Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

A very special thanks to Michael "Nokose" Barrentine for this outstanding thread.

At last we are back to studying the history of aerial combat in a way that goes beyond worshipping numbers written next to men's names

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Thank you for a very interesting thread!


Peter

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Some time ago reduced losses of both parties (including damaged) for the first half of August, 1942 (it generally fights of Rzhev-Zubtsov):
Day - USSR/Germans
1 - 29 / 13 ______ 8 - 18 / 9
2 - 37 / 12 ______ 9 - 37 / 12
3 - 15 / 8 ______ 10 - 34 / 30
4 - 39 / 7 ______ 11 - 13 / 6
5 - 49 / 4 ______ 12 - 7 / 3
6 - 24 / 7 ______ 13 - 12 / 26
7 - 23 / 9 ______ 14 - 12 / 9
TOTAL: 350 / 155 - average per day 25 / 11.1 (medium 2.3 vs 1)
But many German losses partial and at the airport, so really find the aircraft about 5-7 vs 1

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Kirche, Did you mean the entire day or just this time period? Even though I did not find them mentioned in the reports, I did find the following for the 5 GIAP on the 3 August 1942:
Guards Mayor Boris Zhurin 5 GIAP while flying a LaGG-3 claimed a Me-109 (5) at Martyukovo. (His last victory claim)

Guards Mladshiy Leytenant Aleksey Luk’yanov 5 GIAP flying a LaGG-3 went missing in action in the areas of Novoye-Semenovskoye, Polunino, Vydrino, Starshevtsy.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Thanks Kirill

The problem is, however, I don't know anything about most of them and can only look at what Michael so far has written. And to me the 3rd clearly looks more "busy" than the 9th, since not only claims need to be looked at, but the number of missions as well.

Interesting statistics you provided as well! Thanks for that.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Michael,
I told, that in 10.36 (11.36 Moscow time) in the air not was aircraft 5 GvIAP:
4.20-5.35 - 5 LaGG-3 (leading gw.Stlt. Ibragim Bikmuhametov) - no fight;
5.10-6.20 - 6 LaGG-3 (leading gw.Cpt. Ivan Laveykin) - dogfight with 4 Bf-109 in Bahmatovо-Mishino at the height of 2000-2500. Shot downed 1 Bf-109 - attacked from the side-rear and top from a distance of 100-150 m - fell 2-3 km North of Gubino. The second Bf-109 attacked head-on from a distance of 200 m damaged - with a sharp decline and smoke went to Rzhev. The third Bf-109 attacked from above and from the side from a distance of 50-100 m damaged - with a decrease went to Rzhev. 1 LaGG-3 damaged in battle - forced landing in the Kurovo area (Anufriev ? - area Pavlovo?). No names
6.30-7.35 - 5 LaGG-3 (leading gw.Stlt. Piotr Grechnev) - in the area of Deshevka at an altitude of 1000 seen 2 Ju-87 and 1 Ju-88. Seeing the fighters German planes with a decrease in went to Rzhev.
11.45-12.45 - 5 LaGG-3 (leading gw.Stlt. Piotr Grechnev) - in 12.00 4 LaGG-3 bombed Startsevo with heights 2000-1200 in dive (8 AO-25). At 12.30 at an altitude of 2000 dogfight 5 LaGG-3 vs 4 Bf-109 - on bends on both sides. 1 Bf-109 shot down by Grechnev (rear-side attack from a distance of 50-100 m). The enemy aircraft fell near Timofeevo, the remaining Bf-109 came out of the battle with the climb in the direction of Rzhev. Downed 1 LaGG-3 (Lavrenko) - on surveillance crews he jumped out on parachute jump in area Deshevka (Lavrenko 04.08.1942 came back and reported that: during a battle with 4 Bf-109F he rammed one Bf-109F. Enemy aircraft dropped 3 km East Zalkovo. The plane Lavrenko lost control - he jumped with a parachute, the plane crashed in the area Zalkovo. The fact of the RAM is confirmed by ground troops and other pilots from that battle.)
In this battle, could shoot down Leutnant Johann-Gottlieb Engel, only if he continued the flight for another hour and Zal'kovo and Deshevka is North of Rzhev (not Zubtsov, not 47822).
13.18-14.10 - 3 LaGG-3 - In the area of the troops covering fought (Mishino-Zybino) with several Bf-109 - the enemy attacked in pairs, and sought to divert 3 LaGG-3 in the direction from cover. LaGG-3's didn't pursue them. In the area of Borisovo-Zybino at an altitude of 200 fought with 7 Ju-88, 4 Bf-109 - as a result of battle damaged 1 Bf-109f, which with the decrease and the black smoke went to Rzhev. 1 LaGG-3 damaged - put the plane on the airfield Dary.
14.25-15.30 - 4 LaGG-3 - from the height of 1800-1500 bombing from the planning of the convoy in the area of Zhukovo (8 AO-25, destroyed: 1-2 cars, 2-3 carts)
15.00-16.00 - 4 LaGG-3 - was dive bombed enemy troops in the area Pleshevo (8 AO-25, result not seen)
17.35-18.45 - 9 LaGG-3 - was bombed enemy troops in the area Svinino (6 AO-25, explosions of bombs among the enemy trenches)
20.10-21.10 - 5 LaGG-3 - was dive bombed enemy troops in the area Startsevo (10 AO-25, explosions of bombs among the enemy trenches).
In the area of Chentsovo 20.35 at an altitude of 1500 m 8 Hurricane's from behind attacked 5 LaGG-3 - gave a burst of machine guns. Pilot Lukyanov after the attack 8 Hurricane's went to their territory with a decrease.
(157 IAP 256 IAD - 20.10-21.10 - 6 Hurricane's (Lt Ivan Ovcharenko) - support Il-2 - when approaching the target were attacked 6 LaGG-3 - after Ovcharenko came close LaGG-3 stopped the attack.)

