If it's only for research, why couldn't Ed simply save the pics in a little rar file put on Rapidshare, as a safety measure? This way, the researchers will have easily all the pics, even the 0,1% of the ones, whose auction links don't last many weeks. For me, as a lazy one, it would be a very good solution to download, once a week for instance, easily and in one time all these beautiful pics. By the way, if it's only for "research", the bidders who succeed in winning these pics could for instance upload here big-size scans, this would be perfect for "research" ;-)

And if it's only for "research", there's also the solution of this Polish forum: http://www.odkrywca.pl/pokaz_watek.php?id=115351 Of course, if the guys who are against the current system, are not OK with these solutions perfect for "research", it's quite possible that "research" is not their main reason ;-)

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Nemo, give me a break! I am a researcher, and an amateur one, to be precise (meaning that I have never earned a living with my researches).

I have never and will never bid for a photo, both because it is against my concept of research and because I cannot imagine to spend insane amounts of money (which I don't even have) in this way...

Nevertheless, Ed's postings have allowed me to contact in some cases the owners of particularly relevant material for my researches and obtain from them electronic scans of the photographs, once explained who I was and the purpose of my request, which would never harm their sale.

You seem to think that all the rest of the world is composed by "too smart" guys who want to gain advantages to make their collection bigger, but I cannot accept your way of thinking as well as the conclusions you make.

If Ed will stop posting the links to the photographs, he has all rights to do so, as well as I have the right to ask him not to do that. What I cannot stand is that you should imply that my request (together with those of many of us) means I'm begging to continue to use illicit advantages or worse...

The world isn't in black and white only, just for your very own knowledge.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

"If Ed will stop posting the links to the photographs..." If I've understood everything well, Ed will not stop to post the links to the photographs, he will just post these links, after the auctions are ended. So, always if I've understood everything well, you will still be able to contact the owners of these pics and obtain scans of them. No?

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Ed goes above and beyond the call to post these links. I applaud him!
It isn't his responsibility to save pics to a .Rar file for us to download later.

If you can't afford to collect old aircraft photos Ed's lack of posting isn't going to fix it. Try another hobby. I can't afford an F4U Corsair, but I don't blame someone else for posting an ad for one.
Thats the real world like it or not, everyone can't own a Ferrari.

Jeez,
Mike

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

No. Because in most cases, the owner could have already given the photo to the new owner (and it would be extremely incorrect to to give his name) and so there would be nothing to have a scan from... unless you think that the owner still keeps for himself copies of the photographs, which would be incorrect too...

By contacting the owner while is still in posses of the original, the possibility of having a reply to request is much, much bigger. But what I am wasting my words for? After all, you are speaking of money matters, not of research (which, incidentally, is instead the reason why most of us are reading and writing here in the first place).

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

I heartily agree with the majority here and would implore Ed to carry on doing what he does so well. If some have issues with it, then they should not really bother to come to this forum - or at least ignore Ed's posts. I think most of us simply enjoy the sight of the mass of new and interesting photos that are on show. We're just looking, and enjoying looking. Issues about money, etc. are seperate.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

If I buy a pic for a lot of money, for instance for an editorial projet, I would not be so happy, if the seller gives big printable scans of this pic to other guys. I don't think it's very fair and most of the sellers, to say the truth, don't accept to do this, precisely by respect for the buyers (1). But if this pic is only for research purpose or personal archiving, the images from the Ed's links are quite sufficient. (1): one of my preferred sellers has written this on his page: JE NE REPONDS PAS AUX DEMANDES DE SCAN OU DE REPRO DE MES PHOTOS, PAR RESPECT DE L'ACHETEUR. VOUS POUVEZ COMPTER SUR MON SERIEUX ET MA RAPIDITE DANS LES ENVOIS. MERCI DE VOTRE FIDELITE !; (quick translation: I don't answer to the scans asks or copy asks of my pictures, by respect to the buyer).

