Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

But ... is there enough space for a "46"?

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hello Rasmussen,
Yes I believe there is enough room. I should have been precise when I mentioned the font and method of application.
Erla used a font that was compressed, meaning that it was tall and thin.
I have numerous photos of Erla-Leipzig-built Bf109s in which the first or last numerals of the Werknummern are spang up against the leading edge of their fins.
In some cases, this closeness manifests itself in the leading digit partially wrapping around the leading-edge of the fin.
This form of application seems to be the rule rather than the exception on the 46xxxx family of Bf 109 G-14’s.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

By courtesy of Mato Lion, over on Late war Bf 109's group, FB, two new photos of the often photographed Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 783 906 "Gelbe 8", 3./JG 4 have emerged:

https://archiwum.allegro.pl/oferta/s...O443i9GIbGEYL0

On the caption written on the back of this photo, location is said to be Eisfeld near Coburg, Germany. The other photos of W.Nr. 783 906 are said to be taken at Ennsfeld in Hideki Noro "LO+ST", p. 172. Actually this does not seem correct as there were no know Lw actitivites or landing fields there.

Finally, one US Signal Corps photo showing another Mtt built Bf 109 G-14/AS "Gelbe 6", also of 3./JG 4, was offered for sale in May 2014 with a caption saying it was taken at Eisenach-Kindel, near Gotha:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/280920...-cgZNxC-91EvHc

To my knowledge, I./JG 4 was last stationed at Berlin-Schönfeld until disbandment on 19 March 1945. What happened afterwards ? Were was actually photographed both W.Nr. 783 906 "Gelbe 8" and "Gelbe 6" which are seen in the same landscape ?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

.... :) And it's not a G-14/AS ?

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks to Spektor, over on modelforum.cz, this very interesting Russian photo found on this page:
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/t/tomarev.htm
https://www.flickr.com/photos/280920...in/dateposted/

This photo shows Maksim Nikolajevič Tomarev standing in front of what I believe to be a WNF built Bf 109 G-10 with a JG 4 emblem on the cowling. Thus, "Gelbe 11" sporting the vertical bar of III. Gruppe should be a 11./JG 4 machine. I miss though the Black-white-black colours RVB band.

Location for this photo could be Jüterbog-Damm where III./JG 4 was stationed until 2 April 1945, or nearby Mark Zwuschen (III./JG 4 was there until 12 April 1945). Both airfields were taken 20 April 1945 by Red Army units.

Any thoughts ?
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

some interesting picture in this russian review http://scalemodels.ru/articles/10880...9G-6-late.html

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

A photo of a plane without known record - at least to me:

Mtt built Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. probably 163 041, painted in tall numbers across the tail swastika, like W.Nr. 163 824 currently preserved at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra. Location is unknown location, Spring 1945. Any information would be highly appreciated.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Photo-...cAAOSwvFlfL-sV

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks to edwest2 on the german interest thread, those photos of a previously unknown Mtt built Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 785 772.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/280920...in/dateposted/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/280920...n/photostream/

Location remain an enigma. Among the planes found at this Fl.Pl. were also a Fw 190 F-8 STKz "BR+" which is from the W.Nr. batch 583 080 - 583 105 and a tantalising Fw 190 F-8 "Schwarze 4" with a checkered RVB band from a yet to identify III./KG(J).

Original source:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...2-ac1d010c2575

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hi Marc, this is a great find - Fw 190 BR+?? is BR+OY which was supposedly found at Cham-Michelsdorf. Perhaps the other planes were also photographed at this location?


Cheers,
Christian


EDIT: Okay, on closer inspection, these photos all seem to have been shot on the very same location indeed. There was an interesting collection of planes at Cham anyway, this KG(J) Fw 190 adds even more this. (Other photos show an older Fw 190 night fighter from JGr.10 (White or Yellow "2) and Fw 190 D-9 210034, still in its factory markings "TS+DH" (also visible in one of these new photos found by Ed))

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Christian,

So glad you nailed the location !!! This is a very interesting addition to the rather scarce portfolio we have from the machines left behind at Cham.

Thanks again !
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Most interesting is the combination of a 4-digit WNr painted stencil-like on the fuselage connected with the Mtt production line Bodenwöhr-Michelsdorf-Charlottenhof. In contrary to the well-known 3-digit WNr painted free-hand on the fuselage. I always presumed markings like that are connected with the Mtt production line Altenhammer-Flossenbürg-Heringnohe-Schafhof.
This new photograph is an additional proof. Unclear are the markings for the Mtt production line Hagelstadt-Obertraubling.

Regards
RolandF

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks for your insight RolandF !

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Quite an exceptional photo for tonight: an original color slide of Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 782 104 (?) "Crni 4", flown by deserting pilot Vladimir Sandtner, I.Zrakoplovna Skupina. 2. Lovačko Jato, who landed it at Falconara, Italy, 16 April 1945.

Source: 57thbombwing.com.

