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Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=875
78. Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 500210 Yellow 17 of 3./JG 7 with Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 110800 White 7 of 9./JG 7 at Fassberg in May 1945. British forces used flags to rope off the Me 262s. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=876 79. Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 110800 White 7 still in German markings being prepared for a transfer flight to Lübeck-Blankensee by RAF and Luftwaffe personnel. This photo is dated 26 May 1945. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=877 80. Wing Commander Warren E. Schrader and Flight Lieutenant Clive Gosling (jet pilots of No. 616 Squadron now at Lübeck-Blankensee) sit on the wing of Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 500210 Yellow 17 still in German markings and confer with Luftwaffe and RAF personnel prior to their transfer flights on 27 May. forum.12oclockhigh.net/album.php?albumid=73&pictureid=878 81. Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 500210 Yellow 17 is being fuelled for its flight to Lübeck. Note the hurried painting-over of German markings and the addition of roundels. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=879 82. Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 110800 White 7 being worked on immediately prior to its flight. Note that British markings also have been added. forum.12oclockhigh.net/album.php?albumid=73&pictureid=880 83. A not uncommon result of a nose gear that did not fully lower. Wing Commander Schrader's Me 262 White 7 is seen at Lübeck-Blankensee. Note the damage to the base of the tailfin indicates that a cable was used to drag the aircraft to the scrap area seen here. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=881
84. Eight Me 262s were surrendered on 6 May 1945 at Schleswig-Land to elements of the RAF Regiment. Seen here l. to r. are Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 500443 Yellow 5?; Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 112372 Red 2; Me 262 A-1a (werknummer unknown to me) Red 1; Me 262 B-1a W.Nr. 110165?; Me 262 B-1a/U1 W.Nr. 110306; and Me 262 B-1a/U1 W.Nr. 110305 Red 8. To the right out of camera range were Me 262 B-1a W.Nr 110635 Red 10 and Me 262 B-1a/U1 W.Nr. 111980 Red 12. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=882 85. Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 500443 was captured at Schleswig. O'Connell, Me 262 Production Log, (2005), p. 173 says it was originally coded Yellow 5 but repainted by hand to Yellow 6. Its unit is unknown to me. Note that the British markings applied at Schleswig are distinct: unusually large RAF roundels without yellow outer rings and the addition of RAF fin flashes. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=883 86. A poor quality photo shows the unique markings of W.Nr. 500443, which include the total lack of JG 7 insignia, lack of nose or tail tip colours, the cannon ports surround colours, the white rudder, the unusually small tactical number in yellow on the rear fuselage contrary to 10./NJG 11 markings and the mismatched port engine nacelle fairings. Assigned "U.S.A.1.", it was not taken by Watson's Whizzers. Reported as having been shipped to the UK. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=884
87. Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 112372 Red 2 of 10./NJG 11 is seen in German markings at Schleswig. Note the blue/red RVT bands of JG 7 and the painted-out tactical fighter numeral in front of the balkenkreuz. The Red 2 covers the JG 7 wappen. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=885 88. Robert Forsyth on p. 121 of Jagdgeschwader 7 'Nowotny', (Osprey, 2008), says that on 1 June 1945, Flt. Lt. Pierre Arend flew W.Nr. 112372 from Schleswig to Twente 'where it is believed to have received some repair work.' http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=886 89. On 23 June 1945, Farnborough jet test pilot S/Ldr. Brian Hugh Moloney probably flew Me 262 W.Nr. 112372 Red 2 from Twente via Gilze Rijen, Melsbroek and Manston to RAE Farnborough. It is seen here during its stop-over at Gilze Rijen, with the silhouette of Me 262 B-1a/U1 W.Nr. 111980 Red 12 (damaged on landing 19 June 1945) in the hangar awaiting repairs. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=889
90. Me 262 A-1a RAF serial VH509 arrived in crates at Montreal, Canada on 1 September 1946 aboard SS Manchester Shipper. It was sent to RCAF Downsview (Toronto) for reassembly and this view shows the port side of the fuselage on the floor of the hangar. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=890 91. This starboard view of Me 262 A-1a VH509 on the floor of the Downsview hangar was probably taken in the autumn of 1946. At some time while in Britain this fuselage was oversprayed with a dark colour, even over the the British markings added in Germany and were subsequently partially remarked. However, certain details show through. The blue/red RVT bands of JG 7, the large RAF roundel typical of those applied at Schleswig, the edge of the original RAF fin flash and the original Red 1 outlined in white that was painted over the JG 7 wappen can be seen. If this is AM 52, it was possibly flown by Flight Lieutenant Pierre Arend from Schleswig to Twente and from Twente via Manston to RAE Farnborough in June 1945. