Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

I'm with Michael (Nokose), let's try to help Johannes with his query.

I'll share some assistance comprising first a look at Stotz's opponents up until serving with Hahn, then a look at BOTH their opponents. I am indebted to the Tony Wood lists and Johannes' books plus Christer Bergstroem's work in trying to get this mapped out. It hope it helps somewhat to answer the original question of the thread:
Stotz's early opponents:


6.11.39
Blenheim I
Frankfurt area/Voelklingen
Possibly L1145/DX- of 57 sqn. P/O Alexander Donald Morton, Sgt. G Storr and AC1 F A Twinning all KIA (Generally attributed to Frank-Werner Rott of 3./JG 53)

14.5.40/1615
2 x Battle I
Sedan
Stotz is generally credited with P2182 of 150 sqn. P/O J Boon, Sgt. T Fortune and AC1 S Martin all KIA
3.6.40/1520
Hurricane I ("Curtiss Hawk")
W of Epernay
73 sqn. Severe overclaiming, only one loss: Serial unknown of P/O Ian Douglas Hawken KIA
(Versus five claims)

6.6.40/2100
2 x Curtiss Hawk
NW of Amiens
Stotz is generally credited with No. 124 of GC I/4. S/Lt. H de La Taille-Tretinville baled out but KIA because chute failed (slight overclaiming)

11.8.41/1540
13 KOAE. Lt. I S Chabukiani
(Also claimed by Philipp)

We then come to the claims described by Michael (Nokose), no need to duplicate those here

9.8.42/1015 and 1017
2 x Pe-2s (plus one claimed by Ofw. Paul Finkler)
793 BBAP, 211 BBAD, 3 VA. Crews of Mladshiy Leytenant Avdokhin, Serzhants Aleksey Volynchchikov and Ivan Moiseev all MIA
(3 claims for 3 losses)
10.8.42/1340, 1341 and 1342
3 x LaGG-3s
Staritsa-Rzhev
157 IAP. Two of the Hurricanes received 2-4 machine gun holes with Serzhant Voloshin WIA (right leg). Conflicting source says this was 163 IAP, Vladimir Fedorovich Timofeenko (2+7 shared victories)

10.8.42/1415
IL-2 Sturmovik
15km NE of Konaja (PQ 46254) @ low altitude
312 ShAP. Leytenants Vasiliy Khomyakov and Prokopiy Bushuev both failed to return
(other loss was inflicted by Stendel of JG 51)
16.8.42/0738 and 0741
2 x La-5s (the second was misidentified as a Curtiss P-40)
Golovskoye-Sukhinikhi
49 IAP, 309 IAD, 1 VA. Three losses, personnel details pending
(versus 5 claims in total)

19.8.42/1345 and 1347
2 x La-5s (misidentified as “Curtiss P-40s”)
S of Sukhinikhi
49 IAP, 309 IAD, 1 VA. Legitimate victories, there were apparently two losses, personnel details pending

12.12.42/1352 and 1358
2 x LaGG-3s
Demjansk-Staraya Russa
21 GIAP. 3 losses including AE CO Mayor Viktor Goncharov and deputy AE CO Kapitan Ivan Semenovich Bakal KIA
(Plus one claim each by Beisswenger and Sterr, 4 claims for 3 losses)


Stotz and Hahn together:

30.12.42/0850, 0851, 0852, 0854, 0856
5 x “LaGG-3s”, P-40s known to be involved
Engagement with 10 IAP and 156 IAP.
10 IAP, 239 IAD, 6 VA lost Mayor Nikolai Terekhin KIA plus one other shot down. 156 IAP, 240 IAD, 6 VA lost St.Lts. Vocharov, Kasakin and Tokarev plus St. Serzh Chinarov.
(Hahn claims 4 as well)

30.12.42/1140
LaGG-3
20km SW of Waldai (PQ 18261) @ 1000m
(Hahn claims one as well)
21 GIAP, 240 IAD, 6 VA lost Podpolkovnik Georgiy Nikolaevich Konyev (14 kills, 18 shared) in this engagement, generally attributed to Beisswenger some time after Stotz and Hahn claimed.
30.12.42/1345
IL-2 Sturmovik
35km NW of Demjansk (PQ 28123) @ 500m
243 ShAD, 6 VA. 6 losses for 11 claims throughout the day
(Hahn claims one as well)

30.12.42/1347, 1349 and 1355
3 x LaGG-3s
240 IAD, 6 VA. Lost eleven LaGG-3s and La-5s plus four Yak-7Bs that date

6.1.43/0750, 0751, 0752, 0753
4 x P-40s, the last two of which were claimed as LaGG-3s
436 IAP, 240 IAD, 6 VA. St.Lt. Nikolai Fedorovich Kuznetsov (14 and 4 shared kills) bellylanded WIA (returned to combat in 1944), Ml.Lt. Mikhail Galdobin baled out (the unit also lost Serzh Nikolai Matveevich Golovkov, but was it in this engagement?)

