall in the DB600 production (just 1,874 engines). I have seen a crashed DB601A which was built with DB600 cylinderblocks. I have no better info on these sub 1xxxx numbers. The listing is almost devoid of them, whereas it should have a reasonable number. I suspect that the DB600 was built in the easy days of just 4 figure numbering of the DB600 in just two factories and so engine numbering was simple. The multiple Block system of engine numbers allocated to individual factories would seem logical and could have been introduced with the changeover to the DB601 production. It should be realised that the engine numbering was a considerable production workload and administrative task. The engine numbers were stamped and etched onto almost all engine components. Overall, I want to see if I can correlate the number samples from the listing with engine production numbers and, possibly, production factory.
Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

After working on some preliminary sorting, I felt that I could see several number Blocks from the very start of the data, 7 June 1940. The Blocks are; 10xxx-19xxx, 20xxx-29xxx, 30xxx-39xxx and 60xxx-69xxx. As I mentioned previously, I considered the engine types commonly associated with the Bf109 type that was recorded with the engine number in the listing. The process is a little laborious. I started with the DB601A and found the following by taking the start of the block and the highest number in it for the DB601A:
1xxxx Block 1,829.
2xxxx Block 1,285.
3xxxx Block 1,282.
6xxxx Block 6,143.
This gave a Total DB601A range of Werk.Nr. of 10,539.
Next, I repeated this process for the DB601N. Result 2,998.
Then I completed the process for the DB601E. Result 5,943.
With the DB601E I found that the 7xxxx Block had come into use as the 6xxxx Block had all been used.
The overall total for DB601 numbering from evidence in the listing came to 19,480 engines. This compares very well with the post WW2 BIOS report listing of 19,180 DB601 engines total production. However, as I said earlier, the accuracy cannot be absolute but I think the close figures prove the basis of the Block engine numbering allocation of the DB601 series.
Working through the Block numbers against the BIOS report figures for individual production plants showed good relation to the analysis. The breakdown came out as follows:
10xxx-19xxx is Berlin Marienfelde.
20xxx-29xxx is Niedersachsische Brunswick.
30xxx-39xxx is Henschel Kassel.
60xxx-69xxx and 70xxx-79xxx is Genshagen (with almost 50% of production!). Cheers

SM

Just to note, I think it is worth pointing out that the number range of these Blocks used amounts to a possible 50,000 engine numbers but, the analysis using the listing data has produced a very close figure to another source of engine production figures totaling just over 19,000. I think this proves that the system of Werk.Nr. allocation is similar to my model.

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

In the book "Messerschmitt Bf 109, The Yugoslav Story, Operational Record 1939-1953, Volume II", by Ciglic, Savic and Micevski, in the list of Yugoslav AF register of Bf 109G, page 188, for the two-seat Bf-109G YAF s/n 9943 had DB 605 V13.

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Thanks for that. These details are interesting, especially if there is an explanation and photo's of the plates. Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Further to my posts #68, 69 and 70, I have further considered the apparent lack of low numbers from a xxxx ( up to 9999) Block. If the first 2,000 or so numbers were allocated to DB600 production, this would leave still leave 8,000 odd numbers unused. I do not think I have the evidence for the use of these numbers in this data. 8,000 would be nearly 80% of DB601A production. Plus the fact that the other engine numbers already add-up to the known production of DB601A, and also the DB601 production figures of all types. There are no "holes" in the production numbers. Now, there could well have been some carry-on numbering after the DB600 production, possibly before the full scale Block numbering was introduced. Maybe numbers were initially split in 5,000 Blocks, Marienfelde with 1 to 4999 and Genshagen with 5001 to 9999 ? I simply have no information about DB600 engine numbering. Overall though, if more than a few DB601's were produced with low numbering, there are two points: First, the total engine numbers from the overall engine numbering data would show it and, secondly, the low numbered engines would appear in the data in a statistical ratio, but they don't. Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Just a general note. I am happy someone is looking, in details, at the German engine manufacturing and construction number sequences, as I feel this is a neglected topic, which should also be researched, not only the airframes. Thanks to all involved people, particularly to SM. I hope you will share your findings with us one day.

