Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Presumably it was shipped to France equipped with its Sperry Aeroplane Stabiliser, where it participated in something called the "Concours par L'Union pour la Securite en Aeroplane" and took first prize, worth 50,000 francs.

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hi George,


Thanks again. Your response led me to:


https://www.helicomicro.com/tag/conc...-en-aeroplane/


Which presumably is the incident referred to in your first post.This proving the stability of the aeroplane and so winning the prize. Rather than my,upon considered reflection, rather 'barking' answer.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hi George. Am I right in thinking the "F" boats numbered C-1 to 5 were the ones re-designated AB-1 to 5 on 25/3/14 ? ( "A" = Curtiss, "B" = flying boat).
If so C-2 / AB-2 made the first catapult launch from a ship ( BB USS North Carolina) on 5/11/15; pilot was Naval Aviator no.11 Lt.Cdr. Mustin.
Lake Keuka was Hammondsport NY. where C-2 flew under a Sperry gyro auto pilot.



Clint -forgot to mention the JN-2s and -3s were assigned to the 1st. Aero Squadron ( ex-Provisional) for the Mexican flights.
Nick

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Nick

None of the eight JN-2s were accepted or paid for by the US Army.
To make some progress Curtiss accepted 19 Sep 1915 to rebuild the remaining six aircraft 41-45 and 48 to JN-3s. Since the wings was the only thing that differed, these six should be classified as true JN-3 from that point on.
As per Robert Casari two aircraft were destroyed the same day they took off on 13 March 1916 (no s/n mentioned) to fly into Mexico.
By mid April two more had been lost (again no s/n) and the wings from No 42 fitted to No 45 to keep the latter flying, leaving only three JN-3s in service.
No 43 was wrecked 19 April 1916 making No 45 and 53 the only two aircraft making it back to USA. Their "luck" was short lived since they were burned later in April, thus leaving not a single JN-2/3 in existence.

Can you by any chance fill in the missing gap for the remaining three aircraft when each one was lost, ie date vs s/n?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Not entirely

The C-1 was an E-boat, while the other four were F-boats.
The official US Navy's re-designation date was 14 March 1914 making C-1/C-5 AB-1/AB-5.
The AB-2 was destroyed 17 March 1915 during another catapult launch.

George

According to Casari the Sperry control "gadget" was taken out of the C-2 when it was delivered to the US Navy in October 1913 and was shipped to Annapolis where it flew for the first time on 2 Nov 1913.
He also says the C-2 was used from April 1914 to basically when it was w/o doing catapult tests in USA.
He makes no mentioning of any trials in France.
What was the involvement of the US Navy with these trials in France?
When did it move to France and when did it return?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Thanks Stig.
As I've found over time..........
41 = wrecked 19 March
42 = dismantled 15 April
43 = (burned)= 19 April
44 = crashed 16 April
45 = condemned NM

48 = wrecked 20 March
52 = force-landed 14 April
53 condemned NM
According to Lee Arbon the 8 (crated) JNs were transported by train to Columbus NM on the 13th then took off for Casas Grandes on the evening of the 19th with varying success; one returned, four only got half-way and three ran out of gas and landed in the dark.
A sign of future results.
Nick

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Wow Nick

Thanks a lot!!
Looks like Casari missed the actual departure date in his book. The way it is written it is easily interpreted as the evening of the 13th.
However it fits great with a departure on 19 March 1916
The two which were caught out in the head wind looks like No 41 and 48.
Maybe the latter was safe on the 19th but crashed the next day trying to catch up?
Great to have the exact date when No 42 was "slaughtered"
The other two lost in April must be No 52 and 44
No 43 (according to Casari) was lost due to engine failure so likely to have been burned when it crashed.

May I just ask who Lee Arbon is/was? Name does not ring any bells sorry to say....:o

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Sorry Stig, but I have no further information about the French adventure of Lawrence Sperry and the nature of the US Navy's involvement (if any).

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hmm, I see

May I ask, George, from where does the notion it was C-2 which was used in France?

The Sperry gyro was used in many Curtiss flying boats and it seems Curtiss was more interested in it than the Navy.

It seems odd to me that the US Navy should bail back an aircraft to Curtiss (and Sperry) when there were plenty of 'boats around at Hammondsport....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Stig, no. 43 force-landed near Chihuahua City and the pilot Maj. Herbert Dargue was lucky to escape from irate civilians; 43 was burned as a precaution.
Dargue was killed in a transport 5 days after Pearl Harbor, carrying important war plans. He had served on Corregidor 1912-13.

Arbon wrote a history of enlisted pilots in service, " They also flew, the enlisted pilot legacy 1912--1942". Very interesting story of a neglected group of pilots.
Nick

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Stig,

My information came from an article in the Summer 1975 issue of the AAHS Journal. The US Navy was very much involved as the C-2 was a Navy aircraft and the principal pilot for the tests seems to have been Lt. Patrick Bellinger. I think that is Bellinger in the cockpit of the e-bay photo.

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Aha Nick (thanks)

With regard to No 43, good to know the exact reason it was burned.

Thanks for the Arbon update. Many, many years ago I decided to stop buying books about people. It was a simple space saving measure and not because people are uninteresting. It is easy enough to see they are not, just look at us.... :)

George
Thanks for you source. Yes Bellinger was the pilot who basically flew all the Sperry test flight between 30 Aug 1913 until it was delivered to the Navy in October.

On the posted photo Bellinger is sitting in the cockpit on its right side (at least I think that is what Casari means). The man who is leaning against the aircraft seemingly with a steady grip of it is Elmer Sperry himself.

