355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Gents

I am interested in finding any information I can concerning Rolf Steinke of 12./JG3 as I am about to purchase his award documents.

Can I take it from the information in this thread that Steinke was shot down and killed by a USAF pilot of the 355 Fighter Group?

If this is indeed the case, is there any way of putting a name to this USAF pilot?

Any help or pointers in the right direction really will be very well received.

Hopeful in anticipation.

Regards Richard.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

This appears to be an old thread but a note.

On 24 April IV/JG3 was still equipped with ME109s; it didn't convert to the FW190 until mid-May; the 190s encountered were almost certainly from Sturmstaffel 1 (which listed loss of 1-Uffz Heinz Steffen). II/JG1 was engaged around Strasbourg-Hagenau around 1245 and lost two 190s.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Re 29 April the 355th filed one claim on this date, by ace Henry Brown over a 109 near Brunswick at 1145; Steinke went down roughly two hours later.

Other P51 groups:
4th FG filed no aerial claims (over fighters).
352nd filed two, 1-109 and 1-190; I don't have location data.
355th per above
363rd (9th AF P51 squadron) filed no claims
357th filed no claims

The only other P51 equipped group in the ETO at this time was 354th FG, but unfortunately I have no info on their activities this day. I'd lay odds that the 354th is the outfit that shot down Steinke.

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hi guys

Here are additional details of the losses concerning a couple of the pilots that Bill listed in his opening post. I hope this information is still useful after all the time that has passed since then!

Sigmund: in Bf 110 G-4 "D5 + AD" (W.Nr. 5560) southwest of Göttingen along with Bordfunker Feldwebel Hugo Bauer and Bordschütze Unteroffizier Johannes Dittrich
Mertens: in Bf 109 G-6 "White 1" (W.Nr. 161 358) over Andernach after ramming a B-24 four-engined bomber, bailed out wounded
Segatz: in Fw 190 A-7 "White 23" (W.Nr. 430 315) south of Luckau by fighters
Harloff: in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 16 527) over Grosskitzighofen by P-38 twin-engined fighters
Roisch: on 28 July 1943 in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 15 411) over Lexmond, southwest of Vianen

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Roisch was almost certainly downed by 4th FG.

Lt. Duane Beeson- 1 ME109 1210-1220 Westhooft-Emmerich area
Capt Roy Evans- 1 ME109 1155 15mi (25km) w of Arnhem
Capt Carl Miley- 1 ME109 1200 east of Rotterdam

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Interesting report/possible link from 363rd FG pilot Morton Kammerlohr

"We were a little southwest of Berlin when the bombers we escorted started their bomb run...we had started our climb, when he (1stLt Frank O'Connor) called me again to alert me of a FW190 at 12 oclock high and for me to serve as a decoy by turning in front of him to get his attention, so he could get on his tail. It worked perfectly; when O'Connor was ready to blow him away, he told me to make a hard left turn. The FockeWulf pilot didn't know what hit him; down it went..."

Lt O'Connor's claim is listed as "50 miles (75Km) sw of Berlin".

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Richard - I did not see this until today.

No, not likely a 355th pilot - more likely a 352nd FG score in the s. Haldensleben area (Me 109) by Cpt E.L. Abbot. The 354th FG got their scores in the Gardelegen to Brandenburg axis so they were further north and escorting the 2nd BD B-24s.

Equally probable - downed by B-17 in Magdeburg area.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

You are right about IV/JG3 still flying 109s..

FYI - The 1245 encounters were JG1 and JG 11 along the Frankfurt-Worms axis (and Mannheim to Ludwigshafen) - all 4th FG Mustangs.

Sturmstaffel 1 (Steffen) Fw 190 was lost to LtC Dix of 355th ~ 1320 in the general Burgheim area. Another Sturm Fw190 was damaged by 355th n. Munich. Apparently Steffen saluted Dix when he bailed out.

Dix is also the probable shooter of Franz Schwaiger sw of Regensburg after a long chase.

The combined 355th and 357th FG lost three Mustangs to Me 109s and possibly one to a Me 110 if Steiner See is same as Lake Wessling. 7./ZG26 claimed a Mustang at Steiner See. Two other P-51s were lost colliding with their Me 110 victims so it it is possible that the Steiner See award was made on the basis of the collision... the two P-51s that 357th lost to MaC were ene of Munich in the Landshut/Erding area.

In all the Woods list has 8 Mustang/1 P-47 awards in Munich area (not possible for any P-47 to fly east of Mannheim) plus four 'supplemental claims'.

Total losses in fighters air combat with Me 109s were four P-51s (three in Waldkraiburg to Muhldorf area, one at Lake Wessling) and two to MAC w/Me 110s of ZG26 (which are not in Woods lists unless the ZG26 claim references a MAC award).

