Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Guesswork and imagination have no place in historical research. Phrases like "it appears that" or "it is believed that" are place holders for gaps. Or "this author thinks this for the following reasons."

This is research: The event, the official documents (Air Min, Luftwaffe), secondary sources, including pilot log books, and third-hand sources, as in "We saw an American plane crash in a field by this village on this date." Nothing more. Let me repeat that: Nothing more.

As the various sources line up in terms of date and time, the greater the confidence that the event happened as described.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Dr. Taylor will be talking aobut her upcoming book on ww2tv tomorrow (Tuesday).

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I hope it lives up to the hype and does in fact come up with something totally new. I will not be watching it as I will be enjoying a meal in a restaurant in SW France

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Dr. Taylor will be talking aobut her upcoming book on ww2tv tomorrow (Tuesday).
I'm free tomorrow evening. I'll look in...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I’ll listen to this too - I’ve been really impressed with Dr Taylor when I have heard her talking about the Luftwaffe on various podcasts, so I am really hopeful that she will provide a fresh set of eyes on this well covered topic. It’s another issue entirely but I also think it’s great to see more female historians coming into what was previously very much an all male world.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

The Offizier Kasino at Mont de Marsan, no doubt.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Nope-restaurant Le Lou Marmitou just outside Mussidan😊. I look forward to what people like John V think as I am sceptical about these new and unpublished claims

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

WW2TV is a payment channel. I'll try to watch, but I'm not paying to watch youtube...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Is it? I've watched loads of them and never paid — I don't watch it live, so maybe that's the difference?

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I’ve watched it live and never paid, I am not sure that is correct John unless something has changed recently. Find out tonight I guess!

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I clicked on the vid and it came up with a pay screen. That's all.

I'll look in, if I can, and see what is said.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

This is what the blurb about the book said:
Eagle Days transforms the Luftwaffe's historical role during the RAF's 'Finest Hour' from a cartoonish antagonist to a multidimensional, flawed-yet-formidable opponent. The narrative contains not just the voices of the air crews who conducted the fighting, but uniquely never-before-translated primary source material of other contemporary eyewitnesses, (Luftwaffe's paratroopers, anti-aircraft gunners and air signalmen). Eagle Days will offer all fans of this period a refreshing, comprehensive and exciting new account of the Luftwaffe's real experiences during the Battle of Britain.

I've just spent 75 minutes listening to a general chat between the author and the two presenters, with about 4-5 questions in total from the 'chat' stream. All 'cosy' questions.

Not a single second about the in-depth content of the book, and what is new therein. She talked about the different phases of the BoB (which we all know anyway), and even got it wrong when she said fighter-bombers appeared in the later part of the BoB!

I'll buy the book to see if there is anything new in there. But I want 75 minutes of my life back! Draw your own conclusions from my last sentence...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I watched it over breakfast this morning and my reaction is somewhat more generous than John's, but not to the extent of immediately putting in an order for the book. Dr. Taylor evidently speaks German and has gone into some interesting sources in Germany. It sounded as if she'd used ADI(K) prisoner interrogations but I'll be interested to see if she's also exploited the SRA reports (covertly recorded conversations) which are the Germans "in their own words".

The discussion was, for me, too much about fighters. Stephen Bungay (who did get a mention) made the valuable point way back that the whole issue for the RAF was to bring down bombers. She spoke sense about the Ju 87 force (which, incidentally was the only Luftwaffe arm bigger at the end of the Battle than it had been at the start). There was acknowledgement that the Luftwaffe was fighting a integrated defensive system.

Galland of course featured in the discussion, but I wouldn't trust his perspective. I've come to view The First and the Last as an exercise in positioning for the post-war era, both for himself and the "old guard" of the Jagdwaffe. Yes, he was there but in that book he was, in modern terms, promoting a brand.

(P.S. John: re your point about the Jabos — I think she was quoting Galland rather than saying that was her view, but I could be wrong about that).

I'll be interested to see how far the book recognises what a dire state the Luftwaffe was in at the end of the French campaign and the work needed to re-establish its serviceability; to upgrade and get established on French bases; fit more armour, bullet-resistant glass and defensive guns to the bombers; and find enough lifejackets and dinghies for the coming overwater operations. They had a lot of work to do to get ready for a new campaign.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

My concern are these new sources. Like John V, Peter Cornwall and The like, over the past 40+ years I contacted primary sources like veterans and there are none left so what else has she turned up? Likewise flak and fallschirmjäger- what exactly was their influence in the battle per se?