14.1.43/1036-1042
Hahn and Stotz claim 4 x La-5s each.
263 IAP, 215 IAD, 14 VA. Four losses: Serzhant Antonov and Ml.Lt. Seliverstov both KIA. Serzhant Petkevich baled out over friendly territory and Starshiy Serzhant Ageshin bellylanded back at Shum a/f. 522 IAP, 215 IAD, 14 VA also suffered one crashlanded back at base

14.1.43/1210-1212
Hahn and Stotz claim 3 x La-5s each.
263 IAP. Massive overclaiming, only Ml.Lt. Rostem forcelanded in friendly territory

26.1.43/1057-1059
Hahn claims one and Stotz claims two LaGGs
263 IAP. Lt. Kalenskiy and Ml.Lt. Petkevich both WIA
(Two losses for three claims)

26.1.43/1400-1405
Two claims by Hahn and three by Stotz for LaGG-3s
3 GIAP, 61 IABR, KBF. One engagement at 1500 Soviet Time, only loss was pilot Prasilov WIA; another engagement at 1600 Soviet Time, only loss was Serzhant Stepanov

27.1.43/1042 and 1043
Hahn and Stotz each claim a LaGG-3
Actually the La-5 of 2 GIAP. Gv.Lt. Filipp Kosolapov, escaped safely and made it home

11.2.43/0951-1008
Hahn and Stotz claim a mix of LaGGs and P-40s
158 IAP. Likely overclaiming, only one known loss: Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Gavrikov MIA

19.2.43/1150-1154
Hahn claims one and Stotz claims two IL-2 Sturmoviks
1 ShAK had 8 losses total throughout the day

21.2.43/0911-0912
Hahn claims one and Stoz claims two La-5s
169 IAP. Bergstroem says Hahn downed St.Lt. Mikhail Vorobiyev KIA
169 IAP. Ml. Ltn. Balandin baled out WIA. Bergstroem says Stotz hit Alexander Mikhailovich Chislov. Lt. Pavel Grazhdaninov possibly shot at and claimed




Grateful for all help and appreciative of any updates/corrections that anyone might care to add....

I sincerely hope it helps Johannes with his enquiries

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

19 August
Stotz’s victories claimed as Curtiss P-40 (72 - 73) at 13:45 and 13:47 at PlQu 54162 and 54134 were actually La-5. The 234 IAD had lost 2 La-5 from 49 IAP in which LeyAleksey Petro and Serzhant Vladimir Zakharov bot were listed as MIA

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

My opinions are firm, where firm they should be.
An argument 'you were not there' kills any discussion. So do false statements about reports having to boost morale and thus not reflecting the actual situation.
The system of reports serves the simple purpose of learning of enemy tactics, advantages or disadvantages of the enemy. There are numerous Allied reports stating exaclty advantages of enemy aircraft or tactics. This was thoroughly analysed and tactical notes issued to the aircrew.
To put in doubt those reports one has to have strong arguments. Why should Americans lie about the causes of losses in Korea? Did they disobey any orders? Would admitting losses to enemy aircraft result in any consequences? Was any such case identified?
In the case of Luftwaffe the primary problem is lack of paperwork. There are no combat reports, no loss reports, no flight records, etc., just only some lists.
Therefore we cannot be sure, if those records are complete.
In regard of losses original records should provide complete information of losses just in order to make the supply system working properly.
There are few instances of adjusting or changing causes of losses, however. One such prime example is the case of the loss of a Me 110 in the far north, where damage to the enemy fire was recorded on the wreck. The pilot, who was still alive, explained, that they were prohibited to attack ground targets to avoid losses. Hence listing the aircraft as lost to technical reasons would help to avoid investigation and perhaps a court of inquiry for the responsible.
We know that such orders were issued to various units at various periods, I recall that JG 2 and JG 26 were ordered to avoid combat with enemy fighters back in 1941. This did not make pilots happy, and they disobeyed those orders at times. Did it result with false loss reports as to causes? Possibly, but there is no proof. We can only have some statistical observations, like the one, that parachute was not used in most cases. I recall that 90% of write offs due to enemy action did not involve use of a parachute. What conclusion should be, then?
Similarly about the overclaim. Luftwaffe had a very rigid system of awarding victories. In theory, there should be no overclaim at all, and for years it was claimed there was none or that it was limited, indeed. Now, we find that this is not the case. How much of that was a simple result of combat confusion? Why RLM was unable to sort out those cases?
Johannes' observation that serial kills took place within small groups of pilots is an interesting one. Still, it is not an evidence of frauds. Could be those pilots trusted themselves and therefore could enter a more risky combat than with other pilots. This needs to be investigated, but this should not be limited to few cases, but rather a more general approach should be made. There are plenty of Soviet records available, and it should be possible to establish, if there were losses and if there were dog fights at all. Certainly, if it could be found that there were no encounters at the time multiple victories were claimed, should raise a question about honesty of some pilots.
Obviously, there is a question about a reason. Did excessive scores result in any gains? Could this motivate pilots to make fraudulent claims? And how could RLM approve those victories and not investigate them?
Certainly, an argument ‘you were not there’ or ‘you do not know, how to read documents’ would not help.



