Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

The number "10" is supposed to be 13815, an A-4, then a Mohawk IV, missing from Bourges re-assembly factory (where the color picture above as been taken after the German capture at the end of June 1940)

Beside, I recounted my list and it's seems right : 204 including BB924.

You are welcome Alex,
Olivier.

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hello Oliver,

Thank you once again for your help.

have a Great Day

Alex

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

For those interested in more images showing the restored Hawk, take a looksee at this page on my site...


Fade to Black...

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Based on the information provided here, such a shame that that aircraft has been "mis-reported" for so long and restored to "What-if' condition. Still a beautiful piece of work.

Or, is that data plate correct after all?

On the other hand, is that a real plate? Or a reproduction?

(I cannot remember seeing a piture of a Hawk 75 with a visable data plate)

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/Hawk759.jpg

See link below for more info.

HAWK 75 TO FLY AGAIN
Air Classics, Jul 2004

The Fighter Collection brings a nearly extinct aircraft back to life

Visitors to the USAF Museum can sec a restored Curtiss P-36A on display and, if you want to go a bit farther, there is a fixed gear H-75N Hawk on display in Bangkok, Thailand. However, in one of the most exciting restoration projects of this decade, a Curtiss H-75 Hawk is in the final stages of restoration to flying condition. This project will give the public a chance to see one of the most important early war fighters back in the air.

France was the best customer for the export version of the Air Corps' P-36 and an initial order for 100 aircraft was in France by May 1939. In service, the aircraft were numbered 1 to 100 and were issued to four Groupes de Chasse comprising I/4, II/4, I/5, and II/5. Hawk No. 82, the subject of the restoration, went to CG II/5 at Reims and was stationed at Toul during the Battle of France where the Hawks gave a good account of themselves against the Nazi invaders.

Surviving Curtiss fighters were ordered to withdraw to Algeria before the surrender of France and the remaining Curtiss fighter groups made the journey to Oran between 18 and 20 June 1940. France surrendered on 25 June. In Algeria, the armed forces came under control of the French Vichy Government which, in turn, was under the control of the Nazis.
Advertisement

The Hawks once again saw considerable action - fighting the British and then the Americans during Operation Torch, the invasion of North Africa. During this battle, 15 Hawks and eight French pilots were lost while at least seven US Navy Wildcats were destroyed. No. 82 participated in this turning point battle.

Surviving the war, No. 82 - along with 22 other Hawks - became an advanced trainer from 1946 to 1949 with the 4th Training Squadron at Cazaux in western France. Dropped from further use, the airframe was saved by Michel Pont who stored the plane until it was purchased by The Fighter Collection during the 1980s. With so many other projects, No. 82 was kept in storage until just recently.

The wing was shipped to New Zealand for restoration while the fuselage, tail, engine and prop, engine mount, and internal systems went to the US for restoration under the direction of Matt Nightingale. The completed wing arrived in the US during April and Matt and his dedicated team of restorers are doing a magnificent job : on what has to be one of the world's most unusual combat veterans - a fighter that fought for both sides during WWII. We will be featuring a detailed story on this machine in the near future.

Copyright Challenge Publications Inc. Jul 2004
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved






http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/hawk75st_1.htm



Blake Pickering’s photos of the Curtiss Hawk 75A-1 at the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino prompted me to dig out some photos I shot of the same aircraft back in November 2004 when I was in Los Angeles on a business trip.
The aircraft’s cowl was removed when I saw it, allowing me to get some some photos of the Pratt & Whitney R1830-SC-G and accessory area behind the engine. I also took a photo of the aircraft’s data plate. It reads:

TYPE H75A1
NO DE SERIE 82
NO FABRICATION 12881
(manufactured) 4 39

Details of the rivets and panel lines on the aircraft are also noteworthy on this immaculately restored aircraft.