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=891 92. A photo of the reassembled Me 262 A-1a VH509 in the Downsview hangar. Note that only the top surface of the engine nacelles were oversprayed in Britain. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=892 93. This photograph of the reassembled Me 262 A-1a (W.Nr. unknown to me) VH509 was taken at the RCAF Staff College, Toronto, Canada on 12 June 1948. The unique pattern of black and white on the rear of the port engine nacelle matches exactly that of the third aircraft in the line-up at Schleswig that can be seen in a photo (at a different angle from my post #84) found on page 515 of Andreas Zapf's Mosquitos über Berlin, (2018), which is also a Red 1. This is almost certainly the same aircraft. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
Jim,
In photos taken at Schleswig, this aircraft reveals the overpainting of a wappen on its nose and the fuselage tailband. Their positions and dimensions point to a machine originally with JG 7. Importantly, all other German national markings remain intact. Over the wappen as painted a small red-coloured / white-outlined number '1'. This is in the same position as "Red 2", the other 10./NJG 11 single seat Me 262. Both “Red 1” and “Red 2” are ex-JG 7 aircraft and no doubt their original markings were painted over when transferred to 10./NJG 11. In a photo taken of the aircraft as it sat exposed to the elements at CFB Downsview, a large white-coloured '2' is just visible bleeding through the German-applied paint. Its dimensions, and that it was not outlined, point to a machine previously with I./JG 7. While its Werknummer is not known, the camouflage style points to a 112xxx series machine. Best, David |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
Thank you, David. That information is most welcome. I'll look for the '2'.
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Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=893
94. Messerschmitt civilian test pilot Ludwig "Willie" Hoffmann of Watson's Whizzers stands on the wing of Me 262 B-1a "165" which was the fourth aircraft in the line-up of Me 262s surrendered at Schleswig. Given British markings, it was designated as "U.S.A.2." and handed over to the Americans. On 19 June 1945, Hoffmann flew it from Schleswig to Twente and then via Beauvechain-Le Culot to Melun-Villaroche in France. (Samuel, American Raiders, (2004), pp. 284-285.) http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=894 http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=895 http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=896 95. Photos of Me 262 B-1a "165" being examined by American servicemen on its arrival either at Le Culot or Melun, still in British markings. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=897 96. At Melun, Me 262 B-1a "165" was dubbed "What was it?" in the American markings of Watson's Whizzers and given the number "101" beneath the horizontal stabilizer. On 3 July 1945 it was flown to Cherbourg-Querqueville for preparation for shipping aboard HMS Reaper to the United States. Note the late production tail light on the rudder. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=898
97. This photo of Me 262 B-1a/U1 "306" of 10./NJG 11 shows it in German markings in its fifth position in the line-up at Schleswig. Note that there is no protruding barrel from the lower gun port and that the auxiliary fuel tanks are missing. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=899 98. A group photo of British and Luftwaffe personnel at Schleswig in front of "306". Note the RAF roundel and addition of the auxiliary fuel tanks. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=900 99. This photo shows "306" in British markings. Assigned to the Americans and marked with a hand-painted "U.S.A.3." on the starboard fuselage, it was handed over to Watson's Whizzers. Lt. Bob Strobell flew it from Schleswig to Twente on 19 June 1945. Through pilot error, he landed short hitting a berm in from of the short concrete runway. "I wiped out the entire right side of the airplane." Normally it would have been scrapped, but as it was their only example of a B-1a/U1, they flew in an "entire wing and gear" assembly by C-47 from Lechfeld. (Samuel, American Raiders, pp. 284-5) On 23 June 1945, Strobell flew the repaired "306" from Twente to Melun-Villaroche. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=901 http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=902 100. At Melun, Me 262 B-1a/U1 "306" was given American markings and christened "Ole Fruit Cake". The Whizzer's number "999" can be seen beneath the horizontal stabilizer. On 3 July 1945, Strobell flew it from Melun to Cherbourg-Querqueville to be prepared for shipping aboard HMS Reaper to the United States. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=903
