Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

So think I, Ruy. The thread is concerning I./ZG 1 and we should stay at the topic. The 5th Sept. 1939 is very interesting. I know I am the first one who wrote something completely different regarding the action flown by the Polish 112 eskadra. I am also the first one who is providing hard evidence with German records. The time of many Polish legends is over now.

If there really exists a document confirming the fight of 111 eskadra on the 5th at the same time as the 112 eskadra, my research should be proved again.
For now I am sure I./ZG 1 claimed here 2 victories. But nevertheless I could be wrong. So again I request Franek to show us this particular document regarding 111 eskadra.
I think it does not exist, but maybe Franek will surprise me.

If my research is correct we would have all 6 victories of I./ZG 1 for Poland (also 6 victories were stated by the Kommandeur after the Polish campaign).:
5.9. 2 P.24
6.9. 1 P.24
7.9. 3 P.37

The one probable victory I suppose on the 1.9. could be wrong, I know it well. It is possible Luftflotte 1 documents also counted the wrongly shot down Hs 126 of 2.(H)/21. At first the unknown pilot of I./ZG 1 reported he had shot down a Polish recon aircraft very similar to the Henschel Hs 126 (!!!).

Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Thnk You very mutch, Rob & Marius!

According Your information, F/O Hayes was that "brilliant pilot", who could run alive from Falck under his fire.

My sourses sayd, that:

Streib had no more claims with I./ZG 1, all rest - as Nacht Jager.

Paul Gildner had 44 night victoryes, total 48 victoryes. So, this 4 claims MIGHT be with I./ZG 1, he was a member 3./ZG 1 at that time. Need just to check...

Knacke had 44 night kills too, and he was a 3./ZG 1 member too. But I have no info about his TOTAL score.

Salute all!

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Eugen,

Try to get hold of Die Ritterkreuzträger der Luftwaffe 1939-1945, Band 1 Jagdflieger, by Ernst Obermaier - (second print 1989) -

page 56

Paul Gildner
01.02.1914 born in Nimptsch/Niederschlesien
24/25.02.1943 KIA Gilze-Rijen/Holland
09.07.41 RK; 26.02.43 EL (nr 196)
25.05.42 Deutsche Kreuz

Some info for you: - since 1938 als Unteroffizier with 6./JG 132 (later 3./ZG 1) - took part in campaigns over Poland, Norway and France. Shot down a Blenheim on 10 May 40 and a Morane on 5 June 40. On 26 June 40 his unit became part of the Nachtjagd.

Also Ludwig Becker (page 56)
22.08.11 in Dortmund
26.02.43 north of Schiermonnikoog/Northsea/Holland
01.07.42 RK; 26.02.43 EL (Nr 198 )
04.05.42 Deutsches Kreuz
02.03.42 Ehrenpokal

Belonged to 3./ZG 1 since start of the war - participated over France and his unit was transferred to Nachtjagd in June 40 - On 16/17 Oct 40 he claimed his first victory with 4./NJG 1.

Feb 43 was a costly month of the German nightfighter force.

Regards
Rob

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi Eugen,

I just found information that I/ZG1 claimed 13 victories on the 10th May.
Olt.Moeller made 3 claims and Viktor Moelders from 1/ZG2 claimed in space of one minute 2 Fokker T.V shot down. One from his claims was not confirmed and the other concerns T.V No.855 which crashed in North Sea. Another Fokker T.V was only damaged. The next victories (3?) came on the 12.05.40 (or 13.05.40?) - on this day Moelders claimed one Spitfire shot down but again this victory was not officially credited. On the 13.05.40 I/ZG1 claimed 26 planes destroyed on the ground on the airfield Hamstede.

Regards

Robert

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Great, perfect, amazing! THXXXX!

He was from 1./ZG 1, not 1./ZG 2 :) He was author of NJG 1 emblem (falke).

Moelders had 9 claims total, before he was PoW. Any information about how many claims he had until he was transferred to JG 51?

BTW: what sourse do You use?

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi Eugen,


my fingers were too fast...Of course 1/ZG1.
Victor Moelders obtained two victories by I/JG51 (the 8th and 9th).
My source is an articel from internet. I don`t remember where I found it.

Regards

Robert

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

I fount it:
http://www.jf-archiv.de/archiv05/200512031821.htm

http://www.swg-hamburg.de/Armee_im_K...s_deutsch.html

http://www.gyges.dk/heraldics.htm

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi all!

Robert - any more info about I./ZG 1 actions over Holland, or over Dunkirk?

To John Vasco - is it known how many claims had Erpr.Gr.210 during BoB, and how many aircrafts were lost?

THX to all!