Dahl's claims 'raum Munich' to not seem anywhere close to actual losses.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Dear Bill,
I would like to mention the engagement that occurred on April 20, 1945 in the vicinity of Prague, Czechoslovakia. The group's opponent was probably III./JG 27.
Regards, Filip

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Thanks Filip - were they based at Kbely? or Letnany?

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Definitely at Kbely but it is "Letnany" what was mentioned in the NMR.
F.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Gents

I really appreciate your input into answering my question concerning the downing of Rolf Steinke on 29-Apr-44. As a result, I have a couple more questions on the subject:

Is it known whether the claim by Cpt. E.L. Abbot can lead to a positive ID as the pilot who downed Steinke? Has this claim been attributed to another Jagdfleiger other than Steinke?

Also as indicated, he may also of been shot down by defensive fire from one or more B-17 aircraft. Are there any records which can be explored detailing the claims of B-17 crews? I do appreciate that this may be an impossible ask however, from where I am sitting it is worth asking the question.

Thank you in anticipation.

Regards Richard.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Richard,

I did a quick check in Herr Prien's unit history of IV/JG3.

IV/JG 3 flew two sorties on 29 April 1944. After assembling with other gruppen in the Magdeburg area it engaged B17s between 1100-1120. The aircraft it attacked were coming from Brunswick and had an escort of "40 Mustangs" (roughly a group). They claimed 5 destroyed and 4 separations.

After this attack the group landed at Salzwedel where it refueled and rearmed then attacked a B24 wing near Gardelegen claiming several more separations at 1320. No mention of an escort

For the entire day IV/JG3 lost 3 ME109s and the attached Sturmstaffel lost 5 FW190s . Contrary to my previous post, Prien's loss list for IV/JG3 aircrew is silent on the time of day of Steinke's downing.

Abbot would appear to be the best possibility to have encountered Steinke, other than a bomber gunner.

352 FG
 

kb

Thank you very much indeed for the additional information concerning IV./JG3 and Rolf Steinke. This has helped immeasurably in allowing a picture to be formed around Rolf Steinke's last day.

I take it from yours and previous posts that the FG providing escort cover in this axis of Operation was indeed the 352 FG?

This being the case, are there any pointers as to where I can look to see which BG's on 29-Apr-44 and were consequently covered by the 352 FG?

Any help in this matter really will be very much appreciated indeed.

Regards Richard.

Re: 352 FG
 

Abbot was leading 328FS/352FG on this day. He could not locate his assigned B-17s (almost certainly 3rdBD- 1st TF) attacking Berlin, then Magdebird. He led his squadron down to attack airfields. He led the squadron west from Neuhaldersleben and encountered a 109 coming from west to east..

He shot it down but it was too low for the pilot to bail out and it crash landed at high speed.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

He managed to bail out but was too low for his parachute to deploy.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

"..and I followed, hitting him with another burst. Right after that he jettisoned his canopy, preparing to bail out but the aircraft was too low to the ground. His aircraft then hit the ground while still doing 250mph and tumbled along while pieces flew in every direction."

quote page 69 Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney.

Kb - was there another eyewitness report saying he actually bailed out?

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

[quote/]Kb - was there another eyewitness report saying he actually bailed out?[/quote]

The loss record says crashed 1 km southwest of Magdeburg. FSA= fallschirmabsprung (parachuted), zu tief (too low)

Who knows, perhaps he was thrown from the plane on impact and his parachute deployed then?

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

The loss record says crashed 1 km southwest of Magdeburg. FSA= fallschirmabsprung (parachuted), zu tief (too low)

Who knows, perhaps he was thrown from the plane on impact and his parachute deployed then?[/quote]

Gents

Thank you for your continued help with my original question concerning Steinke.

Before I get too excited and declare in my mind that it was definatly Abbot who shot down Steinke, I would like to go over a couple of points with you both:

The axis of operations around Magdeburg where Steinke came down was definatly covered by the 352 FG? Is it possible another FG could of been operating in that area?

As IV./JG3 lost 3 Bf-109 aircraft on 29-Apr-44, could Abbot's kill possibly be one other than Steinke?

I have to say, with what has been posted already, I am hoping against hope on this one that it was Abbot however, I really am in the hands of you people who obviously have a wealth of knowledge on the sunject.

Gents, please put me out of my misery here, can all angles be covered in pinning Abbot's kill on to Rolf Steinke?

Your continued help really is appreciated.

Regards Richard.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Gents

Thank you for your continued help with my original question concerning Steinke.

Before I get too excited and declare in my mind that it was definatly Abbot who shot down Steinke, I would like to go over a couple of points with you both:

The axis of operations around Magdeburg where Steinke came down was definatly covered by the 352 FG? Is it possible another FG could of been operating in that area?

As IV./JG3 lost 3 Bf-109 aircraft on 29-Apr-44, could Abbot's kill possibly be one other than Steinke?