101. Me 262 B-1a/U1 "305" Red 8 of 10./NJG 11 was the sixth jet in the line-up at Schleswig. Each B-1a/U1 had a different camouflage pattern. "305" is seen here receiving its RAF roundels and fin flashes in May 1945. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=904 102. This photo shows "305" being refueled during its stop-over at Gilze-Rijen. On 18 May 1945, RAE Farnborough's chief test pilot, W/C. R. J. "Roly" Falk, flew it from Schleswig via Twente to Gilze-Rijen. On the 19th he ferried it via Melsbroek to Manston. It was first designated AM 50 and later given the RAF serial VH519. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=905 103. This photo is stamp-dated on the back as 28 May 1945 for Air Ministry A.I.2 (Q). Note the late production tail light on the rudder of "305" forum.12oclockhigh.net/album.php?albumid=73&pictureid=906 104. In England, "305" was first put to use for conversion training of Farnborough's test pilots who were to ferry German jets back to Britain. German ground crew were brought to England to help with their expertise. forum.12oclockhigh.net/album.php?albumid=73&pictureid=907 105. Assigned for radar and tactical evaluation by the Fighter Interception Development Squadron at the Central Fighter Establishment, "305" was transferred from RAE Farnborough to RNAS Ford by W?C. F. S. Gonsalves, ex-c.o. of No. 85 Sqn. RAF, on 6 July 1945. However, he overshot on landing causing minor damage. Parts were flown in from Germany in a Ju 88 and it is seen here after repairs. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
forum.12oclockhigh.net/album.php?albumid=73&pictureid=908
106. Me 262 B-1a/U1 W.Nr. 110635 Red 10 seen in German markings at Schleswig, likely in May 1945. Note the wire cable. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=909 107. This photo, likely taken in late May 1945, shows Lt. Cdr. Eric "Winkel" Brown, RN, (fluent in German) sitting in W.Nr. 110635 getting instruction from Oblt. Kurt Welter with Ltn. Jorg Cypionka acting as interpreter. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=911 108. W.Nr. 110635 was intended for the Americans and "U.S.A.4." was added to the starboard side of the rear fuselage as were British roundels and fin flashes. In the background of this picture is W.Nr. 500443 "U.S.A.1.". Like "U.S.A.1.", W.Nr. 110635 was not taken by Watson's Whizzers. Note the early production tail light on the rudder. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=910 109. Another view of W.Nr. 110635 in British markings. One source says that a "F/Lt. T. Melhuish" flew this aircraft from Schleswig via Twente, Melsbroek and Manston to RAE Farnborough in late June 1945. So far I have been unable to identify this pilot. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=923
110. The eighth and last Me 262 in the line-up at Schleswig was B-1a/U1 W.Nr. 111980 Red 12 of 10./NJG 11 seen here in German markings likely in May 1945. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=924 111. Here W.Nr. 111980 Red 12 is seen at the end of a line up of Me 262s at Schleswig after being given British markings. Note that the rudders of some of the Me 262s have been removed as was done to some Ar 234s at Grove. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=925 112. A close-up of the port side of W.Nr. 111980. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=926 113. On 19 June 1945, S/Ldr. Tony F. Martindale ferried Me 262 B-1a/U1 W.Nr 111980 Red 12 from Schleswig via Twente to Gilze Rijen. On touchdown at Gilze Rijen his brakes failed and his aircraft overran the runway hitting a ditch. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=927 114. The damage seen here took months to repair. Finally, on 6 December 1945, Martindale flew it from Gilze Rijen via Melsbroek and Manston to RAE Farnborough. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=928
115. This Me 262 A-1a was found by "curious members of the British 15/19th Kings Royal Hussars" (O'Connell, p. 224) alongside an autobahn. The position of the white-surround "3" ahead of the cockpit is in keeping with the usage of both 10./EJG 2 and 10./NJG 11. Note that in this photo the Jumo 004 engine is intact below the port wing. This aircraft is unique to me in showing an exception to a rule. 'Surround 3' obviously has four MK 108 cannons but has only one white gun rectangle below the access hatch. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=929 116. This photo of 'surround 3' is from the album of one of four members of the Royal Artillery assigned to do a survey of the Hamburg area in 1945. Note the now missing port engine but intact port side of the fuselage. The early production tail light has been broken off the rudder. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=930 117. This photo of 'surround 3' shows further damage to the port fuselage. The captions on the backs of similar photos of this aircraft place it on the "Autobahn Between Hamburg + Lübeck". If this is correct, then 'surround 3' is possibly an aircraft of 10./NJG 11 which used the Hamburg-Lübeck autobahn near Reinfeld as an airfield from 19 April to 4 May 1945. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=931 118. This photo of Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 170070 White 12 (ex E7+02 of E-Stelle Rechlin) [see O'Connell, p. 84) comes from the same album as the photo of'surround 3' in #116. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=932 119. A very poor photo of W.Nr. 170070 shows similar damage to the port side as seen in #117. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
I don't know if there is any validity to this, but I have seen reports that the port side of 262's were opened to allow access to fuel tanks that were covered in leather, that was then used to make shoes after the war.