Maybe I missed something... Don't know what the flight was lost Popkov, but he came back. Zhurin could bring down or damage the plane in 5.10-6.20 ?

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Stig,
I have not cited the statistics of claims - this is the data of the GKL and the Soviet operational documents 1 VA and 3 VA. August 3 was not the most intense, because 1 VA that day had a low activity - they were preparing for August 4 (the first day of the offensive Pogorelo-Gorodishche operation). Michael has not yet looked at the documents 1 VA - activity in the period 4-10 August is much higher - it's fights East, South-East of Zubtsov.
Activity 3 VA these days below, as the offensive in the North-West of Rzhev by August 3 as a whole choked and activity there will be in the second half of the month and in early September, when the second phase of the offensive. Without the analysis of actions 1 VA to speak about the level of tension in the area is not correct.
Best regards,
Kirill

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Michael (Nokose) was kind enough to allow the publication and research of his and Kirill Chekmarev work on the air war above Rzhev - Zubstov on the JG 54 website that previously appeared in this thread.

https://www.jg54greenheart.com/the-a...eptember-1942/

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

The article posted on Bob’s JG 54 site contains information not originally listed in this thread here on 12 O’Clock and even though I have no more to add there will probably be more going there. Kirche has enough information for adding another day in the future concerning the 7 August 1942. When that occurs we will let you know here.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Okay, I had intended to let this thread go but with the pandemic, I had a little time on my hands. I will start out with the 2 August 1942 and hopefully Kirche can return to add some more to this day with better records from the Russian archives.

2 August 1942
At 09:10 (MT) from the 264 ShAD was dispatched 2 Il-2 from the 235 ShAP led by Kapitan Pavel Natalich to perform a reconnaissance in the area of Rzhev. They were attacked by two Bf 109 during the mission and only one returned at 10:05 (MT). Kapitan Natalich would be listed as MIA on return. (Journal of Combat Operations 3 VA TsAMO F. 311. O. 0004495, D. 0070, L. 4 page 34)

The II/JG 51 would make a claim this day in that area and time period. Leutnant Ralph Furch of 5./JG 51 claimed an Il-2 (13) at 08:50 at PlQu. 47554. (JFV 9/II by J. Prien page 300)

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

2 August 1942
211 BAD had two bombing raids performed by the 128 BAP
12:46 - 13:36 (MT) 3 Pe-2 bombed targets in the area of Rzhev. At 13:10 (MT) [12:10 Berlin] they were attacked by 4 Bf 109.
12:53 - 13:45 (MT) 3 Pe-2 bombed targets in the area of Timofeevo. At 12:15 (MT) they were attacked by 2 Bf 109
There were no reported losses for these raids.
Journal of Combat Operations 3 VA TsAMO f. 311, o. 0004495, d. 0070 l. 4 page 36

The 2nd was strictly a battle of Bf 109s of JG 51 with the Soviet 1 VA and 3 VA. Which gruppe made these attacks is not known as no claims were made during these times.