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Thank you Denes. It is great that Matti was able to donate his resource of 750+ Bf109 airframes and engine numbers. I am not sure if any better record exists. Due to the complex and convoluted way that the later DB605 and DB603 engines were produced, I am certain that examination of those records will involve some contradictions and questions. However, I do think that some similar patterns will be revealed. Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

For the next stage of my analysis I am considering the engine numbers and production of the DB605A and B series, including the AS and AM types, as far as can be deduced. This is a somewhat complex topic, working with approx a 1% sample of numbers. The period includes the complications of Allied bombing disruption, wide dispersal of production, possible Axis jumbling of engine numbering, the introduction of the DB605D series engines and the shortage of production data for 1945. One other complication is the effect of DB610 engine production. The DB610 was a "Double" engine, consisting of a pair of DB605 engines on a common reduction gearbox. To suit the vibration characteristics of the paired engine, the component engines have a different firing order than a standard DB605. Also, the righthand had a mirror image rear gearhousing and supercharger etc, to suit the air inlet on the RHS. Now, after the curtailment of the He177 bomber programme, some spare DB610 engines were rebuilt as DB605A or B engines. These engines retained their different firing order and they have distinctive red painted instructions on their cylinderblocks to show the revised firing order for the mechanics. I will lookout for any evidence of these engines in the data but, I do suspect that they were re-processed back into the numbering system and may not appear as such? I would be grateful if anyone has more info on the Ex-610 605's?
To start, I am going to review the DB605 production plants listed in the BIOS post war report on Mercedes-Benz. Cheers

SM

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

I would suggest to compile a table with ALL DB 605 engine manufacturers, their location, three-letter factory code and - possibly - the Werknummer sequence allocated to each of them. That would be a great support for further in-depth research.

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Hello,

I have compiled such a table with the known DB605 engine manufactures based on the collected engine data.
Here is what I have so far:

Niedersächsische Motorenwerke GmbH (NMW) "NiMo" (Braunschweig-Querum)
Factory code hss
Engine serial numbers:
2xxxx - A-1, B
20xxxx - A-1
002xxxx - A-1
112xxxx - D

Henschel-Flugmotorenbau GmbH (Kassel)
Factory code hsr
Engine serial numbers:
3xxxx - A-1
011xxxx - A-1, A-4, AM
0111xxxx - D-1, DB, DM, M

Donau-Flugzeugbau (Csepel-Budapest)
Factory code kwn
Engine serial numbers:
4xxxx - A-1
004xxxx - A-1, AM

Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH (Genshagen Kreis Teltow)
Factory code hsq
Engine serial numbers:
7xxxx - A-1
007xxxx - A-1, B-1, AM, ASM, AS0, ASM0, G
117xxxx - D, DB, DM, DM0

Steyr-Daimler-Puch A.G. (Werk Steyr)
Factory code bnz
Engine serial numbers:
9xxxx - A-1 unconfirmed
019xxxx - A-1
119xxxx - D, DB

There are many DB605 engines in the 1xxxx and 10xxxx range for which I can't confirm the producer. It could be Henschel-Flugmotorenbau GmbH (Kassel) because they continued to use the "1" in their serial numbers of the later produced engines or it could be Daimler-Benz A.G., Werk 40 (Berlin-Marienfelde) cuw because they produced also the DB601 in the 1xxxx range. When compared, the serial number ranges of the DB605 and DB601 producers mostly match which would led me to the conclusion that each engine producer had a designated serial number range which was later extended with a prefix (0, 00, 11..) corresponding to the new engine subtype (for example, all DB605 D engine have the prefix 11).
Of course, all correction and new additions to this data is most welcome.

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

This is exactly what I was referring to, Tomislav! Many thanks for sharing.
We can now expand and update this list, as info is/will become available.

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 

Thank you Tomislav,
I have deduced the same factory/engine code relationships for the DB601A-F so far. The 1xxxx block is, I think, Berlin Marienfelde Werk 90 but this has very few numbers in the data that I have, despite production of 1,184 DB600 and 2,762 DB601. BTW, Werke 40 was the Truck plant-although who knows if they made parts for the Aero engine Werke at times?
May I ask if your factory (the three-letter Hersteller) code info is rock solid? I don't have much independent cross-reference on those?
Thanks for posting your info, I am trying to corelate all my data independently and see how the 605 info ties in. Cheers

Best Wishes

SM