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Sorry, Revi16, but I still don't understand the problem: the pics found by Ed will still be available for research, but just after auctions have ended. So, what is the problem for the guys who don't bid on Ebay, I really don't understand it.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Hi Nemo,

you are absolutely right. Most of the members who don't want the change
of Ed's list would never bid at ebay - without John, I know him for a while,
greetings to Liverpool!
But the same people criticise us for buying and publishing expensive
photos because they know the photos from this board or somewhere else
as well known and published before. Some laugh about us because they
pay a few funds for a scan of the same photo we've bought for very hard
prices. Or they publish these scans or ebay thumbnails before to be a little
bid faster. Please have a look at most actuall "well researched" publishing
work. But this is off-topic here.
I think we should accept Ed's idea - we all don't know what kind of
messages, offendings, requests - whatever - he received in the past.
So guys, be happy that there is a man who is spending his time to
offer this service to all of us, it doesn't matter if he list auctions which
are ended. If some of you want bid on photos, you know the typical
keywords for searching at ebay! That's really simple. Now I hope
that I can gather some Bf 109 photos for less than 500 Eur :)

With the best wishes,
Sven.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

As long as there will be people ready (all too often) to spend insensate amounts of money just to own "the original print or negative", no scan will do any harm to them. To be interested in images does not always mean to want the "exclusive property of them" and looking for "workable" sizes (not thumbnails) means often to be able to study them in detail looking for that detail (a serial number, for instance) that sometimes is only barely visible in a corner.

Research is made of details and knowledge, not of money or collections. As long as there will be people capable of knowing the difference and not thinking that the world is only a "shop", I'll be fine.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

The problem isn't with the people who "don't" bid on ebay, the problem is with the people who "do" bid on ebay and think that they are going to get a deal if Ed posts links after the auction has closed.

I gaurentee you when I bid on something that I want on ebay, I don't lose. Doesn't make a difference to me if Ed posts it or not. I'll just win it for less money, which really isn't an issue when one is rounding out a collection.

Here's a simple example, among other things I collect F4U Corsair items. One day on ebay a F4U factory manual shows up. I take note of it and wait. The auction winds down, I bid $500 in the last few seconds and get the manual for $12.50 because 4 other collectors tried to get it for peanuts. Putting in $2, $4 & $10 bids isn't going to cut it. I was willing to pay top dollar to complete my collection just like Sudek13 and others. If it's something I want, price doesn't matter. Especially with one of a kind pics, books, militaria, etc..

Keep posting Ed, before the auction ends. It's already the 28th we're due!

Regards,
Mike

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Unbelievable, you also could compare apples and oranges...

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Fernando,

I'm surprised that you have said this. As you are both a researcher and author, you will know that when you undertake research, it does cost money to pursue a research project to its conclusion, whether that is by trips to research institutions, trips to see other researchers, or trips to see veterans. And 'collections' are the lifeblood of any research project, since it is mainly collections that researchers delve into to find the relevant photographs for their work. In the process, researchers build up their own collection, either of original prints, copies of prints, or a mixture of both. The other thing research is made up of, which you do not mention, is time.

I would not want readers to think that authors have books published at no cost to themselves. In a lot of instances, their own costs actually outweigh the return.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

John, I obviously meant "not for making money" or, more generally, not as a field to exercise our individual economical power.

I thought that my thinking was clear from the things and concepts I had written, but there is always the need to specificate further...

As for money spent in researching, it is certainly a lot, but diluted in doing things, like meeting people, visiting archives, duplicating, and so on, not certainly in throwing packs of banknotes in eBay for prints or negatives.

May I say "always"?

But let me add that I wasn't speaking of that. For all the thing you say, I agree with you.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Fernando,

Yes, you are right. I was shocked when I totalled up how much I had spent over the years doing research. And the time put in to just a single book is incredible, as you know.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Very well said, John. If I can get even after one of my books has been published, I'm satisfied (financially, that is). Usually, however, this isn't the case. And eBay plays a major role in this...