Kirche is away from home doing work some where else but hopefully he will be able to add more on his return. So I will continue to keep this going with more information until that time.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

2 August 1942
The 211 BAD had a bombing raid conducted in the area of Rzhev - Dobraya at an altitude of 1500 m that ended at 16:30 (MT) by possibly a formation of 9 Pe-2 from 527 BAP. They were intercepted by Bf 109s from JG 51. Mladshiy Leytenant Rychahov claimed shot down one Me-109 at Kostritsy (18 km south of Oloyino). The formation as g group claimed shot down two Me-109, one fell in the forest 1 km west of Rzhev and the 2nd at Dobraya. The Soviet formation did suffer losses: Pe-2 of AE commander Kapitan Pavel Smirnov (MIA). Pe-2 of Mladshiy Leytenant Georgiy Belenikin (MIA) and the Pe-2 of Mladshiy Leytenant Kalcheev made an emergency landing 30 km southwest of Torzhok. (TsAMO f. 311, o. 0004495, d. 0052, l. 80 Operational Report of the Staff 211 BAD)

From the German side this attack seems to be the result of IV/JG 51.
Leutnant Ernst Weismann 12/JG 51 Pe-2 (52) 14:54 PlQu. 47583
Leutnant Wolfgang Böwing - Treuding Stab IV/JG 51 Pe-2 (21) 14:58 PlQu. 47564

Unfortunately, the claims made by the Soviets can not be confirmed, not because of lack of German losses in air battles this day but for lack of times and circumstances listed in J. Prien’s JFV 9/II. It would be helpful if anyone has these two concerning JG 51 losses, maybe you can add them to the thread.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

I have been working on the 2 August 1942 but will stray to another date but in the same Soviet Offensive Operation.

21 August 1942
The 211 BAD despatched 6 Pe-2 from 527 BBAP to bomb German artillery positions in the areas of Arkharovo, Shipulino and Roshcha, that are 2 km southeast of Rzhev. The Soviet bombers reported being attacked by German Bf 109 fighters at 10:27 (MT). In the ensuing air battle they claimed to have shot down a Me-109F at an altitude of 2500 m. The Soviets reported that the Pe-2s of Leytenant Filipp Pakhomov and Starshiy Serzhant Nikolay Tomko were reported as missing after the attack of the German fighters. Strangely, the Pe-2 of Serzhant Aleksey Van’kov was reportedly shot down by German AAA and came down on Soviet territory. Van’kov returned to his unit but would later perish in 1944.

From the German side from the records of 8./JG 51 listed 3 claims with the same time of 09:30 and location of PlQu. 47581.
Leutnant Hermann Lücke Pe-2 (3)
Gefr. Erich Holbein. Pe-2 (3)
Gefr. Alfred Wallys Pe-2 (1)

The only loss for III./JG 51 was caused by Soviet AAA.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

I previously ask about loss times for the Bf 109s of JG 51 for the 2 August 1942 but no responding replies. I looked through Soviet claims for that date for the Soviet 1 and 3 VA to show the problem.

Soviet 3 VA: shot down 26 Me-109, 7 Ju-88, 6 Me-109F, 2 Hs-126, 1 He-111, 1 FW-189, 1 Do-217. Damaged 2 Ju-88 and 2 Me-109.

Soviet 1 VA: 1 Me-109 and 1 Ju-88

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

I will once again put off 2 August 1942 and skip to another date.

15 August 1942
06:30 (MT) 2 LaGG-3 from 193 IAP were patrolling at an altitude of 1000 m to the northeast of Rzhev. They observed 30 Ju 88 approaching for a bombing raid. They singled out 7 Ju 88 and made 10 attacks with a distance of 300 - 400 m. From this group 3 Ju 88 left in damage condition smoking.