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Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=936
120. This is a photo of the western side of Innsbruck-Hotting airfield facing north, probably taken in the summer of 1945. In the distance the northern perimeter of the poplar-lined Kranebitter Allee can be seen. A memo of the OKL/Gen. Qu. 6 Amt. dated 02.05.1945 stated, "Von diesem insgesamt 91 am 26.4 in München Riem befindlichen Me 262 sind mit Siehkreit 22 nach Innsbruck gestartet, wobei 7 bei der Landung Bruch gemacht haben ..." Of these twenty-two Me 262s flown from Riem, most were found in early May 1945 by American forces in the south-west corner of the Hotting airfield near the River Inn. However, a number of these were later towed or taxiied to different parking areas, especially along the Allee. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=937 121. This enlarged cropping of the above photo shows my guesses as to where six of those aircraft were parked along Kranebitter Allee. Corrections and additions are most welcome. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=938 122. Another cropping shows my guesses as to the positions of the remainder of the twenty-two Me 262s at Hotting. There are at least sixteen of these for which I have photos but not all can be identified by werknummer. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
Great work on annotating those photos.
In the German telegram »mit Siehkreit« should, I guess, read »mit Sicherheit« = with certainty. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=939
123. This photo shows No. 1 which is the westernmost of the Me 262s parked along Kranebitter Allee. It is Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 500490 (listed as being at the DLH facility at Riem on 26 April). It was facing west-south-west almost parallel to the Allee and west of the barn with Ju 87 D-3 E8+GL seen in the background. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=940 124. W.Nr. 500490 was uncoded and had the simple black hakenkreuz and lack of white gun rectangles of the 500xxx series. It is recognizable by the bare aluminum of its starboard engine nacelle cowl and the nearby 44 gallon barrel seen in pictures. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
In the German telegram »mit Siehkreit« should, I guess, read »mit Sicherheit« = with certainty.
Thank you, Nick. I completely garbled it in transcribing my notes. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
Quote:
On p. 108 of Brown, etal. Messerschmitt Me 262 Production & Arado Ar 234 Final Operations, (JaPo, 2012), there is an excellent photo of Me 262 W.Nr. 111617 at the Brunnthal dump. Beneath it lies a fuel tank lacking its leather cover. Jim |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=942
125. This picture shows Me 262 No. 2 which is just east of W.Nr. 500490 at Hotting. This is Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 111857 (listed as being with JV 44 at München-Riem on 26 April 1945). It is south of the barn with Ju 87 D-3 E8+GL and is on a diagonal to the Allee, facing east-south-east. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=943 126. W.Nr. 111857 is uncoded. It is readily identified by the white werknummer on both sides of the tail fin and both engine cowls were painted white in the usage of III./EJG 2. For this photo the camera is facing south-west. Two prominent landmarks can be seen across the River Inn, "the white tower of the Emmaus Church in the village of Völs and the conical peak of the Blaisenberg", (Nick Beale, Ghost Bombers, (2001), p. 185). http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=944 127. Me 262 No. 3 was parked a few hundred meters to the east of the barn with the Ju 87. It is Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 500524 (listed as being at the DLH facility at München-Riem on 26 April 1945). It is in the meadow facing away from the Allee on a diagonal to the east-south-east. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=945 128. W.Nr. 500524 is recognizable by its 500xxx series' black hakenkreuz and the flattened nose and engine cowls. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=946 129. This is a poor view of Hotting airfield's north side looking west from the meadow. Two Me 262s, White 12 and Red 1, can be seen facing north-north-west, parked perpendicular to the Allee. The flattened nose of W.Nr. 500524 can be seen above the rear fuselage of Red 1. Note the late production tail light bulb on the rudder of White 12. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
Nice selection Jim. Thanks.