Nick
I am afraid, that the list is not exactly clear in providing the information required.
I would suggest a table with following information: Kill no of the pilot in question; number of kills of the pilot in particular combat; total number of kills; total number of aircraft lost; total number of write offs upon return; total number of aircraft damaged.
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Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

First let me say, I can vouch for your book and, having bought it and read it (going thru it for the second time now), I can attest to it's quality and accuracy. It's a great book on a not very well known theater of war.

Secondly, a Chris Shores style treatment for the Eastern Front is a project I would love to see, but as you say it's probably an impossible task...BUT doesn't Christer Bergstrom's 'Black Cross/Red Star' series sort of 'fill the bill'?


NM

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Franek

Have you ever tried to put human nature into your equation?
If you do, you will be surprised to see what happens.

I have worked for an international company all my working life and I have thus come across loads of
individuals on every continent we have.
I also have seen how people "develop" through time and how this effects their "climbing the ladder".
I also worked very closely for many years with a Polish woman who were our controller. She was very....
ehhh...Polish in her way of handling her work. Nuff said....:)

There simply doesn't exist any system which ensure an absolute fair status for everyone. There are always
individuals who use systems for their own benefit.
There are also individuals who use such systems to write reports which they know their superiors like to
hear. I came across that far too many times. There was even one idiot who stole my evaluation report on India
and put his own name on it, since it was very beneficial for his career.

So again "we-were-not-there" is extremely valid, since all we can do is to try and evaluate the system and
the documents it has left behind.
Since these documents all too often does not fit human memories, especially not the books they wrote,
usually putting the writer in a more favorable position than actual reality.

Human nature Franek. Militaries are also driven by that, oddly enough....:)

Since again this is not part of the topic, I will stop any further discussion on it, since I believe I have made
my points quite clear. If you feel you want to discuss this further I suggest a new topic or feel free to send
me a private message.

Cheers
Stig
PS: I also have Polish origin, but that was almost 500 years ago.....;)

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hello,
46254 is the district of Saburovo, which is somewhat northwest of Karmanovo. But these two Il-2s took off at 14.25 (13.25 Berlin time) from the Alferevo airfield (north of Volokolamsk) to reconnoiter the banks of the Volga River between Apoki and Matyukovo (east of Rzhev). The fact that they were shot down after 50 minutes of flight more than 40 km from the route target and more than 30 km south of the flight route is a very bold identification. Most of the losses of this type of aircraft still fall on the fire of anti-aircraft artillery, but according to tradition, many try to link them with the action of fighters. IL-2 Khomyakov #5310, and IL-2 Bushuev #3205. Both aircraft have not yet been found, as far as I remember.
Best regards,
Kirill

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

08/16/1942 49 IAP had one battle in 8.40 (the first flight). The task of the mission is to cover their troops in the Chern-Dretovo area. 8 La-5s (Zeskin-Spiridenko-Ochagovsky-Steshich-Sorokin-Kolomin-Karagodin-Petrov) fought an air battle with 5 He-111, 8 Me-109 and 1 Ju-87 for 20 minutes. 2 Me-109s damaged. Zeskin shot down one Ju-87 (the fall was confirmed by the commanders of the 523rd IAP and 122nd Rifle Division). Zeskin's plane (La-5 #37210105) is set on fire, the pilot is slightly injured, bailed out. Petrov (La-5 #37210225 ? or 37210111) was hit, made an emergency landing near the village of Saburovshchina, the plane was broken, the pilot was unharmed. Karagodin (La-5 #37210104) did not return from a combat mission (the pilot was captured, during interrogation he incorrectly indicated the regiment number, type of aircraft, a/f site, etc.; he survived in captivity; the plane crash site was found in 2017 near the village Vosty).