06:55 (MT) while patrolling at an altitude of 1000 m in the area to the northeast of Rzhev were 3 LaGG-3 from 193 IAP led by Starshiy Leytenant Shemendyuk. They were engaged by 6 Bf 109 in an air battle for 15 minutes before the Germans departed. The LaGG-3 piloted by Leont’ev was damaged but still made it back to their airfield. (Operational Report of the Staff 209 IAD TsAMO f. 311, o. 0004495, d. 0050, l. 106)

Unteroffizier Karl Klopp 6./JG 54 claimed a Yak-1 (2) at 05:58 at an altitude of 20 m at PlQu. 47534.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

15 August 1942
At 06:40 (MT) patrolling in the area northwest of Zubtsov were six MiG-3 from 122 IAP led by AE commander Starshiy Leytenant M. Ye. Korobkov. From the clouds dived 2 Bf 109 and shot down MiG-3 (# 3872) flown by Leytenant Yuriy Alekseev, which went crashing to the ground and his death at 4 km north of the village of Chichakovo. The two Messerschmitts then went back into the clouds.
Leutnant Hans Beisswenger of 6./JG 54 claimed a Yak-1 (81) at 05:47 at an altitude of 1000 m at PlQu. 47344.

I am going to stop at this point and any future information will be added in Bob’s webpage for JG 54 and I will have him post a link on being added.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Alekseev Y.B. https://airheroes.ru/lichnie-dela/al...orisovich-test
Place of death https://airheroes.ru/pamyatnie-znaki...rij-borisovich

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Hello,
10.12.1942 Hptm. Horst Riemann (Stab I./JG 51) - KiA - nordl. Ssytschewka: Jägerbeschuß, 100% - FW 190 A-3 WNr.2267 (Winkel +)

From the 203 IAD reports on combat operations for December 1942:
«10.12.1942 4 Yak-1 of 20 IAP during the cover of troops on the battlefield met 2 FW-190, who were chasing one of our fighters. Our group went to the rescue and engaged the enemy planes. One of the planes on the turn was attacked by major Kukin, after a long queue of guns and machine guns, the enemy plane caught fire and exploded in the air.»
...
«On the same day (10.12.1942) at 16.00 4 Yak-1 under the command of major Kukin covered the same area (above the text of the area of Khlepen), where they met two FW-190. Major Kukin suddenly got up from behind-from below to the wingman of them at a distance of 150 meters. At this time, one of the enemy aircraft noticed him and tried to turn around and leave. Major Kukin chased him and attacked from a distance of 200 m. The enemy plane with an abnormally working engine went to the West. Pursuit was impossible due to the attack of the second FW-190.
At the same time, at an altitude of 2500 meters, our group noticed two more FW-190s that attacked one of our aircraft. Our group hastened to his rescue. One of the enemy planes noticed this and began to go into a turn. Major Kukin coming from bottom side into the inner side of its bend long turn fired the enemy aircraft. The FW-190 caught fire and exploded in midair.»

Khlepen’ (Хлепень, Chlepen) http://etomesto.com/map-rkka_n-36-b/...09&y=55.961860
http://etomesto.com/map-atlas_osteur...09&y=55.961860

майор Кукин Иван Андреевич (major Kukin Ivan Andreevich, commander 20 IAP 203 IAD) (20.03.1910 — 1950-60th (?)) http://allaces.ru/p/people.php?id=17974

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

I sent an updated version of this article for Bob’s JG 54 website (He described it more as a research paper). He will be looking it over and see how to put it up there. It will contain new days and updated information. Bob will place a notification in the “link” section on getting it done.

I will send him later a similar “war diary” for the Soviet Volkhov Offensive from January-July 1942.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

The updated article is posted on the website.

The dates of August 2, 5, 7, 11, and 15 were added to the article. For September, Michael's research on Sep 4, 9, 11, 13 and 22 is presented.

I want to thank Michael and Kirill for their tireless work. Salute!

https://www.jg54greenheart.com/the-a...tember-1942-2/

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

I have recently sent robinoc my conclusions for several days of the Soviet Volkhov Offensive for January-July 1942. The German claims are as always “possible” as many times only the times of JG 54 can be factored into the claim. I have also added Soviet claims for that period, which are many more then I could record in such a short period. Not all I-18 and I-61 claims by the Germans were actually the aircraft listed in their scores. I could not find a lot of the Soviet 1 RAG and 1 UAG reports on line. Also many of the reports and journals of Soviet armies and units had gaps in days and months. So if you liked my previous posts, I hope that you will enjoy this article. Bob will post a link to his page when he reads over it and puts it up.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Thank you, a link please ?

