Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
Page 3 of 3 < 12 3
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php)
-   Allied and Soviet Air Forces (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=7)
-   -   identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend! (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=64185)

Courtois Laurent 4th November 2023 21:17
Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik (Post 333653)
Laurent

As to your post above (No 19) I assume you mean claim no 31 (and not 30)

Also since my knowledge of the Eastern Front and Russian place names is lousy, was there also a Krasnikon?
Just curious since you elsewhere consistently seems to refer to a place called Krasnikovo.

Also in post 16 you have reversed two dates (as 07/17/1943 instead of 17/07/1943).
Claim 28) was that really made for a Bf-189, or is it a misprint by you?

Cheers
Stig
Thanks stig, to point my misprints. I corriged it.

Franek Grabowski 4th November 2023 23:59
Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 
Laurent
You would be surprised what mistakes do appear in combat reports. Hs 126 could perfectly have been He 177. :D
Aside, the damaged Ju 88, if possible to link to NN pilots, I would consider it a valid victory. Damaged aircraft is a victory, still.

Courtois Laurent 7th November 2023 16:03
Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 
32nd and 33rd Victory

32. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk- FW-190 - Lefèvre. NSIV.
The exact location of the fight is 3-4 km south of Pavlinovo. This day the Luftwaffe only lost in this sector the Fw 190A-5 n° 525 (100%) of 15(Span)/JG-51 in Pl.Qu.35488 or 35664 more probabily (3 km north or 14 SE of Pavlinovo) following a collision with a Soviet plane during combat. The time of the collision is 4:25 p.m. (3:25 p.m. German time), so it cannot be the one damaged by Lieutenant Lefèvre because the French landed at their airfield at 3:50 p.m.
33. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk - Ju-87- Largeau.NSIV.
The exact location is between Pavlinovo and Tserkovshchina. This day the 3./St.G.1 loses the Ju-87 D3, n°110037 (100%) south of Potchinok (there is a Potchinok in the sector of operation of the "Normandie", coordinates: 54.375 33.679). This Ju-87 made a forced landing following DCA fire, the crew unhurt (sources: R-2-III-1192, p.50, n°76). This Ju-87 is counted as damaged in the March Journal and does not appear in the list of damaged aircraft in the 1st VA report.

Courtois Laurent 18th November 2023 15:02
Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 
Victories will be classified into:
Scientifically Identified Victory. In this case the destruction of the downed enemy aircraft was found in the Bundesarchives: SIV.
Aircraft-Identified - Victory Not Scientifically Confirmed: AI-VNSC. The plane was identified, but only damaged.
Non-Scientifically Identified Victory: NSIV. In this case, the destruction of the downed enemy plane was not found in the Bundesarchives.
This can be linked either:
- loss of the report or incorrect classification in the archives.
- the fact that the damage to the aircraft did not lead to its unavailability for repair.

Let's start, Thanks forward for any help and corrections.


1) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Preziosi. NSIV.
2) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
No German losses reported today
3) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
4) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Mahé. NSIV.
5) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Derville/Poznanski/Bizien. NSIV
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one plane: the FW-190 A44 n° 1994 of 10./J.G.51 was 80% damaged following a forced landing following an engine failure 8 km to the N of Smolensk. (Pl. Qu. 25114), (source: BArch. RL 2-III/1188, p. 198, Lw. Kdo Ost n°143).
6) 02/05/1943: Sofonovo: HS-126 - Lefèvre.NSIV
7) 03/05/1943: Mouliatino: Bf-109 - Lefèvre NSIV
8) 03/05/1943: Spas-Demensk: Hs-126 -Littolff - Castelain - Durand. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one Bf-109: Bf109 G4 n° 5759 of Nahaufkl.Gr.4 was 80% destroyed following a rupture of the landing gear on the airfield from Pankowo (Orel). This damage may have been caused following an aerial combat, so there is a possibility that he was the victim of Marcel Lefèvre. (source BArch RL 2-III/1189, p. 344, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°140).
9) 15/05/1943: Mouliation: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
10. 15/06/1943: Mariuka: FW-189 - Littolff - Castelain. NSIV.
11. 15/06/1943: Brusna - Makovaya: FW-189 of the N.A.Gr. 15- Albert - Preziosi. AI-VNSC - Aircraft slightly damaged.
This day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6) has a damaged FW-189: FW-189 A1 n° 0047 of N.A.Gr.15 is 10% damaged following an aerial combat in the vicinity of Schisdra (Al: Schisdra - Ang : Zhisdra - Fr: Jizdra - Ru: Жиздра), the radio gunner, Uffz Matthias Müller is killed. (source: BArch RL 2-III/1180, p. 185, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°190).
12. 23/06/1943: Bouda: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV
13. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Littolff. NSIV
14. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Castelain.NSIV
15. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Durand. NSIV
That day; the Luftwaffe does not lose any BF-110 in the Resseta valley, which is in agreement with the fact that the French operated that day in the Vytebet's' valley. In the latter, only one Messerschmitt Bf-110 (Bf 110 G-2,(S9+BA), W.Nr. 6295) was shot down at Ulianovo, 18 km further south. (major Vyazovik 172nd IAP) and another (Bf 110 G2 - n°6252) was damaged in the same sectors (Lt. Efimov 198th ShAP).
16. 14/07/1943: Yagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Albert. SIV.
Not approved by the Soviets which awarded victory to an Il-2 from the 224th IAD. The exact location is Novoselki, 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina and 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports.
17. 14/07/1943: Iagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Pouyade - Béguin. SIV.
The exact location is Novoselki 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports. That day, the ZG1 anti-tank squadron lost 2 Me-110s at Koziul'kina (5km WNW of NOvoselki. 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Kosjulcina (10 km ONO Bolkhov) - fighter fire - Bf 110 F2 - n°5202 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p. 124, no. 120). 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Lumwko (Ljubowka,Leniwka,Lipowka?) - Energency Landing due to fighter fire - Bf 110 G2 - n°6297 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p.124, n°121).
18. 14/07/1943 : Kirekovo/Dolgaïa: FW-190 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the Yagodaïa sector despite 6 demands from the 1st Air Army
19. 15/07/1943 : Orel NE: Bbf-110 - Tulasne. NSIV.
20. 15/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - from Forges. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe did not lose any BF-110
21. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Littolff.NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
22. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
23. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
24. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Ju-87 - Pouyade. SIV.
That day, the Ju-87 D3 - n°538 - 10% of III./St.G.1 made a forced landing following on-board gunfire in Zlynij (Zlyn', 15 W Znamenskoe, 53.2776352, 35.8908419), (sources B.ARch. R-2-III-1191, p.43, n°49). Zkin' is located 19 km SE of Krasnikovo
25. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
26. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
27. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-109 - from Forges. NSIV.
No loss of Me-109 in the 1st Air Army sector.
28. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-189 - Pouyade / Préziosi/ Béguin / Durand / Risso / Vermeil. NSIV.
C.J. Ehrengard in H.S. No. 3 of Aèro-Journal, page 15. writes about this victory "A FW-189 A-2 (Wk. Nr. 183) of NAGr. 13 is heavily damaged in this sector". In reality this plane is only 20% damaged at Kuznetsy (52.83063, 35.9150651 / source: B.Arch. RL-2-III 1191, n°10, p.98) 17 km SW of Orel, i.e. 47 km more SSW of the French pilots' claim (7 km S of Znamenskoe).
29. 17/07/1943: Yagodnaya - Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Albert. NSIV.
