Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Franek;
I didn't realise that the Yugoslavs had Yak 3s. I had read something about the trials but had assumed it was the Yak 9 that was involved.

Apparently it wasn't a Malcolm hood tried on the Hurricane, my apologies for saying that, but a field conversion. According to the new Mushroom publication on the Hurricane, anyway. Although the author has not quite understood the Sea Hurricane, and has included some nonsense about a mine-exploding ring, so perhaps more careful reading of the rest of the book is called for - it looks pretty good otherwise.

Re the Dutch: I wouldn't be surprised if a Brewster 439 was at least competitive with a tropicalised Hurricane IIb, if not better at lower altitudes. It is not that the Buffalo was a terrible design, just not good enough.

I must admit being interested by these statements about Finnish overclaiming. I was told that the Finns were exceptionally strict about granting confirmation, and even perfectly normal and understandable overclaiming just did not happen. Ah well, it was a Finn that told me that. Perhaps they weren't superhuman after all.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Graham
we Finns are and were normal human beings maybe somewhat stubborn. During the Winter War IMHO Finns claims were exceptionally accurate but during those big air combats over Gulf of Finland in 1942 overclaiming was rife. During same time over Carelia Finnish claims were more accurate ie c. 50% accuracy.
The claim accuracy of Finnish aces varied wildly. For example Puhakka, Sarvanto, Kinnunen and Tani seemed to have been careful claimers but for ex. Wind, Katajainen, Lehtovaara and Tervo were rather notarious overclaimers. And also Juutilainen's claim accuracy wasn't very good. It now seems that in reality his and Puhakka's number of kills are very near each other, around 30 to both. Luukkanen being also in reality 3rd highest scorer.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Juha: thanks for that. Just to clarify, I was not making any kind of gentle dig at your nation in particular, just my original informant. (As a long term Ferrari supporter, this year is Adopt A Finn Year. But please let's not divert this thread any more than it has already.)

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Graham
They had both, but the comparison was made against Yak-3.
For me the booklet looks like a big dissapointment, although funny at times. What the other sources say about the canopy?

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

I was looking for the release of the next volume of "Dragons on Bird Wings" at Aviaeology. I saw there is a book coming out mid 2007 "Hawker Hurricanes in Soviet Skies" (ISBN 0-9780696-2-5). Does anyone know if this is going to be a history with answers or a Tech book?

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

hi, Nokose, who is the author of this book ?

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Hi Marsyao, It didn't say and I didn't find anything more then the ISBN #. I was hopeful that some one here might have heard since reading this post.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

For Graham Boak.
A footnote on thick wings and Hurricane modifications.

Several years ago I read about another thick wing that remained competitive throughout WW2.

In an article about the Seversky/Republic line of aircraft, it was reported that about 1932 IIRC a certain russian emigré named Gregor designed a wing for Seversky, that was supsequently used on all Seversky and Republic fighters down to the XP.72. The only modification was a sharpening of the leading edges, sometime around 1940.

Can such "sharpening" work? What would such new leading edges have done for the Hurricane (and Typhoon)?

Birgir Thorisson

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Hi,

I won't enter much in the subject, but only post a remark about comparative tests, I don't know how they were conducted in Yugoslavia but the French also tested the Yak-3s they had received from the USSR against the Spitfire IX, and the result was that, at 5,000 ft the Yak climbed faster, was faster in horizontal flight, mostly equal in horizontal maneuvering, but that it couldn't follow the turn if the Spit's pilot, with full power engaged, pulled a climbing turn as hard as he could, "hanging to the propeller at 120 kts/h"...

The picture seems to have been roughly the same at least up to 4000 m.

This mostly seems to correspond to the Yugoslav's test, but it may be remembered that if turning hability made a slower aircraft equivalent to a faster one, then an I-15 would be equal to a FW-190D...

Comparison tests were made by air forces with what they had, but if you look for an aircraft comparable to the Spitfire V, I think a Yak-1 or Yak-7 would be a better choice.

What must also be remembered is that Eastern Front condidtions, AFAIK, led mostly to tactical air combat at much lower level that in the West, and that aircraft suited to fighting at 8000 m are not necessarily good at 2000 m, and the other way around...

Regards,

Kolya.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

I don't know exactly how thick the P-35/P-41/P-44/P-47 series wings were, assuming they were all related in this manner, but they were not as thick as the Hurricane. In case anyone is getting confused, when a wing is described as being "thick" it is not the absolute value of thickness that is being referred to but the thickness/chord ratio. An aircraft with an elliptical wing (such as the Seversky fighters) will tend to have a "thinner" wing because of the extension of the chord out towards the wingtips.