08/19/1942 one air battle is indicated during a mission to cover friendly troops in the Volkonskoye-Aleshnya-Gretnya area. 6 La-5s (Tsyganov-Razinov-Ochagovsky-Olkhovsky-Khodun-Petrov) fought in the Pavlovo-Aleshnya area at an altitude of 600-1200 against 9 Ju-88s, 3 Ju-87s, 7 Me-109s and 1 Fw-189. 2 Ju-88s, 2 Ju-87s are indicated as downed, as well as 1 Ju-88 and 1 Fw-189 damaged. Losses: Petrov (La-5 #37210111 ?) was shot down by a Me-109 fighter, crashed into the ground and burned down (seen by Khodun and Tsyganov). Olkhovsky was hit in battle, made an emergency landing 5 km southwest of his airfield, the plane was destroyed, the pilot was unharmed.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Stig
A human nature in military?
Any system may have flaws and might be prone to frauds, for sure. Nonetheless it is rather hard to assume that a reporting system was created to generate frauds. It is the purpose of propaganda to provide lies on purpose, well, more less.
I have went through hundreds of combat reports of Allied pilots mainly ETO but also MTO. I have never seen anything in kind of what you are implying, ie. writing them to satisfy the command. Quite to the contrary, they contain a lot of information about various deficiencies like imrpoper radio communication, tactical or technical advantages of the enemy, etc. Just recently I have re read a report claiming that Me 109F was a far superior aircraft in every respect, outperforming Spitfire. It is a completely different thing, what higher levels of command did with those reports, of course. Nonetheless reading intel bulletins, I had an impression, that the information was thoroughly digested, and combined with other resources to produce tactical instructions. Yet another thing is about claimed successes and reviews of those reports. Given that the Fighter Command noted, that several victories were reported despite firing from beyond the range of effective fire, there was certainly a sort of scepticism towards the reports. Still there was some policy in regard of awarding victories, seemingly quite liberal at first. I guess the command knew of actual enemy losses, and considered victories as a morale booster rather than information about enemy losses. This is my assumption only, however.
Basically, there was no interest of accepting fraudulent information on this low level, as the only one to make a profit from a fraud was a pilot filing a report for a victory that did not happen and which could give him some benefits. Another question is, if a fraud could be identified, and if it could be proven tobe intentional and not a result of a confusion.
That said, reports and memories are apples and oranges. Certainly, some are clear science fiction, and some are extremelly accurate for various reasons, either failing memory, self-promotion or even a demand of a publisher wanting a sensation. We should not consider memories relevant here, however, as we are interested in the system and not psychology.
As I undestand the point made by Johannes is, that certain pilots claimed excessive number of victories at certain conditions, well above their average. This obviously make them suspect. My point is, that victories of pilots in question should be evaluated against available documents of the other side, and if not valid a question mark should be put on victory crediting system in general. If the system bothered to investigate claims for years before crediting fraudulent claims as legitimate victories, it was not worth much, was not it?
I think it is enough and we should not detract from the original question, indeed.

Cheers
Franek

PS What is Polish way of handling work?

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Kirill, thanks for clarifying the data. Major help.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hi Kirill,
On this same day, from the 233 ShAD, 728 ShAP lort Serzhant Yuriy Viktorovich Volkov (Mia), also in the Rzhev area. Do you know the time of the mission?
Accordin to Tony Wood's list, the only pilot that claimed was Gunther Schack, but that was almost 4 hours before Stotz's claim.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hello Paulo,
08/10/1942 - 15.52-16.48 - 6 Il-2 mission to destroy batteries at the edge of the forest, which is 2.5 km northeast of Rzhev. Attack 16.16-16.23. While moving away from the target, IL-2 #3401 was shot down by anti-aircraft artillery and anti-aircraft machine guns, exploded, fell 2 km southwest of Timofeevo.
The plane crash site was found in the fall of 2021 in the Timofeevo area.
According to German documents published on the website of the Bundesarchiv, the plane was shot down at 15.40 west of Timofeevo by an 20-mm anti-aircraft gun II Zug. 10 Battarie II./Flakregiment 49 (mot.).

Kirill

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Kirill, thank you again for the help.
So it is safe to say that of these 3 losses none was inflicted by Stotz.
i know that 224 ShAD had 3 losses, while operating in the Nasovoye, Myasnikovo, Gorodok area. Can't precise where these areas are.
After making further checking I found that 611 ShAP (at the time still with 224 ShAD) lost Mld. Lt. Ivan Konstantinovich Matyukhin (Mia) in the Vetrino Novosel'e.
Can these losses be traced to Stotz's claim?