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

TOCH is not the place, that Mr Cynk visits and I do not think it is the proper place to attack him personally. You could write a reply to the journal and apparently you did not.
Who are those 'many Polish historians'? Could you name at least one of them? The book is definetelly highly regarded by Polish historians including such experts like dr Tomasz Kopański, who certainly is not from the old generation.
Nobody said there are no errors in Mr Cynk's books, including himself. Nonetheless the point is, the book is about Polish fighters and not Luftwaffe and the book has no more than a single sentence about each mentioned German loss.
The report says exactly:
'Before take off I saw 7 German twin engined aircraft at an altitude of about 2,000 meters. I climbed in the direction of those seven. At an altitude of 1,500 meters I was attacked by another three aircraft of the same type.'
The report is perfectly clear.
I have checked. Those issues are raised only in the report of V(Z)/LG1 and the very same report mentions that in most cases they flew in formation of 7 aircraft. How could they fly in finger four formation, I really do not know. Another important note is that the report just only says, the pair is the minimum formation and the aircraft should not fly alone. Not a great find, known in Poland before the war as well. This has nothing to finger four and German fighters are reported to fly in sections of three well into the Battle of Britain.
Yes, and the diary of the unit filed at the very same time.
Neither Polish documents mention Me 109s. Logical conclusion is that the aggressive Ju 87s from the first combat actually were 109s.
I am in the midst of other projects that I have to finish. I will not stop working on them only because of your wish. I am slowly gathering documents for some Polish Campaign subjects as well as extensive comment on your works but this needs time. Part of the documents is on the way from England but again, time is needed, even to type on this forum. I have very little of it recently. Haben Sie verstanden?!
Otherwise I see very little purpose in providing documents, as you can write such sentences whenever you wish with regard of any part of any document. For you, Polish reports are worthless in general.
The general conclusion is that the German records are incomplete and that those data should be taken with a grain of salt. Evgeniy seems to understand that and I see no reason in continuing the discussion.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Any info about names of I./ZG 1 pilots, who claimed it?

Perfect! Any other info about claimlist of Moelders?

THX to all for help!

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

THX for info! So, he had only 2 claims with 3./ZG 1? O)r there was more?

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

A few words to Franek:

1.I (among others) criticize autor`s work or his comments or the way the autor wrote the book "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie...". This is far from personal attacks and some discussion or criticizm should be allowed in democratic countries, right?
2.The journal got a reply. And I was not the only one who wrote a reply. The problem is that the journal must stay competitive when more and more similar papers appear. Even Polish politicians are still using the simple term "we will beat the bad German again" and they are winning the elections this way. It still works in Poland very well. The journal chose the patriotic way and I understand this.

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Who are those 'many Polish historians'? Could you name at least one of them? 


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No, I won`t, because they are frightened. It is still not the right time for young Polish historians who will research in different directions. I think next generation can do it better.

I came back now to I./ZG 1 in Poland.

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Neither Polish documents mention Me 109s. Logical conclusion is that the aggressive Ju 87s from the first combat actually were 109s. 


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So the wreck of the Ju 87B with crew Berschneider/Zeidler from 9./StG 2 - shot down by Lachowicki-Czechowicz - was in fact a Bf 109? Maybe even a two-seated Bf 109?:D
You are quoting Pniak`s report again and again, where it is more than obvious that he fought with Ju 87`s. At least he was credited with a Ju 87 and this is logical, also when you additionally compare German records. No other Polish pilot reported something about "twin-engined aircraft", right?

My wish? So let me point out what you wrote earlier:

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This is just ridiculous - there are Polish documents that clearly state it was 111 Eskadra which fought against Ju 87s at the very same time. 


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Clearly or maybe not clearly?:confused:
You are referring to a Polish document, but you do not know it, because it is on the way from England? This is incredible. God save me from this guy!

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Marius - many thanks for Info...

But where did You found NAMES of pilots, who claimed victories during Polish campaign?

P.S. About 3 - airplane schwarm of german airplanes:
I dont know about earlywar, but on 3.02.42 there was a combat mission of 3 Bf 110 to airfield near Toropetz.

Also, during combat mission one of four could return because of tech problems e.t.c, and 3 other could continue flight to target.

"Kette" could appear because of many reasons, & this is not showing that "that planes was BOMBERS or STUKAS.

IMHO.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Eugen,

If you are confused by Franek, don`t mind. Franek does not like my work, because I found many German records which are clearing up with so many Polish legends. For him every German document is incomplete or even falsified when contrary to Polish pilots memories. The main point is he must not revise his own vision of air war history in Poland.

In archives, German war diaries and so on. Furthermore I worked on the complete victory list for Poland together with our expert here in Germany Mr. Bock.

Something about German terms:
Rotte - 2 aircraft (fighter),
Kette - 3 aircraft (bomber),
Schwarm - 4 aircraft (fighter).