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Nick: I don't believe she spoke sense about the Ju 87 force. We know that after the combats of 16th & 18th August that the Ju 87s were not used in force again, but she said they were not used because of the distance to London. What? Between 18th August and 7th September, as you know Nick, the Luftwaffe hammered at airfields, and they were well within the range of the Ju 87 had those units been based at the Pas de Calais.
As you say, the discussion was too much about the Bf 109.
I concur with your view re Galland. His post-war 'k' report (of which I have a complete copy) was the basis of his book, and was very much as you say.
I couldn't believe the mention of paratroopers and AA units. Yeah, paratroopers may come into play once any kind of invasion was attempted, but with regard to the aerial fighting over England, paratroopers had nothing to do with that. Ditto for Luftwaffe AA units.
She talked about the mental state of Luftwaffe crews. Did not the mental strain also apply to RAF fighter pilots also? Of course it did - she actually referenced the famous photo of Brian Lane. Nothing new there, and I was told stories from Luftwaffe veterans regarding this matter that I would never publish.
She also mentioned the initial bombing of Germany in 1940, and the fear of the population. What has that got to do with the Battle taking place over southern England? Absolutely nothing.
She closed by taking a swipe at Luftwaffe aircrew, and derided the fact that those who had interviewed them post-war looked on them with a certain amount of affection, as being just ordinary people. Her inference was that they were not. Her PhD was on 'The Luftwaffe and National Socialism in the Third Reich', so one might conclude here that her view was not entirely objective. I do not know whether she ever interviewed any Luftwaffe veterans - I suspect not. The likes of myself, Peter Cornwell, Chris Goss, Andy Saunders, and a whole host of others met and interviewed them, and I believe did not view them as a host of raging Nazis. She may hold that opinion of them; I certainly do not. They had a passion for flying. By dint of age and place of birth they flew for the Luftwaffe. That is all as far as I am concerned.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I can’t add much to this except to say that Victoria is lovely, I’ve met her. She did a piece for Axis Wings, and she’s passionate. Like every historian though she’s always learning new information all the time, so might her opinions change over time? I don’t know.
And this might be a sweeping statement but I think men are much more anal about the minutiae than women. Don’t shoot me down in flames for saying that!

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

It's got nothing to do with the sexes. It's about finding out facts, and presenting them. She doesn't need any kind of apologia re minutiae. It's the lack of minutiae that has led people to believe that Dowding was sacked, and the Bf 110 pure fighter units needing Bf 109 escort in the BoB (yes, one of my pet peeves!).
And I would venture to suggest that every writer on the Battle of Britain is passionate about the subject. Show me one who isn't...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

John: Yes, sorry about the Stukas. Probably truer to say that they were withdrawn to conserve the force for close support during an invasion (ULTRA tells us that 1 September orders were issued to move seven Stuka Gruppen to airfields in the Pas de Calais region, none of them more than 60 km inland).
I'd differ with you a little over the Flak and RAF bombing of continental targets in that it was in reality a two-way war, not an absolutely clear-cut issue of Germans attacking, British defending. Again it's clear from ULTRA that the Germans were very jittery about the security of their airfields in the face of the bombing. Bombing of Germany itself diverted Zerstörer assets into the Nachtjagd Division.
As for the Nazism, the NSDAP's "national revolution" sought to transform (or in my terms morally corrupt) an entire people. One of "my" veterans, as decent, thoughtful and liberal-minded a man as you could ask for told me that in the 30s he and others had been enthused/carried away (»begeistert«) by the pace of developments in Germany. Party membership in 1939 was 5.3 million and kept on rising so it would be remarkable if there weren't a lot of card-carriers in the Luftwaffe. Plus, it's hard to fight for one's country without also fighting for the people in charge. There's more about Dr. Taylor's thesis here but it's not downloadable (although you can get her one on the Dams raids).