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hello, Paulo
Nosovye (Носовые), Myasikovo (Мясиково), Gorodok (Городок) - This is closer to the place indicated by the German pilot. These are now defunct settlements northeast of Karmanovo 4-10 km (now the southern shore of the Yauza reservoir).
MIA 10.08.1942:
- ml. l-t Matyuhin I.K. (611 ShAP);
- s-t Slobodenko P.P. (611 ShAP);
- Cap. Domuschey N.K. (1 AE 571 ShAP) - hit by anti-aircraft artillery, made an emergency landing in the area of Novo-Aleksandrovskiye vyselki settlement, the pilot was slightly wounded, the plane is under repair.

Mission 611 SHAP - 14.15-15.30 Moscow time; 571 SHAP - there were two missions (the first started at 14.27, the second completed at 18.10).

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Thank you Kirill.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hi Guys

With Günther Schack his Leistungsbuch gives very accurate crash-sites, I would say no doubts about time or place with him, or witness. Also he seems not to include A.S.M claims in his total, unfortunately some of his 1945 claims are vague. But I was able to calculate his total as 171 confirmed.

I should think he was a honest claimer. Kind of went of the rails in the last years of his life.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

From everything I have seen Schack was indeed a very accurate claimer and as previously mentioned, I got to interview his wingman, Karl-Heinz Nebel who was at that stage (early noughties) saddened that he had dropped out of contact.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hi Nick

I don't have all Schack's witnesses names, and indeed the last two were Numbers 136-137 on 25th June 1944, these were Nebel, the only two I have for Nebel, but obviously he could have been witness to many of numbered138-171.

Günther Josten shows(photo) Schack to be absolutely covered in bandages after being badly burnt, but still flying....seems his eyes were spared.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

[quote=kirche;325598]08/16/1942 49 IAP had one battle in 8.40 (the first flight). The task of the mission is to cover their troops in the Chern-Dretovo area. 8 La-5s (Zeskin-Spiridenko-Ochagovsky-Steshich-Sorokin-Kolomin-Karagodin-Petrov) fought an air battle with 5 He-111, 8 Me-109 and 1 Ju-87 for 20 minutes. 2 Me-109s damaged. Zeskin shot down one Ju-87 (the fall was confirmed by the commanders of the 523rd IAP and 122nd Rifle Division). Zeskin's plane (La-5 #37210105) is set on fire, the pilot is slightly injured, bailed out. Petrov (La-5 #37210225 ? or 37210111) was hit, made an emergency landing near the village of Saburovshchina, the plane was broken, the pilot was unharmed. Karagodin (La-5 #37210104) did not return from a combat mission (the pilot was captured, during interrogation he incorrectly indicated the regiment number, type of aircraft, a/f site, etc.; he survived in captivity; the plane crash site was found in 2017 near the village Vosty).

On 16 August 1942 air battle the La-5 was probably a new type fighter to the pilots of the JG 54 pilots. The larger engine was probably why they associated it with the Curtiss P-40. They had been use to seeing the P-40 in the Leningrad sector before being assigned to this sector. The LaGG-3 claimed by Stotz is curious claim as it is listed to the west of Flolowskoye (in Prien’s JFV 9/III) and as west of Grolovskoye (in Tony Woods llisting). Since there is only 3 La-5 shot down compared to 4 claims for “Curtiss P-40” it seems only one pilot either overclaimed or was allowed to share in the victory. The fact that the commander of the 523 IAP was a witness is what brings up the question about the LaGG-3 that Stotz claimed.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

11 August 1942
07:21-08:07 3 LaGG-3 of 21 IAP and 4 LaGG-3 from 193 IAP at an altitude of 2000 m patrolled in the area of Timofeevo (to Zubtsov?). They were attacked by 6 Bf 109 in which LaGG-3 (1099) pilot Solov’ev (rank and first name?) and LaGG-3 (3331) pilot Losev (rank and first name?). The 193 IAP had a LaGG-3 Glagolev (rank and first name?) was damaged in the air battle and made an emergency landing at Denesikha, were the aircraft was wrecked but pilot was unharmed.

Obfw Maximilian Stotz 4/JG 54 LaGG-3 (67) at 06:41 PlQu 47842 at 2000 m (area of Zubtsov.
Fw. Heinrich Wefers 4./JG 54 LaGG-3 (26) at 06:48 PlQu 47534 at 1500 m (area of Timofeevo)

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

On the Loss Records, could only find reference for one pilot, Starshina Viktor Alekseevich Losev, Mia.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Starshiy leytenant Glagolev Stefan Afanasyevich
Denisikha

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hi Michael,
About the pilot Solov'ev, being lost on that date, nothing comes up on the Loss Reports.
Does the Combat Report say he was lost, and how?
If so, in the following days entries is there any mention of him returning to unit? If so there is the (possible) reason for him not being mentioned in the Loss Reports.
But again, I may have missed something.....