As Blake said, this plane is one of the stars of the Planes of Fame’s large collection.
Delivered in April 1939 as one of 100 Hawk75A-1s ordered by the French, this aircraft, a genuine Armée de l'Aire combat veteran, was assigned to GC II/5 at Reims and fought in the Phoney War and the Battle of France before heading to Oran, Algeria, where it saw action against British and American forces.
Postwar, the aircraft was on the strength of the 4th Training Squadron in Cazaux, France from 1946 to 1949, then sat in a field until The Fighter Collection acquired it and eventually restored it for the Planes of Fame Museum.

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hello Steven,

I think it is not a shame that that aircraft was restored as an A1. I'm French and very happy to see the only Curtiss Hawk 75 in flight with french markings.
S. Grey is not an historian, and got false informations, which were "true" few years ago.
Nobody can reproach him something. He really sought to know the truth, and a few time ago, nobody knew which n°82 has been used in Cazaux. Nobody knew that the A1 became a Finnish Hawk. And nobody knew that the A4 used a P&W engine in Cazaux.

So the data plate (not an original one) cannot be correct, because it is not the right aircraft, and because A1 n°82 = c/n 12879.

Concerning the wings, the were not complete in the wreck, and nobody can be sure that it was the original ones, they could have been changed before 1949.

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Please do not misunderstand me. I love seeing the aircraft restored as an A-1. Truely a beautiful sight.

But like some some old dinosaur fossils that had been on public display, which had bones mix up (the head of one species was put on the body of another species) our understanding of the history of an aircraft can be most incorrect.

Getting the facts straight does not deminish the efforts of the restorers, it just makes us aware of the liberties they took. After all the Smithsonian national Air and spece Museum restored the Ar 234 to a "what if " scheme, because they wanted it to be more representitive of a late war aircraft. But the aircraft itself is beautiful, none the less.

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Yes , but i really think that they believed to have the A1 n°82.

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Let us be realistic. What Stephen Grey and his friends did with what was a wreck is just fabulous. There is no word "big" enough to praise him.
Now what about its disguise ? The fact that this a/c is THE H751 (A4) Nr 82 is irrelevant. It has been remotorized (in France) with a P & W and it looks for all world like a H75 so what was Grey's possibilities ?
- Having it re-remotorized with a Wright and have in hands an a/c of a model never used operationnaly by the Armée de l'Air ? or
- Keep it with its present motorization and have it restored and painted as a H75 which was widely used in action during the 1939-1940 campaign ?
Personnaly, I think that he did the right thing... And the result will honour, for years I hope, the memory of those countrymen of mine who lost their lives, flying this little America beauty.
What is more questionable but this is a Franco-French problem, how our stupid (to remain polite) administration did to let this hightly historical a/c leave the country ?

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hello Lucien,

I completly agree with you.
But i persist in thinking that when he decided to restore his Hawk, he thought his aircraft was really the A1.
He still believed it a few time ago, and i'm not really sure that it changed.

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

I recently communicated with someone who was at Chino, and I was left with the distinct impression that the aircraft is still being represented as an A-1 that saw action and that any "colors uncovered" were as they were in 1939/40.

Please understand, my only issue is that I would simply like to get the facts on this restored aircraft.

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

As far as I know, when he did try to identify his a/c, Grey was misleaded by a couple of self-elected French "experts"... renowed in this country for their constant lack of knowledge... and their pig-headedness when wrong. What couls be then expected ? But who cares ? I am pretty sure that Stephen Grey knows very well that his beauty is not a H75 but who cares ? Let us enjoy it, I mean for those who can. Personnaly I live too far from where the action is and I do not think that I will have the opportunity to see it. I deeply regret it

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hello,

Great Photos and grand to see the data plate.
Question - Were they built in sequence or not ?
Might a/c number 82 be 12881 and not 12879 ?

Indeed 12879 , X-881, Should have been a/c 82 by all accounts.
But if the a/c were out of sinc then could it be that
12881 was the 82nd a/c off the production line.
These things happened.

Also I think it is well reported that 12879 ws taken by the Germans and was passed to the Fins to become CU-568. She was involved in a crash on 1st July 1942.What happened after this, was she repaired or scrapped?
If indeed CU-568 was 12879 Then what happened to her ?