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Mars, sorry I can’t provide a link as Bob has not got back with me yet. It is the same JG 54 website as the Air War Above Rzhev- Zubtsov was put up on but just not up as of yet. I will say there are a number of entry for Soviet losses by JG 54 that have no recorded matching claims, so maybe denied in some Flugbuch or just lost with Luftwaffe records. I will provide an example of what is written.

22 March 1942
In the morning hours the U-2 from 662 NBAP flown by Serzhant Petr Severov was listed as missing in action in the area of Novoselitsy.
From the German side in the records of III./JG 54 a possible match is found. Leutnant Friedrich Rupp of 7./JG 54 claimed a RZ (11) at 06:12 at Nowosswlitsci (Novoselitsy).

I put together as many claims as I could possibly find touching on a few of Nowotny, Hans Phillips among the worst claimers. A surprise for me was Franz Eckerle in his last claims of his life. So until Bob gets back with me it’s out of my hands.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

The link is on Page 6 of this thread.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Update on the fate of Unteroffizier Hermann Kübler of 3./JG 52 his Bf 109 G-2 13 497 lost by ramming on 11 September 1942 has been found between 2 - 22 July 2020. Unfortunately, the remains of Kübler were not located in the cockpit.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Mars, Robinoc has put up the link in the “Links” section concerning this article. I hope it is useful to you and others.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Thank you

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Hi

What documentation do you have for Günther Schack, I have a copy of his Leistungsbuch.

Rudi Meyer is closely associated with Maximillian Mayerl, and is witness to about half his claims, but at this exact time less than half of Mayerl's claims were being confirmed even though he had witnesses...usually Meyer, in fact Mayerl had five unconfirmed claims alone on 10th August 1942 !, others on 11th, 12th, 19th, 22nd and 24th of August.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Johannes, on Günther Schack the claims came from Prien’s JFV series and from the book “Alarmstart”, which are listed in the sources at the end of the article. Kirill verified the Soviet side from Soviet documents. This was the beginning of his career and I was kind of surprised but doesn’t mean that he didn’t get better later.

Sorry, that I didn’t get back to you sooner but I rarely view the threads here as other interests as of late.

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Hello everyone, I am not systematically comparing claims from German pilots with VVS losses as Michael does. Only in cases when we worked on some separate loss of VVS in this area and clarified the circumstances according to the documents of the other party. I sent some comparisons on the found wreck sites to Johannes. I can, if possible, look at the individual groups of claims and clarify how these individual air battles are reflected in the Soviet records.

Today, incidentally, I recalled the story of 2018, which confirms the claim of one of the mentioned Germans.
15.01.1943 - Seversky - 9./JG 51 - Lt. Mayerl Maximilian - nordnordwestlich Rshew (3766) - 12.08 at 1000m - claim 35

This application corresponds to the circumstances of the death of the Su-2 spotter aircraft from 35 OKRAE 3 VA and the entire crew of three (st.l-t Abusov N.M., l-t Brovtsyn V.N., l-t Pylaev A.V). Despite the cover of 7 fighters from 157 IAP, the Germans managed to take advantage of the mistakes of the covering group. First, one group of Germans tied one "flight" in battle, and already on the retreat from the combat area due to uncoordinated actions (turn in different directions), the second group of Soviet fighters lost their spotter, leaving a lone Su-2 against a pair of FW-190s. This was one of two losses of this type of aircraft in the area (the second was lost somewhat earlier by a separate squadron from 1 VA in the Karmanovo-Sychevka sector.

Best regards,
Kirill

Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov
 

Hi Nokose

Many thanks for your input.

About Schack not improving. Often guys who suddenly improve in my opinion basically have not, they have merely found a way of fixing the system i.e "over-claiming", often after a transfer, or loss of "enablers" they revert back to "forced honesty" and far fewer claims. I believe Schack was honest, he also received several wounds, and was burnt with his face and hands at the end of the war.

Kind Regards

Johannes