Chris: "New" or at least less-explored BoB sources might include the 3,000+ pages of ULTRA for 1940 (but I'm working on that); the 424 Air Ministry Daily W/T Intelligence Summaries up to the end of October 1940; the 899 CSDIC(UK) SRA reports up to 12 November; the 421 daily Western Front Sitreps to 31 October at TSAMO (complimenting BAMA's Luftflotte 3 daily reports); and (if you're so inclined) TSAMo's 2,226 files on »Seelöwe« + more on that subject in their OKW collection.

Rich: If you think women are less into minutiae you probably haven't lived with a patchwork quilter (let alone one whose professional specialism was blood cell morphology) but seriously, accuracy and historical enquiry go hand in hand, don't they?

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Good post, Nick, and points well made.
However, the Nachtjagd was formed in June 1940 after some light incursions in the far north of Europe. See the chapter on the Nachtjagd in the book by myself and Peter Cornwell, 'Zerstörer, The Messerschmitt 110 and its units in 1940'. The formation of NJG 1 at the back end of June 1940 did not have a major impact on the daylight Battle of Britain.
And it is not in dispute that there were occasional raids on the Lw airfields in France.
As for the flak units, they had no influence over the day-to-day fighting over eastern/southern England during the Battle of Britain. For the life of me, I cannot understand how anyone can bring them into the equation of the Battle of Britain.
And I agree re 1930s Germany. Those young Lw flyers in 1940 had lived their teenage years in the Third Reich and been subject to the constant pressure/indoctrination of the regime.
As for this: '...Plus, it's hard to fight for one's country without also fighting for the people in charge...' I agree. As one ZG 26 pilot said under interrogation, 'My country, right or wrong'. Applies to combatants of all nations.
Good discussion, Nick.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Thanks Nick I remain convinced these sources were used though and I know you are ploughing through them. Did she consult you? I would have thought my 2 books of accounts from German aircrew would or could have been of use but I was not contacted

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Absolutely, Chris.
When I get a copy of the book, it will be interesting to see who is referenced, and who has been contacted...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Most people (more sensible than me?) are content to rely on Hinsley's Official History rather than slog through thousands of actual messages, but we shall see next week when the book's out.

No, she didn't.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Thank you John.

In case it's of interest, from ULTRA CX/JQ/93 (decrypt issued 29/6/40):

8. On 28/6 in answer to a call for volunteers for night fighters Fliegerkorps I sent in a nil return.

9. By order of Gen. Göring (28/6) I./ZG 1 (Düsseldorf) is in all haste to be used as a night fighter group. The heavy fighter groups of ZG 26 are at once to supply I./ZG 1 with one crew each (pilot and blind-flying W/T operator) capable of night flying, in exchange for a crew not so trained.

The raids on Luftwaffe bases may have been scattershot but they seem to have been very frequent and to have wound the Germans up a treat to judge from the decrypts.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Very interesting, Nick, and to illustrate the point of '9' above, an extract from the book I did with Peter C:
'...Typical of the more experienced Bordfunkers in Zerstörer units at this time, 20 year-old Rudolf Krause had already flown over 80 sorties before the opening of the Western offensive back in May. Posted to 3./ZG 26, with his pilot, Uffz. Engelbert Mail, Krause survived 22 war-flights during the fighting over France and was awarded the Iron Cross, 2nd Class, on 8th June. He transferred to the newly-formed 2./NJG 1 at Düsseldorf early in July where he flew a number of night sorties with Lt. Reese before teaming-up with Fw. Erich Puschnerus, who had requested a transfer back to day-fighters. They both transferred to 1./ZG 26 later that month and were on their fourth combat sortie together when shot down on 11th August. ..'
They were both KIA on 11th August.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Re “Zerstörer”, I’ve had it since it came out!

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Look out for the second edition coming later this year. Complete re-write & update from the first edition pre-internet days. 121,000 words & around 750 photos.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Will this new edition have the title on the spine?