By sharpening of the leading edge, I presume this means thinning down the first quarter of the chord in order to present a less bluff appearance to the airflow. This would probably (you're stretching the limits of my knowledge here) result in less drag, but also less lift and possibly a sharper stall characteristic.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Hm... The only VVS unit equipped with Hurricanes which took part in the Stalingrad battle was 436 IAP. In early stages on the end of July 1942. More Hurricanes were in PVO units of 102 IAD (IAP OO, 651 IAP etc.) during Stalingrad battle. They were almost obliterated till September. In July 1942 the whole division of Hurricanes comprised of 4 IAP, 287 IAP, 831 IAP and 832 IAP entered 2 VA and during the whole month it was destroyed in the fierce battles over Voronezh-Semlyansk. In summer 1942 in the central combat zone there were two regiments on Hurricanes: 157 IAP and 179 IAP. One regiment - 485 IAP on the North-western front. That is all for Hurricanes in summer-autumn 1942, exept rapid two-month tour of duty with 3 GIAP VVS KBF and remaining PVO units such as 628 IAP...
Hurricane almost finished it's combat career on the Eastern front (exept North Pole) on November 1942...

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Hm , then we have a small problem of credibility of pilot like Dolguszin from 180. IAP, he fought on Hurricanes and claimed 4-5 enemy planes on this type during the battle of Stalingrad - first phase of this battle far from the city and not over (it was on podstupiach Stalingrada). See his memories in MIR Aviacji of 1.1992. His regiment had given its few survived Hurricanes directly to 436 IAP. So pilot Dolguszin (HSU in 1942) is accoriding you a lier (?). 180. IAP sould not to have Hurricanes (?), and he had created his memories as pure fanthasy?

The same with 191 IAP, which fought over Novyj Oskol for example and claimed victories over German planes being equippted with Hurricanes see materials written by Kotienikov or Roman (both from Russia).
3-ed - there is a ghoust of commander sub-colonel Podgornovo of 235. IAD of 8. VA.

Hm, yes your opinion look then very, very strange.

Summary
Me and several others peoples are making huge errors and faults writing about "ghoust division", which according you never existed and fought in 1942 with Hurricanes or you are wrong.
There is nothing between?
Very interesting!


Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Everything is ok with Dolgushin and his memoirs. The official date of beginning for Stalingrad battle is July 17, 1942. To this date none of the mentioned regiments were combat ready exept 436 IAP. Thus, we do not have any whole equipped Hurricane division during the Stalingrad battle. Moreover, I should say that 235 IAD participated in the Stalingrad battle with regiments mostly equipped with Lagg-3s such as 13 IAP and 156 IAP.
I do not deny the existance of 235 IAD and Col. Podgornyi as its commander, but be precise with facts...

Re: Frankly, look at 1-st yourself with precise remarks!
 

OK
I know that not whole division was send just in one time into the battle but partialy. More to many times is mentioned that: 46, 180, 191, 436 of 235. IAD were equipted in Hurricanes and were in 235. IAD structure, you may see and check the link in Russian:

http://www.allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi...ruct/p_all.dat

There is mentioned above regiments and used by them Hurricanes in the "Battle of Stalingarad" - first period about VI-IX 42.

Sorry but you still "accused/sustein" to many peoples about "blidness" or "stupidness".
More info of 235. IAD
"13.06.42 г. вошла в состав 8-й ВА.
С 10.09.1942 г. входила в состав 1-го иак."

And about 46. IAP
"Летом 1942 г. входил в состав 235-й иад.
К концу августа 1942 г. после напряженных боев на сталинградском направлении в полку осталось 4-5 "Харрикейнов."

There you may fine more infor about next 3 regiments, and you still sustain your opinion about Łagg-3 in others unit. Of course there were earlier or later. In my opinion 235. IAD had different regiments including 4 ones on Hurricanes, which during the battle were used and withdrawn for re-supply and new one were put into the service. But your 1 post denaied any rights for 4 regiments being in comabts in Stalingard battle on Hurricanes - this is strange!

You still want to makes from some authors an idiots - funy?

Regards
mw

PS
See what have you personaly written, it is great precise: The only VVS unit equipped with Hurricanes which took part in the Stalingrad battle was 436 IAP.