Original link, with my thanks to Tomislav Grzetic, The Messerschmitt Fighters of WWII Group, FB, 13 september 2020: http://57thbombwing.com/GalleryV/57t...E109_color.jpg

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Just out of interest, here it is with the standard Photoshop "auto colour" and "auto tone" filters applied — the results aren't always this good!

To me the checkerboard on the tail looks quite irregular, by the way.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks Nick,

This is really outstanding. Of interest is possibly the white MTO fuselage band painted out in RLM 75, as is what seems to be a III. Gruppe bar rear of the Croatian Balkenkreuz.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

There are also signs of an overpainted Balkenkreuz overlapped by the "4", see attached (approximate) illustration.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Nick, Marc,

I love this particular Bf 109 - on other shots, I _think_ you can see the remnants of an overpainted V under the port wing, which would mean a yellow band overpaint aft of the Balkenkreuz - it's difficult to spot on the underside, but I _think_ the overpaint on the leading edge can be seen on this shot (from your Flickr Marc):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/6262732731/

Anyone else see it, or is it just me?

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/pictur...&pictureid=709

Cheers,
Chris

[edited to add my photoshop interpretation]

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Gentlemen

I follow this thread with great interest and am delighted by this latest photo courtesy the 57th Bomb Wing. If it's not too much to ask, may I ask for your insights into the colours found on this aircraft?

I'm not expert in the way you are, so please forgive my possibly elementary questions.
1) Is it correct to assume this airframe started it's life in Luftwaffe service? Is the underlying camouflage one of the various manufacturer's normal schemes?
2) The blue/grey overpaint of the Balkenkreuz as Chris notes above - looks to my untrained eye bluer than 76? Or might that just be the resolution of the film or screens we view it through?
3) It looks to me (does it to you?) that the oil cooler, the vertical stabiliser, and the panels in front and behind the cockpit are possibly all from the same batch of 75 as the fuselage band?

Many thanks, regards Don

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Dan,

Some, short/sort of, answers to your questions:
1) Maybe - it certainly wore Luftwaffe markings before the Croatian ones - photos of the upper wings show overpainted Balkenkreuz and it's camouflage matches that of other MTT Regensberg Bf 109G-14/ASs in the 78X XXX wnr block - see Marc's excellent Flickr repo for more: https://www.flickr.com/photos/280920...57625414158747
2) It's not RLM76, it's darker - it could just have been any grey they had available. The previously yellow(?) band in front of the empennage looks a good match for RLM74 seen elsewhere on the airframe.
3) Not sure what you're saying/asking here, but (under all the overpainting and yellow theatre markings) the airframe is in a (consistent for this batch of 109s) scheme of RLM74/75/76 with RLM 75/83 fin, again see Marc's flickr for more examples.

Hope this helps,
Chris

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

83? Certainely not. RLM83 was a Dark Blue as demonstrated elsewhere.
Regards,
Franck.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Well I guess what I meant was whatever the dark green that used to be known as RLM83, and that was used in combination with RLM75, particularly on these prefabricated tail assemblies, is now called. :)
cheers,
Chris

edit - found it, Don, please substitute my (erroneous) RLM83 above with a ‘Dark Green RLM81 variation’

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks Chris & Franck

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

And for today's eye's pleasure,

this original scan from the negative made by Lt. C. J. Woods, 4 May 1945, at Bad Zwischenhahn from an Erla built Bf 109 G-10 in its typical late war low visibility two green splinter scheme.It is already published since 1989 by Carl Hildebrandt in his Broken Eagles, p. 4. Any ideas for its W.Nr. ?

Current archive: C. J. Woods. Army Numerical, Northwest Europe. Department of National Defence. Library and Archives Canada, e999917495-u /

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lac-ba...-oreTUf-obM8jT

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hi there Gang,

We know of "Schwarze 7", seen at Hildesheim thanks to this photo offered on eBay 11 June 2018:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/280920...7687193053794/

Two new photos of "Schwarze 7" are on offer currently. The skin damage pattern ascertains this is indeed the same machine, as found at Fl.Pl. Hildesheim:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-WW...2/274531706474
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-WW...9/274531704978

Though quite frustrating as no W.Nr. can be seen, we have IMHO an Erla built Bf 109 G-14 sporting a camouflage pattern seen on the W.Nr. 463xxx - 464xxx block.

The Technical intelligence Report no A-371 dated 7 May 1945 reports 48 airframes at Fl.Pl. Hildesheim, inspected 29 April 1945. Among them are five Erla built Bf 109 G-14's:
- W.Nr. 463178
- W.Nr. 464062
- W.Nr. 464248
- W.Nr. 464266
- W.Nr. 464337

As no tactical markings were recorded, there is no way knowing which machine is seen on those three photos, alas. As for the unit, 6./, 7./ and 8./JG 105 were all based at Hildesheim until disbanded 15 March 1945. There is thus a reasonable assumption "Schwarze 7" with its II Gruppe bar is a 6./JG 105 plane.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks to new evidences brought to my attention by Mato Lion,

We now know conclusively the above mentioned plane is actually Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 150853 "Schwarze 7".