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I hope so. That was a gaffe by the printer!
It is almost certain to be in two volumes, given the size of the content. Probably released slightly apart to make it more 'financially user-friendly' on the plastic card...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

John, as a big fan of your work (your Zerstorer book has pride of place on my shelf) I hope you don’t mind some feedback. I watched the livestream and was active in the chat aswell, but I felt you came across as combative, opinionated and argumentative. It was a great shame as you could have added a huge amount to the stream if you had engaged in a more constructive manner. You may not have seen, but woody posted some comments on YouTube after the livestream about your input and how disruptive it was, which was very unusual of him.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

..any publicity is good publicity ..or something like that. I am tempted to check it out now...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Siko: I posted facts.
1)She said the Stuka couldn't be used (after its maulings on 16th & 18th August) because it didn't have the range to reach London. Now, between 18th August and 7th September (the first major daylight raid on London) the Luftwaffe went after 11 Group airfields big-style! Stuka units could have been deployed in the Pas-de-Calais area and been involved in these raids against 11 Group airfields. The Stuka units had traversed a greater distance to attack 12 Group targets on 16th & 18th August. That's all I pointed out.
2) She said that fighter bomber attacks occurred later in the Battle when Bf 109 units had to switch a Staffel over to the fighter-bomber configuration. Sorry, do me a favour! The Bf 109 E fighter-bombers of 3. Staffel, Erprobungsgruppe 210 were in action from 13th July onwards.

Who is 'Woody'? Why didn't he come direct to me and put his points? If he knows who I am he can get me easily on Facebook. I will happily chat to him.

Sorry, but there are too many bleedin' wet-nellies nowadays who get offended at the slightest thing. I have done (as have others) hard-nosed primary document and personnel research (i.e. getting into archives, and interviewing and corresponding with those on both sides who took part) for decades to reach the point where I have had works published. Works based on facts (not suppositions) pertaining to the Battle. I can back up everything I say. The legal tenet of 'He who asserts must prove' has guided me over the decades in my writing, and my social media comments. I'm am NEVER going to compromise myself, nor the factual information I have, for these cry-arses!

Finally, the live stream, as you will know, moved so fast that I could not elaborate on a part-comment of mine(you are only allowed so many words and it cut off part of my posts, so you will not have seen it) on a couple or more occasions, as the stream had advanced and comments had moved on tremendously. So re your comment about adding a huge amount, sorry, that was impossible. I just sat and watched in the end...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Book received...
Pages 6-7: '...how did the preceptions of the campaign - and the prospect of an invasion - differ from these oft-forgotten Luftwaffe branches: the air signals units; the anti-aircaft units, the paratroopers that the flying arms left behind collecting dust? Then when flying multiple daily sorties for months on end, what spurred on the Luftwaffe's airmen of all ranks and designations to keep venturing over the 'pirate island': Führer or Fatherland, revenge or desperation? As the final victory over Britain became ever more elusive, how did they view the inconclusive campaign?
For as long as these questions are unanswered, our understanding of how the Battle of Britain unfolded will remain lopsided...'
So there you have it folks. The thoughts/views of personnel in Air signals, anti-aircraft, paratroopers, and all the flying crews. If we don't know what they were thinking, our understanding of how the BoB unfolded remains lopsided! WHAT! What a load of bollocks.

Let's look at page 251: '...Technically, the first significant attack by Jagdbomber (or 'Jabos' in the Battle of Britain had already come as early as 12 August 1940, when fighter-bombers of the test wing Erprobungsgruppe 210 were instructed to take out five Chain Home radar sites along the Kent and Sussex coastlines...' From my extensive research over the decades, it was four (Dunkirk, Pevensey, Rye & Dover), divided up between Gruppenstab, 1. Staffel, 2. Staffel & 3. Staffel.
Page 252: '...Thus, by the commencement of what can be deemed the 'Jaboangriff' from mid-September until late-October 1940...' Once again, WHAT! Erprobungsgruppe 210 were in action from 13 July right through the Battle of Britain. Otto Hintze, Staffelkapitän of 3./Erpr. Gr. 210, recorded 52 missions during the BoB in his Flugbuch prior to being shot down into captivity on 29 October 1940.

I will continue reading with interest.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

thanks John, eagerly awaiting your next update from 'acclaimed' author Ms Dr Taylor, if only to avoid shelling out the £20. Yes, she's 'acclaimed' in her publisher's blurb. You have to wonder by whom, other than them...seems to me that they are perhaps deliberately positioning her or 'grooming' her to be a female Beevor or Hastings..I guess that's better though than being a female Christopher Lawrence....oh and can some-one point out to her that Hornchurch is NOT on the south coast next to Folkestone..(see the map)

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Page 7: '...Eighty five years after the Battle of Britain, a comprehensive history on everyday life and death for the entire Luftwaffe during its ten-month Luftschlacht um England is yet to be penned. Thus, Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain rectifies this by providing a typical operational history of the German air force during the iconic campaign, but adopting a holistic approach that encompasses the rank and file of the infamous organisation...'