You wants from me to be precise, but your claims are not precise and more you do not present true statmens making a mass anyway!
Sorry, frankly you do not know what you are writing about!

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

LOL.

I know that not whole division was send just in one time into the battle but partialy. More to many times is mentioned that: 46, 180, 191, 436 of 235. IAD were equipted in Hurricanes and were in 235. IAD structure, you may see and check the link in Russian:

I know this link. That is true.

There is mentioned above regiments and used by them Hurricanes in the "Battle of Stalingarad" - first period about VI-IX 42.

Sorry but you still "accused/sustein" to many peoples about "blidness" or "stupidness".
More info of 235. IAD
"13.06.42 г. вошла в состав 8-й ВА.
С 10.09.1942 г. входила в состав 1-го иак."

And about 46. IAP
"Летом 1942 г. входил в состав 235-й иад.
К концу августа 1942 г. после напряженных боев на сталинградском направлении в полку осталось 4-5 "Харрикейнов."

I know Vasiliy Kharin, whose site it is, personally. Unfortunatelly, his sources are mostly based on the open records (memoirs, history books and etc.). They are not so reliable as we wish to be. Note the date of entering 235 IAD into 8 VA - June 13, 1942. This is the battle of Kharkov. For the past two months 235 IAD was completely destroyed in the battles of Kharkov, Voronezh and other retreat operations. Thus, none of the above-mentioned regiments flew any combat sorties in the Stalingrad battle exept 436 IAP. All Hurricanes were accumulated in 436 IAP, which conducted combat duties for the first several days of Stalingrad battle from July 17 till July 26. On July 22, 1942 265 IAD was withdrawn from 8 VA and its regiments: 13 IAP and 156 IAP were handled to 235 IAD. From this time Hurricanes of 436 IAP made few combat sorties and soon were sent to rest and refit.
BTW, from what source you draw a conclusion that 1 IAK ever participated in Stalingrad battle? 235 IAD was in 1 IAK for a short time in september-october 1942. It was equipped with La-5s and was far away from Stalingrad...

К концу августа 1942 г. после напряженных боев на сталинградском направлении в полку осталось 4-5 "Харрикейнов."

By the end of August 46 IAP was already withdrawn from the frontline.

But your 1 post denaied any rights for 4 regiments being in comabts in Stalingard battle on Hurricanes - this is strange!

I do not deny. I simply know that from operational documents of 235 IAD.

See what have you personaly written, it is great precise: The only VVS unit equipped with Hurricanes which took part in the Stalingrad battle was 436 IAP.

Key words here are "Stalingrad battle". Other regiments did not live long to be combat ready for the Stalingrad battle.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Talking of Hurricanes in the Stalingrad Battle, on January 20, 1943 two Rumanian Bf 109E pilots claimed a Hurricane each over Kudinov.

Can the victims' identity be established?

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

We need to check where is Kudinov. I doubt that this could be Hurricanes as non of the units were equipped with them in VAs around Stalingrad.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Key words here are "Stalingrad battle". Other regiments did not live long to be combat ready for the Stalingrad battle.

Yes it is the key word, I think the day of begining of "Fall Blau" was the begining of operation for "capturing" Stalingrad (28 VI 1942). The first phase to capture Voronez, nextr to Don river (Don's bend) and later towards Stalingard. For me this is the period of begining the battle + phases. So it was the first pahse battle for Stalingard of capturing in Novyj Oskol railway stattion a few Hurricanes (2 at least) by German + Hungarian troops + 1 LaGG-3 more. Planes were damaged after belly landing.

Charkov's battle was earlier, a little bit.

С 10.09.1942 г. входила в состав 1-го иак."
This info comming from Vasiliy Kharin's site.

Regards
MirekW

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Mapquest found four Kudinov in Russia, all of them located south-west of Stalingrad:
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp...=&city=kudinov

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

>Yes it is the key word, I think the day of begining of "Fall Blau" was the begining of operation for "capturing" Stalingrad (28 VI 1942). The first phase to capture Voronez, nextr to Don river (Don's bend) and later towards Stalingard. For me this is the period of begining the battle + phases.

You're just completely wrong. If you want to refer to German terms, then Blau is not a Battle for Stalingrad at all. That's the plan of German summer offensive on south sector in general, including drive to Voronezh and two main offensives - to Stalingrad and Caucasus.

So, the planes which took part in combats for Voronezh and Northern Caucasus can't be regarded as taking part in Stalingrad battle.