I have to say, with what has been posted already, I am hoping against hope on this one that it was Abbot however, I really am in the hands of you people who obviously have a wealth of knowledge on the sunject.

Gents, please put me out of my misery here, can all angles be covered in pinning Abbot's kill on to Rolf Steinke?

Your continued help really is appreciated.

Regards Richard.[/quote]

First - Kb either scenario works for me - high speed crash landings frequently threw the pilot and as he had punched his canopy at the very minimum he probably had loosened his seat belt/harness.

Richard - IMHO there is very little chance that one could match Abbott to Steinke unless a.) this location near Magdeburg is pretty close to Neuhaldensleben airfield and b.) no other 109s went down that close to same claim/award location to perhaps B-17 gunners.

As there was no other Mustang/109 claim against JG3 attacking B-17s in Magdeburg area it is probable that B-17 gunners actually matched a claim to two 109 kills if two or more IV./JG3 went down in that area..There were however credits for 109s from Brunswick through Steinhuder Lake to Stendal, Brandenburg and Berlin

ALL the other 109 credits (including 9th AF) were essentially in a straight line from east of Hannover to Berlin area. Only the 352nd FG were awarded a credit for a 109 and 190 in the general area of Magdeburg south of Berlin...

Last answer to question. The 328FS/352nn FG led by Abbott probably assigned to escort the smaller strike force of the 3rd BD attacking Magdeburg. There were too few long rang escorts to devote more than one group to a 'branch target' when the main target was Berlin... so highly probable that the 352nd was the assigned group to the attacking 381st and 447th BG's.

This was one of the 8th BC worst days (comparable to May12) for poor navigation and route execution. Several FGs orbited for close to an hour (including the 355th and 352nd at theri assigned R/V points waiting for their bombers to show up.

If you can get your hands on the 8th AF Fighter Command Mission Summary for 8th FC FO 320, it will be a complete roll up of all the individual FG assignments and results, including 9th AF and RAF units involved...

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

I doubt given the passage of time and fragmentary information on the circumstances of Steinke's demise you'll ever be able to reliably link Abbot to Steinke.

Steinke may have indeed been Abbot's victim, or could have been attempting to nurse a damaged aircraft to an airfield from an engagement along the bomber track further north.

You might want to try sending a PM to Herr Prien, who is a member of this forum; perhaps he has some more definitive information.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

As for the demise of Segatz the 4FG webpage offers 1/Lt. James D. Dye as another possible victor apart from O´Connor, see http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/re...stokesart.html

Jan

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Gents

I really appreciate your help with my questions concerning Rolf Steinke.

Steinke's aircraft crashed 1 km SW of Magdeberg, yet (according to Google maps) Neuhaldersleben where Abott shot down his Bf-109 is 23 km NW of Magdeberg. Is it conceivable that in the time it took to engage Steinke's aircraft with 2 seperate bursts of machine gun fire, that his aircraft could travel that distance?

I need to ascertain from Herr Preins IV./JG3 book the details of the other 2 Bf-109 aircraft lost that day. I shall PM Heer Prein to maybe see if he can shed any light on this matter, he may be able to help so it is worth asking the question.

I may not be able to pin the kill claimed by Abott onto Steinke as his victim however, I want to cover all angles in determining as much as I possibly can.

Finally, can you give me a pointer as to where I can start to look for the 8th AF Fighter Command Mission Summary for 8th FC FO 320?

Thanks again Gents.

Regards Richard.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

USAFHRC at Maxwell AFB, AL - Lynn Gamma for first place to start

On the first question I would think so. Abott saw his victim after leaving the airfield heading west. He shot, then turned around to chase him heading in opposite direction.

If Steinke was heading ~ se then turning around, chasing and closing to shoot again could easily take 12 miles at 300 mph? ~ 3-4 minutes

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello Richard

Unfortunately it appears that not much is known regarding the other two losses IV./JG 3 suffered on 29 April 1944 as both pilots were not casualties. The loss list simply states the following for both losses:

IV./JG 3 NN - Luftkampf, Ort unbekannt, 100% Bf 109 G-6

Perhaps someone else can add additional details if new information has been uncovered.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Richard - start here http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Gents

Thank you very much indeed for your continued support through this.

It is a shame that there are no additional details concerning the IV./JG3 Bf-109 losses on 29-Apr-44, other than Steinke. It may of proven fruitful.

I shall indeed approach USAFHRC at Maxwell AFB (thank you for the link) and I will report on any positive findings here.

Thanks again.

Regards Richard.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

I can confirm Lt Kurt Roisch flew a BF109 and was wounded in combat on July 27th 1943 and was able to eject from the plane but was burned badly and then died on July 30 1943

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

7/28 Kurt Roisch JG3 (WIA where?)
WIA - Shot down and wounded over the Nort Sea then bailed out and was severly burned and died of those wounds