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Well guys, if you talk about Bodenplatte than I spent approx 15x the amount that I got in return...... but hell, that is only talking about money. I think I got much more in return from doing the research.

cheers,

John.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Ed

I also appreciate your searches and posts. Sometimes I put in a bid, the majority I do not. What is invaluable is to have the opportunity (when I have so little time), to spend a nice 10 minutes to have a look at the photos to basically expand my know how on so many different aircraft types and markings. It is like looking at a new photo book in the library.

I am still hoping that a photos might surface one day of one of the aircraft recovered from Russia over the last 15 years.

As for research versas reward in publication. For myself I spend 5 years (hundred of hours) researching Hurricane P3351 to only write an article at the end. I did enjoy the genealogy in relation to locating pilots and families - it is not only about the money. Everyone has hobbies - I cannot understand people who spend every weekend travelling to football matches or hours spent fishing - but that is me. I am sure they would say the same about what most of us do with regard TOCH.

Just my 2p worth. I do agree with John and he said it so well! What Ed does is for the benifit of the majority and does not have any effect with regards to ebay sales or prices!

Ed - keep on going. The majority appreciate it.

regards

Mark

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Gentlemen,


I will continue. You can see that my post of 3-24 is available and still shows almost all of the listings (assuming perhaps that one photo was sold early and one is maybe an error). My goal is not to help people make money on eBay but to make the images available to researchers like yourselves. Of course, those who do not want to wait until I post can look all they want. Nothing is preventing anyone.

As soon as the current batch of listings close, I will post them. That's it. Once that process is started, I will be back to posting regularly as auctions close on a particular batch of photos and related.

And thank you, everyone, for your kind words.



Best regards,
Ed

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

I am one of the (pretty active) buyers of photo's on Ebay and I have never regarded any listings of auctions by Ed as a thread to any potential buyer !!!

The only thing I didn't like was the postings of people asking to identify certain types of planes up for sale.

Mind that I say "didn't like" but that doesn't mean I protested against it or did demand for anyone to stop such action.

When you discover a really rare photo on Ebay because you are able to recognise such rarities, you don't want everybody's attention drawn to that particular auction. The Internet is a very large community and there will always be someone else who can recognise that certain type of plane.

But I really don't see any harm of postings of listings of active Ebay-auctions, because anyone can search for them.

The only problem is that some of you simply don't have the time to look through every page of Ebay everyday.

And that's where Ed's postings were very helpfull.

Mind that the members of this board are all dedicated fans of WW2 aircraft. Any new photo (despite copyright stamps) are welcome and help many researchers. And when dedicated researchers get new inspiration to make a profile (based on a photo shown on Ebay) we will benefit from it.

I vote for continuing Ed's postings of all active Ebay auctions.

Btw, some of you may know me but many of you don't. Let me say that I have no financial interest by asking (not demanding) to refrain from identify aircraft from active auctions, because I have never asked a single penny for using my photo's for publications and when you surf the AAW forum you can see I share a lot of original photo's.

The only reason why I don't share more photo's on this forum is the restriction of the number of photo's or the size of the photo's on this forum.

The moderators of this forum should really resonsider these restrictions.

Regards,
Jan

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

hi all,

for any of you that don't know Jan, he is one of the good guys out there, his photo collection is fantastic.

hi Jan,
i knew you was not one of the complainers, but it seems strange that Ed won't name them. spotted one of Sky's listings, as soon as it was sold, the image was removed.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

I am not naming names since the real issue is to see what effect, if any, will occur if I post links after the auctions close. My goal is to assist researchers, not buyers and sellers on eBay.




Regards,
Ed

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Thing is, Ed, researchers are also buyers. I got a great 110 photo recently at a ridiculously low price. Puzzled as to where the man was on that one (and many others recently). It simply means that I have a great scan for the project I am working on. So your action, while I totally respect any decision you arrive at, may turn out to be a double-edged sword, disadvantaging in a way some researchers who have benefited in the past from your previous modus operandi...

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

You have a point, John. I'll start up again today.