For the 4th Sept. 1939 it is remarkable that several Polish pilots reported they have fought with formations of "3 German airplanes". No doubt, they were mainly Ju 87`s of III./StG 2. Sure, it could happen that one Bf 110 or Bf 109 had to fly back to basis with engine trouble and there remained 3 aircraft in the air. But the Luftwaffe formation of two fighters was already introduced in Spain and later taken over by other nations.

But nonetheless of this story I had 18 German victories for the 5th Sept. 1939 before I looked to the details of the mission of the Polish 112 eskadra. Official German documents are reporting of at all 20 victories for the day. So the remaining two victories could indeed be claimed by I./ZG 1 against 112 eskadra. Polish losses are confirming this. Also the account of the formation leader kpt.Opulski. And additionally I have an account of a German airman who was shot down in the Ju 87. He wrote about 2 Polish losses he observed before he had to leave the formation and forceland on Polish territory.

Here is something for you from a German document (translated into English by a friend of mine); Expieriences of I.(Z)/LG 1 in Poland 1939:

The escort is, according to availibility, to be composed from at least 1 "Schwarm" of Zerstörer formed from 2 "Rotte". The "Schwarm" should fly loosely stepped, within sight of the bomber "Staffel" at appr. the same altitude as the tail "Kette" of the bomber "Staffel".
Attacks are to be executed by the "Rotte"...
(another simple translation of the last sentence: The general operational formation is the "Rotte".).

Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Evgeniy, you are absolutelly right! Finger four formation was mythicised to some degree, but it was only one of the formations.

You are personally and frequently attacking Mr Cynk, not only on this board. This is not criticism addressed towards his book. Concerning your letter, I have asked staff of the journal to show their official position concerning your claims. I know a different story.
Indeed, death squads are chasing through Poland in search of young historians!
Seriously, how can you imagine serious research without leaving a trace in an archive? It would be known, if there is any serious research on the subject.
Have you been able to read Polish, you would find that after downing this very Stuka, Lachowicki-Czechowicz fought with Messerschmitts, according to his original combat report of 4.09.1939. Pisarek reported combat with two formations of Ju 87 and my assumption is, that one formation could have been Me 109s actually. Another pilot, Czajkowski, did not claim anything, therefore had not filed combat report.
I am quoting it because it is extremelly clear with statement twin engined aircraft. It is not my problem that you cannot understand this. I may post the original report here, so anybody could see it. Dorniers are also mentioned in the enclosed page of a diary of III/4 Dywizjon, original document filed during the Polish Campaign. It is not my problem you are not willing to accept that.
I have had never claimed, I have copies of every Polish document. The fact I have seen several documents in the Polish Institute does not mean I have them all copied. There are real piles of paper, and the one needs plenty of time to trawl through them. Now, I do not even have the time to trawl through all the papers I already have. So simple.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Franek,

??????????????????????????????????????????
This is a serious reproach. So how about a source? Title, page and so on. I am sure you can quote something "very bad"... (?). Please do it.


It seems my Polish is better than yours.:D Franek, 3 (!!) "Messerschmitts" shot at him coming from ahead. It is very interesting how you are deleting so important details. Again these damned 3 aircraft...:)
I doubt Lachowicki-Cz. correctly recognized these aircraft. He tried to get behind one, but all 3 fled at a very low level. I see no reason to believe these were Bf 109`s. The word "Messerschmitt" is clearly showing he was unable to say what it really was. Bf 109, Bf 110 or whatever?

In fact nothing is clear (even Mr Cynk is doubting the twin engined version). So how will you explain the fact Pniak was credited with a Ju 87? He should be credited with a "twin engined aircraft", right? But he was not. The twin engined aircraft does appear in the report no more. (!)
The diary of III/4 is stating about "Dorniers" what means completely nothing.
One example from German war diaries. Some crews reported Polish Curtiss-fighters or Potez 63.:D

Polish pilots reported about all types of German aircraft they had heard and mostly they were wrong. Surely for Rolski it wasn`t easy to decide what aircraft they really fought against. But to believe now these "Dorniers" had exactly to be Bf 110`s is unintelligible for me.

Another example: the original document of the Pursuit Brigade 5.9.1939, which you have declared as one among many (surely falsified (?), because contrary to what you want to have), is reporting about 3 Do 215`s. They were in fact Ju 87`s of IV./LG 1. This is nothing unusual, but showing Polish pilots didn`t know German aircraft types. There is no reason to believe, if someone wrote "Dornier" in the diary it had to be a "twin engined aircraft". In fact it could be everything.

It makes a big difference if I am reporting about a Dornier, Bf 110 or on the other side about a one engined or two engined aircraft. The sentence "two engined aircraft" appears in Pniak`s report only and at the very beginning of it.