Is it possible that the wreck was sold off to the French for spare parts for their remaining few in North Africe ?

Or was 82 12881 and not after all X-883, 84.

Which ever she was she looks just great. Well done to all involved.

Thanks
Alex

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hello Alex
CU-568 was SOC 16.8.42 according to Keskinen, Stenman, Niska: Curtiss Hawk 75A P-40M (1975). I don't believe that Finns would have sold off the wreck to the French for spare parts. Finns have they own Hawk 75As to look after, after all it was one of their main first-line fighter types at that time even if LLv. 32, the user of Hawk 75As, was down to 12 CUs on June 1st 1942. In 1943 Finns bought 15 more Hawk 75As (ex-French) from Germans.

Juha

LATER ADDITION: CU-568 stalled in inverted position,went to a flat spin, hit the ground appr. 30 deg angle, was smashed and buried itself up to back bulkhead of cockpit into the ground. Pilot KIFA. This from Hyvönen's Kohtalokkaat lennot 1939 - 1944 (2001). So there were probably not very much useful left in the wreck.

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

(edited as this work is under publication)

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

(edited as this work is under publication)

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

My last point is about the work done by S. Grey.
This misidentification should not shadow the fact that she's an outstanding beauty and I'm dreaming sometimes at night that I could fly such a bird. This very kind and skilled guy is so lucky!
(I don't know him personnaly but every people I know who met him has said the same about his kindness).

I really hope that he won't crash her or being injured himself flying, as it would would be, in either case, a terrible loss for every warbirds lovers or historians. Let's just change this c/n to 13887 and pray that nothing like that would never happen and damage both of their skins.

Regards,
Olivier Bacca.

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

One question : If no Curtiss were on board SS Champlain when she was sunk, a fact which I will not argue because, as I wrote it previously, I did take this info from Cuny & Beauchamp's book, on which boat were they loaded and where were they assembled ?

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hello Sir,
I've got your e-mal Lucien, I'll drop you something in your wanadoo mail-box later today.

Regards,
Olivier.

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Alex:

I believe if you look up a few posts you will see a comment that the data plate is not original (apparently made to conform to the fiction).

I also would like to say that comment on the history of the aircraft is not criticism of the restoration. So relax. Just trying to separate fact from fiction. If we cannot try to determine the identity and history of this aricraft, then why bother with regard to any other aircraft?

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Lucien, I thought I had addressed this very point in my first post on this thread? If you mean those evacuated from St-Nazaire to Casablanca (still crated), I don't know for certain - it's on my to-do list - but the "usual suspects" were all present at the time to receive them (Indochinois etc).

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hello Alex,

Well nice point... but, the first fact is that Kari Stenman provided the list of each engine that was on each French Curtiss delivered to Finland :

1) CU-568 c/n 12879 had the Pratt & Whitney SCG c/n 1623 when it was delivered to Finland on 2nd Aug, 1941.
The French H-75A-1 N°82 was shipped from the USA without engine and received, during assembly at Bourges factory, the Pratt & Whitney SCG c/n 1623. It was delivered on 25th Apr, 1939. The Curtiss Factory Billing Ledger shows that c/n 12879 has left the Factory on 21st Mar, 1939 and had the French s/n N°82.

2) Both motor list match for almost every A-1, A-2, A-3 and A-4 excepted for one or two who were re-engined between assembly and the delivery to the Finnish Air Force. Consequently, there is absolutly zero doubt, now, that the identification of the Finno-French H-75s' is right.

3) This point was not clear at the time S. Grey restaured his aircraft, so let him the benefit of the doubt. However, Lionel Persyn knew that before by investigating each a/c case and he had no doubt it matched ; S. Grey had two marks stamped inside the airframe on parts not removable from it that are clearly a Nr.82. Those stamps were applied in production and the aircraft were not serialized for the French once they had left the factory but early during the building process. All the serie was built and accepted in straight order, same for the shipment beside aircraft retained for testing like both N°1s. The marking was made with the number provided by the client instead of factory c/ns. This s/n was the reference number for every document we saw.