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Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=951
130. No. 4 is Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 110766 Red 1 of 2./KG 51 (listed as being with JV 44 at München-Riem on 26 April 1945). This is a photo of its original situation at Hotting. Note the intact canopy and nose gear, two white gun rectangles and nose colours, the white line indicating I. Gruppe and the red tip indicating 2. Staffel. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=952 131. This photo shows how Red 1 was dragged to its place beside White 12. Note the lack of bomb racks. It can be readily identified by its forward splayed nose gear. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=953 132. A close-up of Red 1's tail shows its werknummer. Note the late production tail light bulb. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=954 133. No. 5 is Me 262 A-1a White 12 (W.Nr. unknown to me). Note its collapsed nosewheel and flattened nose. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=955 134. A view of the starboard side of White 12 shows damage to the engine nacelle and lower nose. Note the over-painted nose cone and the small, dak-coloured nose cap similar to that of W.Nr. 500531 at Hörsching-Linz |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
Excellent photos - Thanks!
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Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
You're welcome. My pleasure, Dan.
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Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
Hi Jim,
Thanks for your efforts in trying to bring out the best of these images. It is appreciated. I have a few comments regarding several of the machines in your recent postings: Photo Numbers 115-117 Red 3: Most probably another single seat A-1a operating with 10./NJG 11. It was found adjacent to the Hamburg-Lübeck autobahn at Reinfeld. Of the number of photos taken of it one shows the aircraft with very muddy front and right tires. This observation, plus its location make it quite likely that this is the Me 262 that Lt. Kurt Lamm deliberately steered off the autobahn (April 30?). This machine may have been the aircraft Lamm flew from Zerbst as WNr.110955 is known to have been flown from Kahla to Zerbst on 13 March 1945 by Günther Tippel. Photo Numbers 129-134 White 12: Possibly WNr.111730 based on a poor quality photograph, and comparison of its camouflage and markings styles with other related JV 44 Me 262s (e.g. 111704, 111740, 111745, 110746). This Werknummer is listed on the 26 April 1945 München-Riem Me 262 document under the heading “J.V.44”. However, there are a significant number of transcription errors in this document and it is possible that the Werknummer is 111733 (the photo suggested this is the number). Red 1: The markings indicate that aircraft was an ex-2./KG 51 aircraft, and its Werknummer 110730 is visible in one of the Innsbruck-Hötting photographs. But it was later with II./Ausbildungs-Kommando KG(J) 54. On 21 April 1945 was at Prag-Rusin and listed in a document of that date and identified by its Werknummer and marking ("Rote 1”). “Red 1’s” Werknummer is not on the 26 April 1945 München-Riem Me 262 document as one of the 12 (9 confirmed / 3 questionable) Me 262s listed under the JV heading and identified with a hand-written notation as “I./KG 51” aircraft. These were transferred to JV 44 a few days previously but then transferred back to KG 51 and ordered returned to Prague. “Red 1” must have come from elsewhere or was already in Prague. Best, David |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
Hi David,
Wow, thank you so much for these observations. The information about Kurt Lamm is new to me. Also, I have spent hours squinting at an enlarged cropping of the tail of White 12 trying to decipher the tips of the werknummer. I have reservations about the werknummer of "Red 1". http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=956 best regards, Jim |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=957
135. No. 6 is Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 111751 (listed as being at München-Riem on 26 April 1945 handed over from "Memmigen Industrie"). In this photo it is being examined by American personnel in close proximity to White 12 beneath the hydro lines in the south-west corner of Hotting airfield. Note the landmark barn with the white-washed cinderblock base at the far right. Not visible are the damages sustained by these two aircraft although the tail of of 111751 appears to be on the ground. Ltn. Peter Stollwerck of NSG 9, already at Hotting on 29 April 1945, is quoted by Nick Beale, Ghost Bombers, (2001), p. 181, "We saw exciting days at Innsbruck: jet fighters landed in large numbers and made headstands, one after another". It is likely some of these were the ones dragged north to be parked along Kranebitter Allee. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=958 136. W.Nr. 111751 was probably the Me 262 parked furthest east along the Allee. It was on a diagonal facing south-east away from the Allee and this picture shows its collapsed nosewheel and damage to the port wing. Also, in the background top right, the unpainted W.Nr. 113371 can just be seen beyond a column of GIs or POWs. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=959