If you will use Soveit terms, then there was a Voronezh-Voroshilovgrad Strategic Defensive Operation (28.6 - 24.7.42), Stalingrad Strategic Defensive Operation (17.7-18.11.42) and North-Caucasian Strategic Defensive Operation (25.7-31.12.42).

So, there were no those Hurricanes near Stalingrad and they didn't take part in Battle for Stalingrad.

And learn to teach on your mistakes and admit your mistakes, don't dispute by any cost.

If the researcher, who directly worked in TsAMO with the documents of that IAD, tells you something, just obey the circumstances. Because your own knowledge about subject of discussion (Soviet Hurricanes) is rather poor, doesn't matter you wrote some article.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Yes it is the key word, I think the day of begining of "Fall Blau" was the begining of operation for "capturing" Stalingrad (28 VI 1942). The first phase to capture Voronez, nextr to Don river (Don's bend) and later towards Stalingard. For me this is the period of begining the battle + phases. So it was the first pahse battle for Stalingard of capturing in Novyj Oskol railway stattion a few Hurricanes (2 at least) by German + Hungarian troops + 1 LaGG-3 more. Planes were damaged after belly landing.

I see. The battle of Moscow started on June 22, 1941, am I right???

С 10.09.1942 г. входила в состав 1-го иак."
This info comming from Vasiliy Kharin's site.

Indeed. Check in other sources where this IAK was positioned and what planes equipped with at this period.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

There are three variants: one it was Hurricane from Rostov PVO. The possibility is very dismal. Other variants that this is misidentification or overclaim

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

I see. The battle of Moscow started on June 22, 1941, am I right???


Yes you are "right" - good strategy thinking, :-)

"The Great Pariotic War" for many, many years had began, in many official and Soviet time publications of Soviet's counter-attack from Moscow - 5 XII 1941. Next steps was Stalingarad, the last one Berlin.

There were not so many information about earlier period and terrible own losses ect. So I think, that some Russian still belive in this version of WW II on Eastern Front.
I hope you do not belive, that Battle of Moscow had began on 5 XII 1941, :-)

Regards,
mw

PS
In fact one of main strategy/target for Hitler in 1941 was Moscow, next was Leningrad. So you are right, when you say, that great battle for (not of) Moscow + Leningrad had began on 22 VI 1941.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Interesting how you always try to accuse Russians of ignorance. I suppose here the perennial loathe towards Russians that some Polish people have in their minds and nothing else.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

OK, guys, let's keep it focused on information and not personal attacks.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

Interesting how you always try to accuse Russians of ignorance. I suppose here the perennial loathe towards Russians that some Polish people have in their minds and nothing else.

NBE1942, I do not know how old are you but your last claims is quite strange (?!). There was in offical Polish WW II history (state's level, period 1948-1990) such a "code/mode" of presenting the facts about GWP and - "nothing" between. Probably you are to young (you as a boy or girl) to undrestand, what was the censorship and how big influence had Soviet Union on on other states before 1989/90. For small example: there was several books in Poland about WW II history, which were destroyed after political intervention of Soviet ambassy in 70-ties. The books such terrible special, was even written by our party members (PZPR).

It was general policy of censorship for many not good (true, obiective information) about Soviet-Russian in WW II history and not only. It was such doctrine in whole ex-Soviet block. This policy was also in Soviet Union (compare the books from Chruszczev era and Brezniev one, or later).
So your last claims shows, that you are very young and do not undrestand this part of very modern history (1945-89). It is your problem and lack of knowledge about delibertate creation of history WW II.

Regards,
mw
PS
So it was not any kind of ignorance, but deliberate long-term policy of censorship, introduced in whole ex-Soviet block like Poland from 40-ties.
Probably (you are to young) and belive, that in Soviet Union or other ex-Soviet block were a freedom of speech or not censored books, not censored magazines, TV ect. Mihail Gorbachow (probably his name is unknown for you too) had introduced the glasnost policy (in 80-ies), which was first step of breaking the policy of total censorship in ex-Soviet block, including in Poland.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

A friendly, but final, warning from the forum moderator.

I won't stop this thread, but I will end any further dilution of the original topic.

:angry:

Please return to the original and certainly interesting discussion.

Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
 

I found an additional info on the incident. The pair of Rumaian Bf 109Es flew in the Bataisk-Manitschkaja area. Is this of help to identify where is Kudinov?

Both victories were confirmed by Rumanian air force (ARR) HQ. This, of course, doesn't mean that it could not have been aircraft type misidentification, or overclaim.