30. 17/07/1943: Znamenskaïa: FW-190 - Albert - Préziosi. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6), lost 3 FW-190s in the Orel region, two in the 15th VA sector and 1 third from the I./Schl.G.1 in the 1st VA sector, but 45 km SSW of Znamenskpe and moreover the pair Albert-Preziosi engages two FW-190s from JG.51.
31. 19/07/ 1943 Znamenskaïa : Ju -88 – Léon / de Forges / Albert / Risso / Bon. NSIV.
The pilots considered it damaged, the ground troops confirmed the victory, confusing it with the Ju-88 of 7./K.G.51 which suffered damage and made an emergency landing in the vicinity of Krasnikovo (Stolbtchee).
32. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk- FW-190 - Lefèvre. NSIV.
The exact location of the fight is 3-4 km south of Pavlinovo. This day the Luftwaffe only lost in this sector the Fw 190A-5 n° 525 (100%) of 15(Span)/JG-51 in Pl.Qu.35488 (3 km north of Pavlinovo) following a collision with a Soviet plane during combat. The time of the collision is 4:25 p.m. (3:25 p.m. German time), so it cannot be the one damaged by Lieutenant Lefèvre because the French landed at their airfield at 3:50 p.m.
33. 21/08/1943 : Spas Demensk - Ju-87- Largeau. NSIV.
The exact location is between Pavlinovo and Tserkovshchina. This day the 3./St.G.1 loses the Ju-87 D3, n°110037 (100%) south of Potchinok (there is a Potchinok in the sector of operation of the "Normandie", coordinates: 54.375 33.679). This Ju-87 made a forced landing following DCA fire, the crew unhurt (sources: R-2-III-1192, p.50, n°76). This Ju-87 is counted as damaged in the March Journal and does not appear in the list of damaged aircraft in the 1st VA report.
34. 21/08/1943 : Demensk Spas - FW-190 -Foucaud. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 known to date in the Spas Demensk area.
35. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Mathis. NSIV.
36. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Béguin. NSIV.
37. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Good. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe only lost 2 Ju-87s in the sector, one from the 9./St.G.3 and another from the 10./St.G.3, as C.J Ehrengard had already indicated. (ECJ, 1989). The latter therefore seems to validate two victories for the "Normandy", but the study of the Soviet archives shows that on this day the different units of the 1st VA claim 18 Ju-87s in the Ielnia sector (13 for the 8th IAK, 3 for "Normandy", 2 for the 303rd IAD). We have 18 claims for 2 planes shot down. To these figures we must add the planes claimed by the DCA, which represents 5.5% of the planes observed7. The study of ground troop reports does not indicate any peak in Ju-87 activity during this period, only the intervention of 25 He-111s in Korobets at 6:40 p.m. It is therefore currently impossible to locate more precisely the place of combat which must be located to the south-east of Iel'nia. There being no conclusive evidence to link the loss of the 2 Ju-87s to the pilots of the Normandie, the three victories of the day will therefore be classified as VNSI.
38. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Lefèvre - Risso. NSIV.
39. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Lefèvre.NSIV.
40. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - de la Poype. NSIV.
41. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Albert. NSIV.
42. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Barber. NSIV.
43. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Béguin/mathis. NSIV.
No loss of Ju-87 found in the German archives, nor any other FW-190 apart from that of Captain Borras, all his victories are therefore classified as VNSI.
44. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - He-111 - Durand. SIV.
Today the different units of the 1st VA claim only one He-111, for its part the II.K./G.53 loses the He-111 H16 n°150594 8 km NW of Ielnia (Pl . Qu. 3534). The pilot and navigator were killed, the rest of the team was able to parachute. (sources: R-2-III-1193, p.162, n°73). The location and scenario match, the downed plane is therefore identified.
45. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Foucaud. NSIV.
46. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Léon. NSIV.
This first phase of combat must correspond to the attack of the Schwarm "Cuadra", it is possible that the French pilots interpreted Commander Cuadra's plane damaged by the explosion of the Yak-9 from Normandy as having been hit by their shots . On those days, the Luftwaffe only lost one FW-190, these victories will be classified VNSI.
47. 31/08/1943 :Ielnia - FW-190 - Risso - Mathis. SIV.
In a second phase of combat 5 minutes after the second, the 15.(Span.)/J.G.51 lost the FW-190 A2 – n° 500 of Hptm Borras to the West Ieln'ia during an aerial combat, the German troops on the ground indicate that FW6190 crashed at 1:09 p.m. (R-2-III-1195, p.102, n°44). No other Soviet plane was in the area at that time, so Captain Borras was a victim of the French pilots. This victory is therefore classified as SIV.
48. 01/09/1943: Ielnia - FW-190 - Albert - de la Poype. NSIV.
During this fight near Ielnia, the French pilots were opposed to elements of the 1./J.G.54, including Walter Nowotny. This day the J.G..54 does not lose any aircraft, and the Luftwaffe no FW-190 in the 1st VA sector.