137. No. 7 is Me 262 A-1a/Jabo W.Nr. 113371 (listed as being at the DLH facility at München-Riem on 26 April 1945). In this photo of W.Nr. 500490, the white shape at the top is 113371 about 30 meters south of a dilapidated barn, facing west. About 30 meters behind it W.Nr. 112360? canjust be made out facing North-east towards the Allee. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=960 138. This photo shows the uncamouflaged W.Nr. 113371 on the north-west side of Hotting airfield near the dilapidated barn. It can be distinguished by its simple white hakenkreuz and simple white balkenkreuz. Its werknummer is readily seen on the rear fuselage below the horizontal stabilizer. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=961 139. In this photo of W.Nr. 113371 its bomb racks can be seen. Note the distance from the poplar trees , and also the flattened nose and engine cowls. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=967
140. No. 8 is Me 262 A-1a possibly W.Nr. 112360? (perhaps the closest match on the 26 April 1945 list at München-Riem is W.Nr. 113340 at the DLH facility). This photo was taken almost from the same angle as in #139 of 113371 at Hotting almost 30 meters south of it, facing north east. The damage to this aircraft was extensive and the starboard engine nacelle is seen detached from the wing. A torn-off engine fairing is also below the rear fuselage. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=968 141. The same damage can be seen in this picture. Note: I have never seen any photographs of Nos. 9, 10 or 11. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=971 142. No. 12 is the unpainted Me 262 A-1a/Jabo W.Nr. 111712 (listed in error as 112712 being at the DLH facility at München-Riem on 26 April 1945). David Myhra has a series of E-books entitled Broken Me 262 A Jet Fighters, (2011). In parts 7 & 8, there are photos of W.Nr. 111712 in close proximity to W.Nr. 113357, W.Nr. 111751, White 12 and a third unpainted? Me 262 (No. 15) in a meadow in the south west corner of Hotting airfield. In this screen-shot, W.Nr. 111712 has been moved to about 50 meters south west of the barn with the white-washed cinderblock base, facing south-east. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=970 143. W.Nr. 111712 can be readily identified by the fact it is uncamouflaged and has both a simple black hakenkreuz and a simple black balkenkreuz. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=972
144. No. 13 is Me 262 A-1a White 4. Its identity is unknown to me. It was situated about 30 meters south of W.Nr. 111712, facing east-south-east. This is a screenshot from the video of Hotting airfield taken in the summer of of 1945. Note the late production tail light bulb on the rudder. Although David Myhra captions this aircraft as W.Nr. 170061, I have my doubts. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=973 145. Another screenshot of White 4 shows desiccated branches lying on the aircraft despite the camouflage net on the engine nacelle. This is an aircraft of JV 44 as proven by the standard position and style of the white "4". Placed forward of the balkenkreuz, its height is from the top of the balkenkreuz to the underside of its lower bar, and it is distanced one half the width of the balkenkreuz from it. Unfortunately there are no photographs of No. 14. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=977
146. This screenshot was taken while the cameraman was standing just north of White 4, facing southeast. No. 20 can be seen facing northeast. No. 15 may be a third unpainted Me 262 at Hotting. Unfortunately I have not seen any close-up views of it. No. 16 faces northeast. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=975 147. No. 16 is Me 262 A-1a, possibly W.Nr. 500228, 9K+CN of 5./KG 51 (listed as being turned over to JV 44 from KG 51 at Landau). It is parked in front of an unseen small concrete apron in the southwest corner of Hotting airfield, facing northeast. Note the concrete base of the hydro pylon at the extreme left, as well as the nose and tail tip colours, an imperceptible red line indicating II.Gruppe contiguous with the red tip indicating 5. Staffel. To my eye, there is a red hand-painted "C" on the nose-wheel door. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=976 148. In this screenshot, what seems to me to be a large red "C" can be seen behind the balkenkreuz. It also has hand-painted dark camouflage added to the sides of the engine nacelles and lacks both bomb racks and white gun rectangles. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
More great photos. Thanks Jim!