Regards,
Ed

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Thats fantastic Ed!
Im sure i speak for many people on this site, by saying thats the the best news all week.
Please continue to post your E-bay listings,
your efforts are really appreciated!!

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Hi Ed,

that's the best decision you could have made.

I am not speaking on behalf of myself for this decision, because I am retired and have all the time to look through all the Ebay-auctions.

But we are all interested in aircraft of WW2 and when we buy a book we all hope that the profiles of planes depicted in the book are based upon actual photo's and not some artistic (fantasy) products of the makers of the profile.

Posting listings of active Ebay auctions will not influance any of the auctions. Big buyers such as Sudek13 have many inbetweenmen and they don't need your postings to find photo's of aircrafts.

What is damaging to potential buyers is the discussions about these photo's.

Some photo's may not seem so special, but when discussed it can make them special.

But that is not your problem.

You have been in the past and hopefully also in the future a great help to the WW2 aircraft fans by pointing out interesting auctions on Ebay.

By doing that you have helped many researchers to let them make profiles that are based on real photo's and not fantasy impressions of artists.

All the previews at Ebay are of help for researchers and artist, despite of all the copyright stamps.

When you are a profile-artist it makes a big difference if you will have to make a profile based on some guesses or based on an actual photo of the aircraft.

Regards,
Jan

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Thank you, Jan.




Regards,
Ed

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

I must say that I'm a bit puzzled by the discussion on weather or not to publish links to e-bay photos before or after the auction is over. Despite being full time working and father of a 18 month son I check all e-bay auctions of interest to me. Ed's links very rarely lists any photos of the aircraft I'm interested in (don't know why :-) so I couldn't rely on his excellent service to satisfy my needs. And when he does list them, the prices are not higher than what I would have expected anyway. It is my conclusion that it doesn't matter if 30 or 350 people have looked at them.

I know who my competitors are and they find the same stuff as I do (all the time - damn it!). By judging what type of photo it is (of the aircraft type that is of interest to me) I can more or less make a list of who will be bidding and in what region the end bid will be. My conclusion is that Ed's excellent efforts doesn't really affect the prices on e-bay - its a bonus to all of us.

How ever I do enjoy to look at Ed's links now and then just to see some nice photos which I probably wouldn't have looked at otherwise but they doesn't make me buy anything that I hadn't located myself.

As Jan point out the discussions started are very interesting and in some ways are similar to the ones in the Luftwaffe Verband magazine.
/Mikael

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Thank you, Ed, for the past week. During these few days, it has been again possible to buy interesting pics at reasonable prices (1), by doing a little homework on Ebay. A pity it didn't last, because the fun of searching and bidding was there again (all this is a little bit like the collection car market which went crazy ten years ago, pissing off the real enthusiasts in front of the speculators). An auction professional could have said that the market was sane again. In fact, the "big-pockets" guys won and the guys who have access to the "big-pockets" guys collections (but who don't want to spend any money) won too. And the guys who lost are the many researchers working on editorial projects, but without having access to these collections: they will be again limited to second or third class Ebay pics (by the way, how many of these first-class Ebay pics have you seen published or have you ever heard of any precise informations to access them?). To say the truth, what you can read here, Ed, is in no way representative, as most of the guys here either work for the "big-pockets" guys or can have access to these collections. So, these guys have no interest that other buyers can buy interesting pics at normal prices, as they will have no access to these pics. For instance, it's quite possible to make a book on a specific aircraft by paying about 20-40 euros pro picture, but it is impossible to do it by paying 250 euros pro picture. Yes, who could do a book about the 109 NOW, with those prices? It's also the case for many little aviation reviews, which run always on a very small budget. (1) For instance, I don't understand this comment.... "I got a great 110 photo recently at a ridiculously low price." ... from a guy who seems to regret to find great pics at good prices. Frankly, how can one regret to buy an interesting thing at a low price, unless by being somehow masochist!

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Nemo,

Do you honestly believe Ed has some type of SUPER POWERS when it comes to ebay?
You are fooling yourself if you think that when Ed doesn't post the links that no one else on planet earth will see these auctions and bid on them?