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hello Paolo,
Pilot Solovyov, listed as not returning from a combat mission, arrived at 21 IAP on 12.08.1942. The plane crashed during an emergency landing, made due to damage in a dogfight. (Operational report dated 15.08.1942)

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Is this the one located some 55km N of Rzhev?

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Since the above talk is focused on 11 August, I'll provide some more info about this day.
In terms of aerial claims/losses, it was not a busy day in the air.
So, in the Rzhev area, apart from the fighters mentioned above, 3 VA had the following losses (according with the Loss Reports I've been able to review so far) :
- [6 GShAP, 264 ShAD] Starshiy Politruk Pavel Platonovich Logvinenko, Mia
- [6 GShAP, 264 ShAD] Starshiy Serzhant Stanislav Antonovich Voytsekhovich, Mia
- [235 ShBP, 264 ShAD] Starshiy Serzhant Aleksey Mitrofanovich Evtushenko, Mia
All 3 lost in the Timofeevo area (some 4km N of Rzhev), Tver Oblast.
- [451 ShAP, 264 ShAD] Starshiy Serzhant Petr Gordeevich Mazur, KIA when hit by Flak, N of Rzhev.
Since I haven't been able to check any Combat Reports, these are only the Personnel losses I've been able to find. In terms of material losses there may have been more losses, or not.
From 1 VA, 224 ShAD also lost one Il-2, but so far haven't ben able to confirm this one.

According to Tony Wood's list, there was only one claim for a Il-2, [5/JG 51] Uffz. Wüitsch [sic], at 14h10.
Since I don't have time for the Soviet units missions, cannot say if any of these losses can be linked to this claim.

Hans Beisswenger claimed 2x Pe-2 that I haven't been, so far, able to link to any losses.

As far as claims against fighters, other than the above mentioned ones, Max Stotz and Paul Finkler claimed 2 each during another mission, and during another mission Joachim Wandel claimed a Yak-1. All these in the Rzhev area. Still haven't found any data to link with these claims.

Another claim was made in the Kozel'sk area (Kaluga Oblast) by [5/JG 51] Ofw. Wilhelm Mink, for MiG-3.
The data is confusing here. 168 IAP (LaGG-3) lost Mladshiy Leytenant Evgeniy Georgievich Serebryakov, Mia in that area. The confusing part is that I've only found reference of him in one confusing Loss Report that those not provide a loss date. From a couple of different sources the loss date is given as the 11 or 16 August.
He had been ou
on a Recon mission, spotted a lone Fw.189 and while attacking it, he was himself attacked by 4 Bf.109s. Shot one down and apparently rammed a second. Bailed out but, accordance to ground witnesses, the Fw.189 dove down on him and severed his parachute cords.
Depending on the real loss date, this one could be linked (or not) to Mink's claim.
Hope everyone finds this interesting and helpful.

Paulo

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Paulo,
Michael correctly named, I was wrong - this is Denesikha of the Staritsky district, north of Rzhev, not far from Lukovnikovo. There were 3 VA airfields in that area.

Pilot Solovyov, I can not accurately identify - he arrived with new aircraft on 21 IAP 07/29/1942. I flew a little. He made an emergency landing again after the battle on September 27, 1942, where he was wounded. He probably flew as a wingman in pairs - the rank is probably sergeant. Perhaps he was transferred to another regiment later.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Cautiously posting on this thread but wanting to list again on Maximilian Stotz’ s claims.
On 03 December 1942 he made a claim in the Staraya Russa area in which he “shot down” a Yak-1 (101) at 12:30 at PlQu 2814. No one was shot down by Stotz at that time.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hi Michael, do you know the time for the mission in which Aleksey Kulikov (42 IAP) was lost?

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

If the time difference between German and Soviet time remains the same throughout the year (1h difference), what I mean is, if there is no difference between Summer and Winter time, then Stotz's claim time dnes not match any of the loss (as was provided by Nikita in the Beisswenger thread). Looking at Beisswenger and Xaver Mueller's claim times, the only loos that fits their times is 436 IAP's Srz. ivan Ivanovich Pokhilenko (Mia), if he was caught more or less at the beginning of his mission.
Any thoughts?