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Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
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Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=978
Sorry, Nick. That video must be a very poor copy of the original. With so poor resolution, there is very little to work with. Hopefully, a good quality copy will turn up. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
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Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
Nick,
There is a third Fw 190 F photographed there that is uncoded, WNr.584564. David |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=979
149. At the extreme right of this screenshot of southwest Hotting, No. 17 can be seen facing northeast with the nose of Ju 87 D-3 E8+CL just visible a distance behind it. Nos. 18 and 19 are facing north-north-east in the meadow west of the large shed. No. 22 is east of the shed facing north. No. 21 is to the south of a farmhouse facing west. and No. 20 faces northwest. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=980 150. This is No. 17. It is a Me 262 A-1a of the 500xxx series werknummern. Note the dark nose cap similar to that of White 12, and the lack of camouflage under the wings. Also, a prominent hydro pylon is seen behind it, its cement base hidden from view. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=981 151 This aircraft is readily distinguished by the thick band of wavy dark camouflage that has been added to the starboard engine nacelle. The tip of the tailfin of No. 16 can just be seen above the balkenkreuz. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=982 152. The hydro pylon's cement base seen in this photo is discernable in post # 122 on the west side of the river road just before it bends behind the cement apron. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=983 153. In this screenshot, Nos. 19 and 18 can be seen above the port wing of No. 20. Notice the light coloured fin tip on No. 18. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=984
154. This is my only picture of No. 18. It was parked about 10 meters north of Ju 87 D-3 E8+CL which is seen behind it. This Me 262 is facing north-north-east and the starboard engine seems to be damaged. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=985 155. To my eye, the tip of the tail fin is yellow, there is a yellow "E" on the nose wheel door and an early-style ETC 503 bomb rack under the forward fuselage. If so, these make it Me 262 A-1a/Jabo W.Nr. 130183 9K+EL of 3./KG 51 (listed in error as 130983 seconded to JV 44 from Staubing and at München-Riem on 26 April 1945). http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=986 156. The inset of this photo shows No. 19 to be "White 13" of JV 44. A sharp-eyed Franck (Ouijat) of this forum spotted the Me 262 A-1a beneath the rear fuselage in this picture of No. 22. Note the farmhouse in the background to the right. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=987 157. This view of Ju 87 D-3 E8+CL shows "White 13", from the opposite direction, to be just west of the large shed. I do not know its identity. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=988 158. This screenshot was made with the camera facing east-south-east. Me 262s Nos. 20 and 21 are in the field south of the farm house while No. 22 is in the distance near to the unseen River Inn. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=989
159. This is a mediocre enlargement of a photo of No. 20. It is a Me 262 A-1a/Jabo, probably WNr. 113357 (listed as being both with JV 44 and at the DLH facility at München-Riem on 26 April 1945). It is situated about 25 meters west-south-west of the farm house at Hotting, facing northwest. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=990 160. This is a screenshot of WNr. 113357. It is recognizable by the large, slanted, bare aluminum band exposed on the port tail fin below the hakenkreuz, but there is similar damage to the lower port engine cowl. A hand-painted dark camouflage has been added to the engine nacelles, including a leading edge ring on the port side. Unfortunately, I have no photos of No. 21 and do not know its identity. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=991 161. No. 22, and the last Me 262 at Hotting known to me, is A-1a/Jabo WNr. 113369 (listed in error as WNr. 111369 being at the DLH facility at München-Riem on 26 April 1945). It was located about 30 meters east of the large shed near the River Inn, and was facing north. In this view of the Starboard side, the werknummer can be seen as well as the "R369" on the bomb rack. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=992 162. This is the port side of WNr. 113369 as proven by the "369L" on the bomb rack. Note the dark camouflage added to the engine nacelles. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=993 163. This is another view of its port side. In all the photos I have seen of WNr. 113369 the rudder is a darker shade than the rest of the tail. |
Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
Thank you!
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Re: Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s
It's actually my pleasure, Dan.
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