Results: as of August 31, 1943, out of 48 official victories, 5 downed planes could be identified and 1 others identified as damaged. If we apply the ratio of 1/10 to the 273 victories of Normandie-Niemen we arrive at 27 victories, which is close to the 33 victories of the Ile de France Group.
At first glance for the year 1943, under the leadership of Pierre Pouyade, the number of victories identified will be higher.

Ranking of drivers by identified victories:

1°) Pierre Pouyade: 1.5 victories.
2°) Marcel Albert: 1 victory, 1 plane damaged.
 3°) Albert Durand : 1 victory.
4°) Didier Béguin : 0,5 victoiry.
4°) Joseph Risso : 0,5 victoiry.
4°) Jacque Mathis : 0,5 victoirY.

Courtois Laurent 18th November 2023 15:06
Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 
Above you will find the latest update somewhat delayed by a code 451!
"451 content not available for legal reasons".

Some people do not seem to be satisfied with this identification work, and we have already made reports to WordPress and Google....

Franek Grabowski 20th November 2023 00:58
Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 
To be fair, you would need to make a similar scrutiny for Ile de France Squadron.

Courtois Laurent 20th November 2023 08:57
Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 334037)
To be fair, you would need to make a similar scrutiny for Ile de France Squadron.
To be fair, I think I'll start by doing it with the JG-51 and JG-54 others, which were opposed to the 1st Soviet VA.

And also look at the other Soviet units, because the overclaiming is not systematic there, it is mainly concentrated in certain units for example like the "Normandy" or the 8th IAK (air force composed of 2 divisions = 6 regiments ).

What seems to emerge is that the Luftwaffe, which no longer had control of the skies in 1943, was already leading an aerial guerrilla war harassing the already vastly superior Russian air force. By “air guerilla” I mean the tactics of René Fonck, surprise attack, not extended in case of failure. Scout, hit and run!
It is certainly this escape which led the Soviet pilots (who applied the Guyenemer tactic, that is to say not being afraid of taking bullets into the plane) to consider that the planes were only hit, as shot down.

Franek Grabowski 21st November 2023 17:30
Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 
I think comparing to the Soviet units could be interesting, as they were operating within the same system, though the one should put into account the number of missions and engagements.
Concerning the Lutwaffe, in 1943 it was forced to withdraw as many as possible units to Reich defence. Still the technical superiority allowed them hit and run tactics used to minimise losses. Soviets had no choice, being on receiving end, usually, and only sometimes able to strike back. Add to this Soviet doctrine, and it explains the results.

Courtois Laurent 23rd November 2023 09:38
Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 
New income :

48. 01/09/1943: Ielnia - FW-190 - Albert - de la Poype. NSIV.
During this fight near Ielnia, the French pilots were opposed to elements of the 1./J.G.54, including Walter Nowotn. This day the J.G..54 does not lose any aircraft, and the Luftwaffe no FW-190 in the 1st VA sector.

This days the "Normandie" Loose one plane (Durand) and a seconde (Léon), Nowotny or Döbele ?

Courtois Laurent 5th December 2023 14:11
Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!
 
Victories will be classified into:
Scientifically Identified Victory. In this case the destruction of the downed enemy aircraft was found in the Bundesarchives: SIV.
Aircraft-Identified - Victory Not Scientifically Confirmed: AI-VNSC. The plane was identified, but only damaged.
Non-Scientifically Identified Victory: NSIV. In this case, the destruction of the downed enemy plane was not found in the Bundesarchives.
This can be linked either:
- loss of the report or incorrect classification in the archives.
- the fact that the damage to the aircraft did not lead to its unavailability for repair.

Let's start, Thanks forward for any help and corrections.


1) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Preziosi. NSIV.
2) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
No German losses reported today
3) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
4) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Mahé. NSIV.
5) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Derville/Poznanski/Bizien. NSIV
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one plane: the FW-190 A44 n° 1994 of 10./J.G.51 was 80% damaged following a forced landing following an engine failure 8 km to the N of Smolensk. (Pl. Qu. 25114), (source: BArch. RL 2-III/1188, p. 198, Lw. Kdo Ost n°143).
6) 02/05/1943: Sofonovo: HS-126 - Lefèvre.NSIV
7) 03/05/1943: Mouliatino: Bf-109 - Lefèvre NSIV
8) 03/05/1943: Spas-Demensk: Hs-126 -Littolff - Castelain - Durand. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one Bf-109: Bf109 G4 n° 5759 of Nahaufkl.Gr.4 was 80% destroyed following a rupture of the landing gear on the airfield from Pankowo (Orel). This damage may have been caused following an aerial combat, so there is a possibility that he was the victim of Marcel Lefèvre. (source BArch RL 2-III/1189, p. 344, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°140).
9) 15/05/1943: Mouliation: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
10. 15/06/1943: Mariuka: FW-189 - Littolff - Castelain. NSIV.
11. 15/06/1943: Brusna - Makovaya: FW-189 of the N.A.Gr. 15- Albert - Preziosi. AI-VNSC - Aircraft slightly damaged.
This day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6) has a damaged FW-189: FW-189 A1 n° 0047 of N.A.Gr.15 is 10% damaged following an aerial combat in the vicinity of Schisdra (Al: Schisdra - Ang : Zhisdra - Fr: Jizdra - Ru: Жиздра), the radio gunner, Uffz Matthias Müller is killed. (source: BArch RL 2-III/1180, p. 185, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°190).
12. 23/06/1943: Bouda: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV
13. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Littolff. NSIV
14. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Castelain.NSIV
15. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Durand. NSIV
That day; the Luftwaffe does not lose any BF-110 in the Resseta valley, which is in agreement with the fact that the French operated that day in the Vytebet's' valley. In the latter, only one Messerschmitt Bf-110 (Bf 110 G-2,(S9+BA), W.Nr. 6295) was shot down at Ulianovo, 18 km further south. (major Vyazovik 172nd IAP) and another (Bf 110 G2 - n°6252) was damaged in the same sectors (Lt. Efimov 198th ShAP).
16. 14/07/1943: Yagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Albert. SIV.
Not approved by the Soviets which awarded victory to an Il-2 from the 224th IAD. The exact location is Novoselki, 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina and 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports.
17. 14/07/1943: Iagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Pouyade - Béguin. SIV.
The exact location is Novoselki 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports. That day, the ZG1 anti-tank squadron lost 2 Me-110s at Koziul'kina (5km WNW of NOvoselki. 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Kosjulcina (10 km ONO Bolkhov) - fighter fire - Bf 110 F2 - n°5202 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p. 124, no. 120). 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Lumwko (Ljubowka,Leniwka,Lipowka?) - Energency Landing due to fighter fire - Bf 110 G2 - n°6297 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p.124, n°121).
18. 14/07/1943 : Kirekovo/Dolgaïa: FW-190 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the Yagodaïa sector despite 6 demands from the 1st Air Army
19. 15/07/1943 : Orel NE: Bbf-110 - Tulasne. NSIV.
20. 15/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - from Forges. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe did not lose any BF-110
21. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Littolff.NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
22. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
23. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
24. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Ju-87 - Pouyade. SIV.