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Yes, I have the mission time but holding on to it for now as I will be working it into my Biography for Beisswenger.

As far as the time on the Eastern Front, they kept Summer time the same from 22 June 1942 until it ended in 1942. So 1 hour difference that whole time. On the end of Summer time in 1942 it changed back and was 2 hours difference. It would afterwards go back to 1 hour in the Summer time and back to 2 hours on ending for the remainder of the war.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

12 December 1942
I have looked at the Operational Report of the Staff 6 VA and Journal of the 243 ShAD.
Hauptmann Hans Hahn Stab II/JG 54 claimed an Il-2 (71) 13:58 in Prien’s JFV 9/III it is listed as north of Lake Vershinskoye but on Tony Woods list as PlQu. 29773. Claiming in that same PlQu is Lt Maximilian Stotz 4./JG 54 for a LaGG-3 (111) 13:58 PlQu 29773. The 243 ShAD reported 2 Il-2 made emergency landings, after a dogfight with 6 Bf 109. They came down in Soviet territory at 4 km SE of Berevka. There was no report of another Il-2 being shot down. The 6 VA reported 2 LaGG-3 as shot down and 2 LaGG-3 and a La-5 as missing. II/JG 54 claimed 2 La-5 and Hahn claimed a La-5 (70) 13:56 PlQu 28113 and Fw Walter Heck 5/JG 54 claimed a La-5 (23) 14:00 29781. Not clear which regiment was using the La-5. The report failed to mention the Yak-7B 42 IAP Serzhant Aleksey Kulikov as KIA in a dogfight (listed in the OBD Memorial).

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

15 September 1942
I checked the 6 VA report for this day and the areas of the claims. There were only two II/JG 54 pilots claiming in the Demyansk area.

Yak-1 485 IAP Mladshiy Leytenant Aleksandr Lavrov made an emergency landing in the area of Yablon’ka.

Unteroffizier Rudolf Gerecke 4/JG 54 claimed a Yak-1 (20) 12:05 at an altitude of 2500 m at PlQu. 28274. This matches for Lavrov.

LaGG-3 238 IAP Leytenant Mikhail Petrovich Atanov (MIA)

Oberfeldwebel Maximilian Stotz 4/JG 54
Yak-1 (86) 11:12 Tiefflug PlQu. 28114
Yak-1 (87) 11:13 Tiefflug PlQu. 28121

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

In the Loss Reports, 4 pilots from 21 GIAP were killed in aerial combat, only one flying the La-5 (find it strange because it was flown by the least experienced pilot, usually they were assigned to the most experienced ones) and one Yak from 42 IAP, also killed in aerial combat.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hi

I have no proof, but my hypothesis(based on claim dates/times) was that Hans Hahn being the Kommandeur of II./JG 54 was able to hand pick his wingman(Stotz), and that they flew as a Rotte, therefore easy to make false claims. Certainly after Hahn was captured Stotz's claims drop dramatically, but again this could just be a lull in the fighting. I was hoping it wasn't common throughout the Staffel or even Gruppe. Certainly towards the end of Stotz's time came along Emil Lang, so it looks like either Lang had Stotz's as a teacher, or it was well established within the Staffel.....though not all, Lang had two or three claiming always with him, but others appear to be unaware of his scam.

It is fact that Lang according to Norbert Hannig set out to break the record for most "kills" by an individual in a day, he had organised who his wingmen would be or each of the sorties he would fly on that day(3rd November 1943). This also would bring his total to the "100" point, it does rather stink of ste-up. It is also often the case that a pilot reaches the "100" mark with a "big day", and as we have learned it was the "big day" claimers that are usually(but not always) the false claimers.

As mentioned before I believe that Joachim Kirschner used his rank as Kommandeur of IV./JG 27 to hand pick Heinrich Bartels as his wingman.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

3 December 1942
Maximilian Stotz claimed a Yak-1 (101) 12:30, he listed PlQu 2814. I sat down and looked at all the Soviet fighter losses, crash areas and mission times. The other German pilots claiming also did not provide “clear” locations. I don’t think that Stotz actually shot down a Yak-1 as he listed. It is possible that he instead shot down a Curtiss P-40 of 436 IAP flown by Serzhant Ivan Pokhilenko (MIA) that had been performing cover for ground forces in the areas of Kaganovo - B. Stepanovo - Strel’tsy between 13:35 - 15:01 (Moscow) [11:35 - 13:01 Berlin].