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Report A-371 cited by Michael Balss says a G-10, WNr.150853 was found at Fl.Pl. Hildesheim. That's all.
All Gustav of JG105 accidented at this place belonged to 7. Staffel.
On 4/02/1945 II./JG105 was transfered to Stab JG103 and disbanded on 15/03/1945.
Last, I'm not convinced II./JG105 got Bf 109 G-10s ... But why not?
Regards,
Franck.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hi there Franck,

Indeed, the G-10 trail seems to be a cold one as revealed by another photo made by Charlie Lewett, RAF, in 1945. This other photo does reveal a left rear-engine curved panel... An Mtt built Bf 109 G-14/AS makes more sense from all those features - though we don't have any registered at Hildesheim.

As for the parent unit, I concur about 7./JG 105 losses, to which we can add also two 8./JG 105 losses whilst based at Hildesheim, W.Nr. 464264 on 16 Feb. 45 and W.Nr. 412667 on 19 Feb 45.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

What about 163642 :D ? A batch of Regensburg made with a lot of G-6/AS ...

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Good point, Franck; "Bodenberührung" is a fitting description for this airframe indeed.

Thanks !
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks to Spektor, over on modelforum.cz, today's mystery, at least for me: this photo of an utterly wrecked Bf 109 G or K is said to have been photographed 14 February 1945 at Holbaek, Denmark.
https://samlinger.natmus.dk/FHM/asset/199302
https://samlinger.natmus.dk/FHM/asset/199303

After having checked flensted.eu, there is no known loss that day. Any hint would be highly appreciated

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

It must be a G, not a K. The jacking hole is in the "usual" position, while the K version had it farther forward and a little bit higher.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

That G-6/R6, SJ+VT.
Look under fuselage. Not France and not JG3, as far I know. Most probably a Night Fighter ...
And check JG300 by JYL to get the equivalent ...


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-Ja...cAAOSwj0tfpY8v

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

This one too - which is not SJ+VT or "they" put a tank under belly ...
Anyway, it has a flamedamper over exhaust, obviously a night fighter. Same comment than above.


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-Ja...YAAOSwSpNfpX9s

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks for your lead, Franck. Yup, as for the location, we have one clue for Germany: Ju 88 W.Nr. 1530 V43 "RF+IQ" was one of the Ju 188 A testbeds at E-Stelle Rechlin in 1943. Some other photos were taken there, maybe also the 109's...

Am off for my JYL ;)

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

The Ju 188 V43 was used by Rechlin for endurance testing of the BMW 801 and served as a travel aircraft in Rechlin. This 188 flew on all fronts, so the photos could have been taken anywhere.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Again, note the whistle on first exhaust pipe !
BTW if you really need a night fighter unit in France, 1944, with such machines then I./JG301 was based at St. Dizier and Epinoy from 12/6/1944 to 26/8/1944.
...

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks Peter for this cautionary remark. Much appreciated.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Franck, thanks again. No need for me to have those photos in France.

As a possible further development, we have also a Bf 109 G-12 with partial STKz "SV+??" photographed with Uffz. Giese, 1./JG 107, based at Pau during Summer 1944 published in Prien and Rodeike 1995, p. 143.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hello,
The G-12 had the partial StKz "SJ+??" ...
Anyway when I wrote "You" I meant "You all" not only Marc. ;)
Next, amazingly Stab JG301 was based at .... Rechlin ! Funny isn't it ? Yet, we don't know when the said Wolfgang died.
Last - talking about further and/or possible development(s) - the picture published by JYL in Vol 1, page 171 show us a former JG54 machine, with the famous FuBi 2 under fuselage - and the whistle - taken at Jüterbog (Wadlager) in June 1944. The caption says III./JG54 did loan its machines to II./JG302 till early 1944.
II./JG302 didn't have it's own machine and shared those used by I./JG11 and III./JG54. Disbanded in June 1944, all crews being transfered to III./JG300 ...
Here we are. Since we don't know when the pic has been taken ...


Regards,
Franck.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hi there Gang,

Today's finds are a real Christmas gift: we have three more photos taken in late 1945 from the II./JG 52 and 101 Vadaszezred planes surrendered 8 May 1945 at Fl.Pl. Neubieberg, near Munich.

Two are particularly interesting.

The first does show Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 61. ... "Gelbe 11" "Gigi", 7./JG 52. This unique WNF built Bf 109 G-10 has an old metal tailplane fitted to its airframe, a makeshift repair to keep it flying. to my knowledge, this is the only right side photo known of this peculiar plane:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-photo-...YAAOSwRIJf2ugQ

The second photo is also the only known to me photo of the right side of WNF built Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 613 165 "Fekete 16", 101 Vadaszsezred:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-photo-...4AAOSwnGlf2uej

The third photo does show another Bf 109 G-10 taken at the same - frosty - time and location:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-photo-...YAAOSwpE5f2uZz

Cheers
Marc