4) both Nr.82's airframe differed by mostly nothing excepted the firewall, the engine mounting and wings. It was studied in 1944 how to adapt a P&W engine on a A-4 airframe as no stock of this later Wright engine was still available because it used to break after a very short time. When Lionel found the accident report for this N°82 in Cazaux (close to the wreckage recovery), it was demonstrated that it was one of the last A-4 delivered in 1945 on which was mounted a P&W in Alger-Maison-Blanche AIA N°3 (Air force industrial workshop Nr.3). This is clearly writed on this document with all the subsequent hours of flight.

5) order of production / delivery :
12875 No.78 16-Mar-39 France H-75A-1 X8-77
12876 No.79 17-Mar-39 France H-75A-1 X8-78
12877 No.80 17-Mar-39 France H-75A-1 X8-79
12878 No.81 20-Mar-39 France H-75A-1 X8-80
12879 No.82 21-Mar-39 France H-75A-1 X8-81
12880 No.83 21-Mar-39 France H-75A-1 X8-82
12881 No.84 22-Mar-39 France H-75A-1 X8-83
(Many thanks Buz for typing the complete list from the Ledger)

6) Factory plates.
Thanks to *CJE* who will publish soon an article in Dogfight about the H-75s, here is how should look the N°82 plate which was only 52 aircraft behind this one below; you can read the numbers in negative and notice that the date is in US format (5 7 40); S/N is N°30 and C/N is 13835; the following pict is the one from the cockpit used to get the plate. (You may notice as well that the plate of the restaured N°82 is wrong about the production date : April, 1939 for the A-1 instead of 21-Mar, 1939)

13835 No.30 7-May-40 France H-75A4 (plate)
...
13887 No.82 29-May-40 France H-75A4 (restaured)

http://moh-ker.9online.fr/france40/H_751.jpg
http://moh-ker.9online.fr/france40/H_751_negatif.jpg
http://moh-ker.9online.fr/france40/H751_cockpit.jpg
http://moh-ker.9online.fr/france40/H751.jpg
(this last pict is showing the new renumbering for the A-4 serie and was published as well in the Docavia Cuny/Beauchamp)

You've got the answer of the remaining questions you asked from Juha.

Regards,
Olivier Bacca / Louis Capdeboscq / Lionel Persyn

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hi,

Thank you for the confirmation

Takata I am sending to you by e-mail my datasheet.

All the best

Alex

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hi Alex,

Sorry about the delay, but I had very few spare time to check your list. I'll sent you something this week-end to improve it quite a bit.

S~
Olivier.

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hello Oliver,
I look forward to it, Many thanks
Alex

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hello Olivier,

Did you send the promised info ?

If so I have not as yet received it.

Alex

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hello Alex,

Yes, I did it the day after I posted here. Send me another e-mail if something was wrong with that, I'll send it again.

Regards,
Olivier Bacca

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hi oliver,

Still not received anything on the Curtis Hawks from you.

my e-mail was sent to you in PM some time ago.

But here it is in full view

alex@smart98.freeserve.co.uk


Alex

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Any new news of the H-751?

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hi,

I thought we answered to many questions in this topic, but if you have anything to ask, do not hesitate.

Regards from France,

Lionel Persyn

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

In october 2006 Olivier Bacca posted the following;

Quote;
For a complete and detailed account of what was finnaly used by l'Armée de l'Air, you will have to wait for the publication of Lionel Persyn's work which is outstanding concerning this aircraft in French service. I guess CJE will publish an article about that in the near future.

Regards,
Olivier Bacca.[/quote]

This is what I had in mind. Any news about these publications?

Birgir Thorisson

Re: French H-75A-4 aircraft
 

Hi Birgir,


The book of Lionel Persyn on Curtiss H-75 is available an it is one the two best book wrtitten in French published last year.


http://www.avions-bateaux.com/fr/cat...logue_994.html

HTH

Bertrand