'a comprehensive history on everyday life and death for the entire Luftwaffe' has not been written, so she has rectified this by writing a comprehensive history on everyday life and death for the entire Luftwaffe! Really? Now that is a BIG claim, that cannot possibly be met.

She's writing 'a typical operational history of the German air force during the iconic campaign.' This, by her own claim, should be comprehensive. We shall see.

More to follow...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I was refraining myself (with the flaps down and speed brakes ON...really) to not get involved, but I do agree with John Vasco (from which I do have one magnific book)...I really wonder whom (WW2 veterans) this Miss interviewed or which (or how many) Flugbüche or RAF Logbooks did she consulted or cross-checked....to write "a comprehensive history on everyday life and death for the entire Luftwaffe"? Boy, she would NEED all the KTB of the Luftwaffe units and cross check all RAF ORB's + read the War Diaries of the Luftflottes and War Diaries of Luftflotte Commanders, etc.....which I doubt she consulted....Anyway....thanks John for keeping us updated about the text. It was an eye opener...

Humbly yours,

A.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I wrote two books on the Luftwaffe in the BoB using first hand accounts from those involved who I had, like John and others, written to or interviewed in Germany………

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I’m not going to judge a book I haven’t yet read, nor would I blame an author for their publisher’s hype, but I have looked through the source notes in a bookshop on two occasions now. She has used a lot of memoirs and secondary source articles about airmen but also letters and diaries from archives in Germany; SRA Reports (recordings of prisoners’ conversations) and other National Archives material; and at least one (that I noticed) Luftflotte 3 file from the Bundesarchiv. Also cited is at least one item from German Docs in Russia and a great many reels from AFHRA. That looks to me like a respectable effort. What she makes of that material is of course the next question.

P.S. If you’re going to make interviewing veterans your entry criterion then Second World War research is over, or very soon will be. Some of us were born soon enough to do that but it’s nobody’s fault if they weren’t.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Very interesting discussion - the only comment I have to add to Nick’s excellent points above is from listening to the fabulous “The rest is history” podcast. They were discussing the battle of Agincourt and mentioned how one of the best books on the battle to have been published came about from renewed research into new sources in the last 20 years (coincidentally from another female author), which is clearly some 600+ years after the events occurred! So there is hope that new angles can be found even if the participants are indeed long dead and I think it would be a great shame to close our minds to new ways of looking at old subjects.

This thread prompted me to reread John’s excellent “Zerstorer” which I am enjoying immensely, it has indeed aged well and I hope to enjoy Victorias book too in the near future-my hope is that it is complementary to his and others vast array of excellent work on the subject. I do get the scepticism and some of the criticism but new high profile books on the subject matter can only be a good thing for everyone involved in this “hobby”.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Thanks, Siko, for your comment.

Look out later in the year when the second edition of 'Zerstörer' by myself and Peter Cornwell is published. The first edition was published in 1995 (the pre-internet days - do we remember them!), and this latest edition is an update and re-write, with 121,000 words and around 750 photos.


What I have posted here so far is not, I believe, all scepticism, but pointing out errors, for example about the first attack on the RDF (not radar) stations, and when Jabos were first used. I will admit that scepticism also rears its head in my post, given the claim that her book is a comprehensive history on everyday life and death for the entire Luftwaffe during its ten-month Luftschlacht um England. I don't believe that can ever be done. I think all that Chris Goss, Andy Saunders, Peter Cornwell, and others like myself can claim is that the research that is ultimately published in book form is simply the fruits of collected information, and cannot claim to be comprehensive, for the simple reason we never were able to contact all survivors of our chosen subject. And additionally, can never mine the stories of those who were killed in action. My Erprobungsgruppe 210 book, for example, is simply that - all that I have gathered, but certainly not a comprehensive, definite, account, and I would never claim that it is. That is the hard-nosed reality of research and writing.