This day was like putting together a puzzle with missing pieces.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

From material that I intended to write for a JG 54 history (unfinished)
21 February 1943
“The next dogfight would occur to the southeast of Godilovo and the consequences would be bad for the Gruppenkommandeur of II./JG 54. In the region of Godunov - Matasovo - Pustoshka were six La-5 from the 169 IAP led by Starshiy Leytenant Aleksandr Chislov covering Soviet forces from 10:55 - 11:54 (M). This group depending on the story states that they engaged eight Bf 109, which were later joined by 4-6 other Bf 109. In the battle Starshiy Leytenant Pavel Grazdaninov pursued after the German fighters. His wingman. Mladshiy Leytenant P.T. Balandin fell behind and was attacked forcing him to parachute from his burning plane. Oberfeldwebel Heinrich Wefers of 4./JG 54 shot down a La-5 (48) at 09:10 at 2000 meters. Starshiy Leytenant Grazhdanov during this time fought with Hahn’s group and claimed to have shot down three Me-109 (10-12) in the area of Vol’noe. Starshiy Serzhant Aleksandr Davydov observing a La-5 in trouble abandoned his position as Starshiy Leytenant Chislov’s wingman to go to it’s aid (probably Grazhdanov). Starshiy Serzhant Davydov would claim two Me-109 in this battle. During this time Starshiy Leytenant Chislov claimed a Me-109 (9) shot down to the southeast of Zosovo. Major Hans Hahn of Stab II/JG 54 shot down a La-5 (108) at 09:11 at an altitude of 2000 m. Oberleutnant Max Stotz of 4./JG 54 at the same time downed a La-5 (160) at an altitude of 2,500 m. at almost the same location.
At the same time as Chislov’s battle, Leytenant Ivan Vorob’ev was also shot down and died in his aircraft. Oberleutnant Stotz then shot down another La-5 (161) at 09:12 at an altitude 2,500 meters. During this struggle Major Hahn’s Bf 109 G-2 (# 13 949) would receive damage during the fight which forced him to begin withdrawing to get to German lines before force landing to the southeast of Zaluch’e at 09:12 in Soviet territory and was taken as a prisoner of war.
With two Soviet La-5 fighters lost and only one Bf 109 loss it is difficult to determine the victors in this struggle.”

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

The fever for Hahn’s 100th victory and Stotz’s 150 victory. (From my unfinished history of JG 54)
26 January 1943
For covering Soviet ground forces in the area of Sinyavino - Dubrovka at 16:00 (M) were five LaGG-3 from 3 GIAP KBF led by deputy AE commander Guards Kapitan Ageev at an altitude of 3500 meters. They engaged two Bf 109 over the shore and Lake Ladoga, which turned out to be Major Hans Hahn of Stab II/JG 54 and his wingman Leutnant Maximilian Stotz of 4./JG 54. Kapitan Ivan Minaev made an attack on one Bf 109 at a distance of 100 meters claiming it as a probable in the area of Sinyavino. Hahn claimed a LaGG-3 (99) at 14:00 at an altitude of 3000 m and another LaGG-3 (100) at 14:03 at an altitude of 2100 meters. Stotz claimed a LaGG-3 (148) at 14:00 at an altitude of 3000 meters. He then claimed a LaGG-3 (149) at 14:01 at an altitude of 2000 meters and another LaGG-3 (150) at 14:05 at an altitude of 2000 meters.
Kapitan Minaev’s claim for a Me-109 does not match JG 54 records and the two pilots involved had no damage listed to their aircraft. The Soviets were not the only ones with wishful thinking for a victory, as only one LaGG-3 was shot down with Serzhant Stepanov listed as missing. It can’t be determined which JG 54 pilot shot him down as his fate was not observed by the Soviet naval aviators. These claims appear to be the problem with many German pilots in the case of Hahn to reach his 100th victory and Stotz his 150th victory.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hello NOKOSE,
I do fevereshly do hope that you will be able to finish your JG 54 manuscript.
Fantastic work. Keep going and keep us updated.

A.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Adriano, unfortunately that is a task that I probably will not be able to finish. I still find Soviet records to add but they only show up piece mill. I looked into the claims for 1941 and found a large number but not enough to compare to all the claims. There were no JG 54 claims at all for the 28 August 1941, despite Soviet claims and losses for that day. Hopefully, Mikhail Timim can fill in that section of Russian aviation history.

Re: Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz
 

Hi Guys

Another "Great" pilot in the same vein and area was Erich Rudorffer who worked his little racket with Kurt Tangermann. It seems that five of his overall claims were never confirmed. Also of interest is the "over 1000 missions" FACT, I can not give an exact true figure as his flugbuch does not cover 1945, but it will be a little less than 500 in my opinion i.e one claim every two combat missions.

Kind Regards

Johannes