I have no idea why Casari does not mention the French adventure with this aircraft. A real puzzle....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are a variety of Curtiss JN-4 photos as follows:


Curtiss JN-4 124


https://www.ebay.com/itm/11504663773...8AAOSwJiBhaMs5

Curtiss JN-4D School of Photography


https://www.ebay.com/itm/17496864803...8AAOSwSkhhXyKu


Curtiss JN-4HT 38167

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26536417967...0AAOSwCo5ha3lc


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Curtiss flying boat being demonstrated to the Russian Navy at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/12499914012...MAAOSwNqdhjcSo


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

A known but never-the-less excellent photo.

It shows the first Curtiss F basically just after arrival to Sevastopol, where it was tested between 16 Sep to 5 Nov 1913. Even Glenn Curtiss was together with his men on this trip.

The photo I have (in the book American Hydroaeroplanes in Russia 1912-17 by Andrei Alexandrov) gives credit to T Darcey, but no doubt it was acquired by many collectors back in time.

Alexandrov (Darcey?) gives the following names from right to left:
S.O. Ochs
V.V. Utgof
I.I. Stakhovsky
C. Witmer or J. Cooper

Where Lt 'Pete' Goff comes from is a mystery. The back side of the photo does not mention him, while Utgof (Utgoff) is pretty clear, so maybe a mistake? He is not listed in the book and was not among the Curtiss team in Russia between 1912-17.
None of the others are identified, but Woodhouse seems to mention one (or both?) of the Russian Naval officers by name. Anyone who can read what it says? Dupont does not sound very Russian to me....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

The notes on the back of the photo state "Lieut Utgof at the wheel".

It may be just a coincidence but Lt Vladimir V. Utgoff was a US Navy PBY pilot in WWII.

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Curtiss Model F in Italy with John Callan at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/12500621017...4AAOSw1gJhlC7I


I assume based on Stig's comments on the Model F being demonstrated to the Russian Navy,that this photo may already be known. Therefore rather than provide seperate links to other John Callan related photos here is one link for them all:


https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item...allan&_sacat=0


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

No idea how well known (published) these photos from Woodhouse are.

The previous photo (in Russia) was probably taken elsewhere since the credit was different.

It seems Curtiss sold four of these flying boats to Italy while 24 more were built under license by Zari in 1915.

I don't quite follow why the present seller claims John Callan has to be the one dressed up in an Italian naval uniform. The individual looks Italian to me, while the rather more casually dressed individual beside him, fits more an individual like Callan.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hi Stig,


Thanks for the reply.


Personally, I'm undecided as to whether it is Callan or not in the uniform.Mauro Antonellin's Salvet Ubi Lucet has a section devoted to him,with among other things a photo of his pilot's licence from 1912. It could be the same guy,but the one in the Curtiss looks somewhat heavier. Could be good italian food I suppose.


It mentions 22.09.14 and his demonstration flight in the first Flying Boat constructed in Italy.I rather wonder if that isn't what the ebay photo shows.But ultimately unknowable I guess.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a nice photo of Curtiss Model F serial C-5 of the US Navy at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/40333717363...MAAOSwdU9buhl0


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Curtiss JN-4 C104 of a Canada based training squadron at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/29475838097...EAAOSwWaFh7GLQ


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Clint this is 81 CRS (large serial, rudder stripes, letter "T").


Nick

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hi Nick,


Thanks for the reponse. I'd hoped that you would come through on the unit marking.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a further photo of Curtiss JN-4 C104 of 81 CTS,as previously identified by Nick at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/29479220081...sAAOSwu75h-xVY


and an American machine number 163 with red cross markings at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/15483041715...gAAOSwwJ9h~xGY


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

In spite of what the seller says SC 163 was a JN-4B converted to an ambulance in 1918

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a nice quality photo of the Curtiss JN-2 serial number 43:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/18619356804...AAAOSwK4NlbTv5


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hello,


Another couple of Curtiss aircraft currently on ebay:


Curtiss H-16 A-853



https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186194922...IAAOSwe0ZlbmbO


Also Curtiss H-16 A-770 & A-781


https://www.ebay.com/itm/22587723299...MAAOSwehVlWP3t


But the bidding is closed on this one,so I guess the image may not be around much longer.



Curtiss N-9 A-369


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185885007...0AAOSwwRxkVmS3


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Clint

No 770 and 781 are both Curtiss H-12

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Cheers Stig,


Kinda annoying because H-12 is what I have on my spreadsheet.Age.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

We are all heading in that direction Clint....:(

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are several photos of Curtiss aircraft including JN-4D 3016.What is possibly more interesting is a photo of an aircraft numbered 731.According to Joe Baughers site http://joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1908-1920.html serial number 731 falls within a cancelled batch,assuming that is we're looking at a serial number,as it is quite possible that the actual blurred serial number sc***** is seen above the larger digits. The photos are here


https://www.ebay.com/itm/28609821587...Bk9SR8625qnOZA



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Hi Clint. The serial is over the side number, it looks like SC 414**. Possibly Love Field ?


Nick

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

Thanks Nick,


I'll defer to you on the location. I tend to agree also that we're looking at SC414**


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Curtiss Aircraft
 

If we assume the photos were taken more or less at the same time, we are looking at a time
frame of earliest ca Jan-Feb 1919 and probably not later than early 1920s.

Reason is that the JN-6HG SC 45238 was not ordered by the SC until 6 Aug 1918. The last 80 in the
ordered batch (of which 45238 was one) was delivered between Jan - March 1919.

An inventory list from Dec 1919 shows 45238 to be in service at Carlstrom Field having flown 115H 15Min
The same list says 3016 was at Rich Field (no stated hours flown)

The aircraft SC 414xx is read by me as 41427 or 41437. (very much a guess of course). By Dec 1919
SC 41427 was gone but SC 41437 was at Dorr Field.

No idea how long the Jennies stayed in place, but I am pretty sure they were together at some point

Cheers
Stig