Maybe I'm the one with Super Powers? I'm able to find, bid on and win items on ebay without Ed's help. ( No disrespect Ed).

Great work Ed!

Thanks,
Mike

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

nemo7777777,

OK, let's stop pissing about and call you out: "...For instance, I don't understand this comment.... "I got a great 110 photo recently at a ridiculously low price." ... from a guy who seems to regret to find great pics at good prices. Frankly, how can one regret to buy an interesting thing at a low price, unless by being somehow masochist!..." For your information, I paid 8,50 Euros for a photo of Bf 110s of 2./ZG 2 in 1940. I was delighted, but surprised that some other big bidders did not come in for it, for the simple reason that there are not too many photos of I./ZG 2 Bf 110s of the 1940 period out there. Maybe it looked too bland, but to me, it was worthwhile to go after it.

"...regret to find great pictures at good prices..." Whatever are you talking about??? I said nothing of the sort.

I get the impression that you want the big bidders to go away, and for prices to go down to where they were a couple of years ago. Well the simple fact of the matter is that new bidders have entered the arena, and you have to live with that. The e-bay auction world has changed. Tough shit! We all have to live with it. But they will not be bidding on every photo that is put up, for whatever reason. When that happens, the auction is at the mercy of an individual's value of what they see before them. And remember (and I've said this before), however high a particular bidder pays for an item, it means someone else has been prepared to pay 1 or 1/2 Euro less for that item. It's called an auction. It doesn't matter whether Ed posts auctions before they have finished or after they have finished, as people will look at what they want on e-bay. I'd set up my 'favourites' to see all the Bf 110 stuff, others will have set up more general searches. The bottom line with what Ed has posted in the past is that I can also see the other types, and see what they go for. Where's the harm in that?

You talk about 'normal' prices. The normal price is the price an individual is prepared to pay for an item, in competition with others. That's why van Gogh paintings go for millions of dollars/pounds - because more than one person wants it, and they and others are prepared to pay big money in an attempt to get it.

And this "...by the way, how many of these first-class Ebay pics have you seen published or have you ever heard of any precise informations to access them?" I'll tell you for starters. Go buy, or take a look into, my two books on the Bf 110 in the Classic series, and you will see them. If you want, I'll even go so far as to tell you which pages they are on. You want scans of some of them? Send me a private message.

Basically, I think you're full of shit, and simply a shit-stirrer on this board, making provocative statements without backing them up in any way. I call you out on that. And finally, let's see who you really are. Don't hide behind a nom-de-plume - I don't.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Very interesting, Ed is changing his mind continually.
Not very authentic in my opinion. He stayed the course 1 week, great!
Let's see how the auctions start to run now...

About the Ebay first-class pics: in the last years some hundreds of great
photos were sold at ebay - we only can see a few of them in actual
published books or magazines. I'm sorry John, that's sad but true.
I think that the plan is to monopolize most good photos which are sold in
the world. The only one man who can spend unbelievable cash for buying
such photos is trying to demoralise all other collectors. And some of these
guys are really frustrated as I can see. I can understand them because
they can't or won't place insane bids. So maybe there are two ways to
stop this changes: stop bidding against sudek so that he wins every photo
for only few Euros or Dollars. The sellers will become happy!
Or push every photo up to 500 Euros/Dollars or more, maybe the sudek
team will become frustrated too... ;)

With a little bid irony on sunday,
Günter.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

kormoran,

What you say is true, but unfortunately, that is life. Sometimes, it hurts, but we have to get on with life. Let me give you a personal example. You may know, from clicking on my link in my signature, that I have been playing guitar and gigging since 1969. I had a 1970 left-handed Gibson SG Standard guitar that I traded in the mid-1970s, and in later years regretted letting it go (I also let a 1968 Les Paul Custom go - what a dickhead I was!). About 12 months ago the exact same model became available in a shop in the UK, for £3,500. I was convinced that it was my old guitar, since left-handed guitars were a total scarcity back then. But I didn't have that kind of money to splash out on a guitar, and eventually it was sold. Gutted. The point I make, as others have made, is that market forces are always at work, and we may dislike them, but we just have to live with them.