That day, the Ju-87 D3 - n°538 - 10% of III./St.G.1 made a forced landing following on-board gunfire in Zlynij (Zlyn', 15 W Znamenskoe, 53.2776352, 35.8908419), (sources B.ARch. R-2-III-1191, p.43, n°49). Zkin' is located 19 km SE of Krasnikovo
25. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
26. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
27. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-109 - from Forges. NSIV.
No loss of Me-109 in the 1st Air Army sector.
28. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-189 - Pouyade / Préziosi/ Béguin / Durand / Risso / Vermeil. NSIV.
C.J. Ehrengard in H.S. No. 3 of Aèro-Journal, page 15. writes about this victory "A FW-189 A-2 (Wk. Nr. 183) of NAGr. 13 is heavily damaged in this sector". In reality this plane is only 20% damaged at Kuznetsy (52.83063, 35.9150651 / source: B.Arch. RL-2-III 1191, n°10, p.98) 17 km SW of Orel, i.e. 47 km more SSW of the French pilots' claim (7 km S of Znamenskoe).
29. 17/07/1943: Yagodnaya - Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Albert. NSIV.
30. 17/07/1943: Znamenskaïa: FW-190 - Albert - Préziosi. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6), lost 3 FW-190s in the Orel region, two in the 15th VA sector and 1 third from the I./Schl.G.1 in the 1st VA sector, but 45 km SSW of Znamenskpe and moreover the pair Albert-Preziosi engages two FW-190s from JG.51.
31. 19/07/ 1943 Znamenskaïa : Ju -88 – Léon / de Forges / Albert / Risso / Bon. NSIV.
The pilots considered it damaged, the ground troops confirmed the victory, confusing it with the Ju-88 of 7./K.G.51 which suffered damage and made an emergency landing in the vicinity of Krasnikovo (Stolbtchee).
32. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk- FW-190 - Lefèvre. NSIV.
The exact location of the fight is 3-4 km south of Pavlinovo. This day the Luftwaffe only lost in this sector the Fw 190A-5 n° 525 (100%) of 15(Span)/JG-51 in Pl.Qu.35488 (3 km north of Pavlinovo) following a collision with a Soviet plane during combat. The time of the collision is 4:25 p.m. (3:25 p.m. German time), so it cannot be the one damaged by Lieutenant Lefèvre because the French landed at their airfield at 3:50 p.m.
33. 21/08/1943 : Spas Demensk - Ju-87- Largeau. NSIV.
The exact location is between Pavlinovo and Tserkovshchina. This day the 3./St.G.1 loses the Ju-87 D3, n°110037 (100%) south of Potchinok (there is a Potchinok in the sector of operation of the "Normandie", coordinates: 54.375 33.679). This Ju-87 made a forced landing following DCA fire, the crew unhurt (sources: R-2-III-1192, p.50, n°76). This Ju-87 is counted as damaged in the March Journal and does not appear in the list of damaged aircraft in the 1st VA report.
34. 21/08/1943 : Demensk Spas - FW-190 -Foucaud. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 known to date in the Spas Demensk area.
35. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Mathis. NSIV.
36. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Béguin. NSIV.
37. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Good. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe only lost 2 Ju-87s in the sector, one from the 9./St.G.3 and another from the 10./St.G.3, as C.J Ehrengard had already indicated. (ECJ, 1989). The latter therefore seems to validate two victories for the "Normandy", but the study of the Soviet archives shows that on this day the different units of the 1st VA claim 18 Ju-87s in the Ielnia sector (13 for the 8th IAK, 3 for "Normandy", 2 for the 303rd IAD). We have 18 claims for 2 planes shot down. To these figures we must add the planes claimed by the DCA, which represents 5.5% of the planes observed7. The study of ground troop reports does not indicate any peak in Ju-87 activity during this period, only the intervention of 25 He-111s in Korobets at 6:40 p.m. It is therefore currently impossible to locate more precisely the place of combat which must be located to the south-east of Iel'nia. There being no conclusive evidence to link the loss of the 2 Ju-87s to the pilots of the Normandie, the three victories of the day will therefore be classified as VNSI.
38. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Lefèvre - Risso. NSIV.
39. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Lefèvre.NSIV.
40. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - de la Poype. NSIV.
41. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Albert. NSIV.
42. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Barber. NSIV.
43. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Béguin/mathis. NSIV.
No loss of Ju-87 found in the German archives, nor any other FW-190 apart from that of Captain Borras, all his victories are therefore classified as VNSI.
44. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - He-111 - Durand. SIV.
Today the different units of the 1st VA claim only one He-111, for its part the II.K./G.53 loses the He-111 H16 n°150594 8 km NW of Ielnia (Pl . Qu. 3534). The pilot and navigator were killed, the rest of the team was able to parachute. (sources: R-2-III-1193, p.162, n°73). The location and scenario match, the downed plane is therefore identified.
45. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Foucaud. NSIV.
46. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Léon. NSIV.
This first phase of combat must correspond to the attack of the Schwarm "Cuadra", it is possible that the French pilots interpreted Commander Cuadra's plane damaged by the explosion of the Yak-9 from Normandy as having been hit by their shots . On those days, the Luftwaffe only lost one FW-190, these victories will be classified VNSI.
47. 31/08/1943 :Ielnia - FW-190 - Risso - Mathis. SIV.
In a second phase of combat 5 minutes after the second, the 15.(Span.)/J.G.51 lost the FW-190 A2 – n° 500 of Hptm Borras to the West Ieln'ia during an aerial combat, the German troops on the ground indicate that FW6190 crashed at 1:09 p.m. (R-2-III-1195, p.102, n°44). No other Soviet plane was in the area at that time, so Captain Borras was a victim of the French pilots. This victory is therefore classified as SIV.
48. 01/09/1943: Ielnia - FW-190 - Albert - de la Poype. NSIV.
During this fight near Ielnia, the French pilots were opposed to elements of the 1./J.G.54, including Walter Nowotny. This day the J.G..54 does not lose any aircraft, and the Luftwaffe no FW-190 in the 1st VA sector.
49. 04/09/1943: Ielnia - Ju-88 - Albert - Lefèvre. NSIV.
For the day of 04/09/43, no information concerning the loss of a twin-engine bomber was found in the available German archives,
50. 04/09/1943: Ielnia - Ju-88 - Albert - Mathis, Bon. NSIV.
For the day of 04/09/43, no information concerning the loss of a twin-engine bomber was found in the available German archives,
51. 04/09/1943: Ielnia - FW-190 - de la Poype. NSIV.
JC Ehrengardt (JCE, 1989) writes about this victory "probably the "white 8" of Lieutenant Kart Hardt of I./J.G.51, missing above Ielnia" (Fw 190 A6 - n°550487 - (R-2-III-1193, p.149, n°124)). However, today the various units of the 1st Soviet Air Army claim 24 FW-190s; including 13 by the 309th IAD, 5 by the 8th IAK, 5 by the 303rd IAD, 1 by the 1st Gv BAK; while the Luftwaffe only lost one. The number takes place at 5:30 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. Soviet or 4:30 p.m. and 5:00 p.m. German. With 1./J.G.51 operating around 5:15 p.m., there is therefore a very low probability that the pilots could have crossed paths with the pilots of 1./J.G.51.
52. 04/09/1943: Ielnia - Ju-88 - Largeau - NSIV.
For the day of 04/09/43, no information concerning the loss of a twin-engine bomber was found in the available German archives,
53. 09/14/1943: Borovskoe - FW-190 - Risso. SIV.
That day, the 12./J.G.54 lost to the south Schalatovo-Est a FW 190 A6 (n°550167) shot down during an aerial combat, set on fire - (R-2-III-1193, p.83, n °43).



Results: as of September 14, 1943, out of 53 official victories, 6 downed planes could be identified and 1 others identified as damaged. If we apply the ratio of 1/10 to the 273 victories of Normandie-Niemen we arrive at 27 victories, which is close to the 33 victories of the Ile de France Group.
At first glance for the year 1943, under the leadership of Pierre Pouyade, the number of victories identified will be higher.

Ranking of pilots by identified victories:
1°) Pierre Pouyade: 1.5 victories.
1°) Joseph Risso: 1.5 victories
3°) Marcel Albert: 1 victory, 1 plane damaged.
4°) Albert Durand: 1 victory
5°) Didier Béguin: 0.5 victory.
5°) Jacques Mathis: 0.5 victory


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:42.
Page 3 of 3 < 12 3
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net