So how can you declare here Polish documents are clearly stating also the 111 eskadra fought against Ju 87`s on the midday of 5th. Sept.? I really don`t understand what your problem is.
We both know very well that such a document does not exist. I know you have read Mr Cynk`s book. The autor mixed the action of the Pursuit Brigade for 5th and 6th Sept., because he believes more the pilots memories than the original documents (this is again not a personal attack, but simple truth and of course - criticizm). When you take into consideration German records you can get out many interesting things about the Polish action. Among others the fact that original Polish documents are not bad and surely not falsified. They are confirming what I have published. I wrote a voluminous article about the Pursuit Brigade for Kagero (Militaria XX wieku 5-2005, page 5-17). Many Poles are stating this is the best work about the unit they ever read.:p

Even if I would find the war diary of I./ZG 1 and this document would confirm what I wrote here, you would comment it as incomplete or falsified, right?
Further discussion about 4th Sept., the unit III/4 and possible claim of I./ZG 1 on this days is senseless. Your argumentation is very weak, Franek. I doubt you can convince anybody with it.

But I repeat my request for a proof about my personal attacks on Mr Cynk. And please show me your real source about the action of 111 eskadra on the 5th Sept.1939. Isn`t it just Mr Cynk`s book?;)

Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

2 Marius: thx for help, really. It seems its all clear with I./ZG 1 in Poland. If I will have any additional questions or e.t.c. - I will ask using Privat Message, Ok?

Then, many thanks to all for info about invasion in Denmark. Very interesting, really.

For now, I bought a book about Blitzkrieg in West. Now I trying to find some moments about invasion in Holland, and Dunkirk.

Also, any websourse aviable about those aircombats may-june 1940?

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

You did it eg. in the article concerning III/4 Dywizjon, you do it here.
Fired and chased that means combat anyway. Three aircraft - you escaped from the question, how to fly finger four having seven aircraft (document you quoted). You also wrote. I Agree, and that means Lachowicki clearly meant Me 109s as he was not awared of any other Messerschmitts at the time. The same way, there were Dorniers mentioned in documents, as there were no other Dorniers known, see the scan above.
Cynk wrote that the diary and high level documents for unknown reason mention Ju 87 but he finds a claim for Do 17 more likely, especially in spite of Dorniers being mentioned in other documents. His supposition is, that someone simply misunderstood hastilly written Pniak's report, especially as no particular type was mentioned there. This is either your lack of knowledge of Polish or purely your own manipulation in hope that most of the readers here cannot understand Polish and cannot verify Cynk's text. I may provide a scan of respective part of book to prove my words.
Means two engined aircraft, either Do 17s or Me 110s.
I am not discussing German diaries.
It was you, who claimed those aircraft could not have been Dorniers. You cannot provide a diary of I/ZG1 to prove they were not there either, so I assume those were I/ZG1 Messerschmitts.
There were no single engined Dorniers in the Luftwaffe and the pilots were awared only of Do 17 family. This means Do 17/215 is equal to twin engined aircraft with a twin tail. I suppose some Germans believe Poles are unable to count to two, but it is their problem, not mine.
Two days before Pniak reported a Do 17 destroyed. If he claimed a twin engined aircraft, he doubtless meant an aircraft he did not recognise as Dornier, but rather unkown type. The only unknown type used by the Luftwaffe was Me 110.
I wrote that before and if you cannot understand that, re-read the thread.
You know, that makes a difference. It also makes the difference, you never have been in the Polish Institute and never looked at the Polish documents.
If you have been able to read the book, you would find that Cynk clearly states that documents concerning 5 and 6 September are often contradictory. Also, you cannot understand, that in the book there is only a fraction of documents published. Finally, it is not true that Cynk believes later accounts more that documents. In the mentioned Pniak's case, he clearly noted he is tending to believe primary document (report) and not secondary one (kill confirmation). He is just only awared that documents contain errors, and that sometimes accounts are just more accurate. You did not notice an obvious error in the scanned document, so what is the discussion about?
Just like KTB of I/ZG1 or German combat reports? Or perhaps extracts from propaganda pieces? I have checked both your bibliography and BAMA catalogue. Laughable.
Who are the many? I found several errors there but was told it makes no sense to write a letter to the editors. I will include all comments toward this and other your articles and books in a text, I am gradually working on. Be patient.
Provide the document. Provide any document giving time of I(J)/LG2. Provide anything but your suppositions. This is the basics. Only then we may discuss any errors, like combats with Polish fighters after 17 September, when they all were in Rumania.
My argumentation is based on original documents. As yet you failed to provide any document supporting your views. You have provided no scans nor ref. nos. You stated and this is the clou of your research. It is speculative.
I wrote that before and if you cannot understand that, re-read the thread.
I am not going to participate in this disscussion any more. It is a waste of time, especially as it looks some of your unspecified personal problems seriously affect your research. Bye.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

I am closing this thread as it has lost its focus.