I believe that if photos go to purely private 'collectors', then the likelihood of seeing them again is almost nil. If they go to researchers, there is more chance of seeing them in future publications. If they go to a certain archive, there is every chance that a lot of them will surface in publications in the future. Not necessarily in our lifetime, but new researchers will continue work away at our chosen subject long after we are gone. That's why all my research records will not be slung in a bin when I quit research, but will go somewhere safe for others to look into and use in the future.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Hi John Vasco

I hate the paintings van Gogh made. It was shit.
I also like Bf110 and other aircraft thats art.

and for the others members

Its not a Karl Marx world, but a Dollar world.
and If you want to spend your money this way so be it.
Or else join the communist party? (just joking)

Cheers
Peter van Gogh

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

And what kind of Englishman would rate a Plantagenet our last legitimate king? Harold was the last English king, since then they've been Welsh, Scots, Dutch, German - anything but English!

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Touche, Nick! And coming from Liverpool, I am a Lancastrian supporting a Yorkist as the last true king of England. I told you I was mad...

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Peter,

No harm in hating the paintings of van Gogh. I'm from Liverpool, but hate Liverpool Football Club, because I support the original football club in the city: Everton.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

John Vasco, you got this very interesting 110 picture at such a low price, simply because you did your homework in Ebay and because the big bidders, who have probably more money than time, haven't simply copy-pasted the auction numbers from Ed's listings in Esteal or Gixen, with an unbeatable bid. But obviously, if it's not a problem for you that good pictures cannot be bought anymore at a fair price with a little bit of research in Ebay, it's probably because you seem to have special access to these "first-class" pics. Why is it so hard to admit it? After all, everybody here is defending one's little piece of meat. The guys in the "system" have interest that the best pics fall into this big mysterious collection, because they can access it; the guys outside the "system" have interest to be still able to find from time to time interesting pics, that havent't been noticed and managed by this "system". And the difference is obvious: the past week, I bought at reasonable prices some very interesting pics, which would have been otherwise much too expansive to buy for the normal editorial project of a normal guy. By the way, I know that all this is perfectly legal, that in a liberal system the "big pockets" guys can buy what they want, but in the end you got a monopolistic system, what is not liberal in any way. Once again, I'm thinking to these aviation reviews, which can pay 30-50 euros for a pic, but in no way 300 for a good one. And the result of this "de facto" monopolistic system, is that all these great pics cannot be seen anywhere in print, except for a few exceptions. And I dont' even speak of scans of these pics on aviation forums. Finally, I ask myself too why the sellers continue to put their pics on Ebay, as it would be probably much more interesting to make direct deals with these "big pockets" guys. That's why auction professionals, in the domain of arts or collection cars, don't like that kind of system, because in the end it kills the market.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

nemo7777777,

"...it's probably because you seem to have special access to these "first-class" pics. Why is it so hard to admit it?..." There you go making incorrect assumptions again. For fuck's sake, don't presume anything about me that you do not know. If I work on a project, I may approach certain people to see if assistance is available. If it is, great. If it is not, then I move on. Let me spell it out for you. I DO NOT HAVE SPECIAL ACCESS TO ANY 'FIRST CLASS' PICS BELONGING TO ANY PERSON/INSTITUTION. I NEGOTIATE IF I WISH TO AVAIL MYSELF OF ANYTHING. I HAVE NOTHING TO ADMIT.

So get off my fuckin' back with your half-baked assumptions and allegations, which you make with no foundation in fact.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Cheers Ed!!

I have to say that I too have been looking at pics on eBay over the last week, probably using similar search criteria, and didn't really notice any difference at all in the average fetching prices - and no, I wasn't just looking at Heinkels!

John, nice web site!

Regards,

David