Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Acc. to Priens book, the JG3-claims were at ca. 3:30 in the morning (Berlin time). Does this fit to the time of the attack?

Please, Evgeny, what is the source for your loss information?

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Berlin time = Moskow time + 2 hours.

3:30 (BT) = 5:30 (MT, as listed in all info I posted above).

Source of all lists: look 1st post.
"Расколотое небо. Май-июнь 1943", Олег Растренин.
("Broken sky. May-june 1943", by Oleg Rastrenin) ISBN: 9785699221783. 84x108/32, 320 pages. Releice date: 25.06.2007.

Oleg Rastrenin have great authority as specialist of assault aviation (Il-2 aircratft, units, pilots, organisation, operations during WW II). He has several books in russian, and 1 in english.
Il-2 Shturmovik Guards Units of World War 2 (Combat Aircraft) by Oleg Rastrenin
http://www.amazon.com/Shturmovik-Gua...1787481&sr=8-1

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

If the VVS was attacking the target at 04:15(Moscow) on the 10Jun43 and II/JG3 made their first claims against the Il-2's at 03:20 it would be Eastern Europe time. Other wise it would be nearly a hour to the target and attack before the first claim could be made at 05:20(Moscow). Certain Luftwaffe units seem to use Berlin and others Eastern Europe in their claims it seems.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

About times (to clear the situation):

Time, mentioned in reports (see above with each raid) is :

TIME OVER TARGET. That mean, if Il-2 need to fly to his target for 30 minutes, and tome over target is (for example) 5:00 (3:00 German time), he will take off in 4:30 (2:30) german time. Then it takes (usually) 5-10 minute over target, and he is landing at 5:40 (3:40 German time).
Then:
If group of Il-2's was intercepted BEFORE it reach the target, Luftwaffe may claim victoryes from 4:30 to 5:00 (in german claimlists it will be from 2:30 to 3:00).

Claims over target are around 3:00 (german time).

Claims, when group of Il-2 was going to base will be listed (for example in Tony Woods lists) as from 3:00 to 3:30.

It is just example.

Actually, german fighters could attack 30 minutes BEFORE Il-2 (or A-20, or Pe-2) will come to target, and continue ther attacks during 30-40 minutes (and even longer - even following to landing airfields of Il-2's).

JG 51 Pilot Losses
 

Hi guys

I glanced through my copy of the JG 51 book by Anders/Held and I did not see any pilot losses listed for JG 51 on either 8 June or 10 June 1943. From Evgeny's information, it would appear that the authors did not include the loss of Gonzales on 8 June so perhaps there were some pilot losses in fact.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Hello all,

This is a very interesting subject.

Have some data on 8 Jun 43 relating to II./JG 3:

Claims:
08.06.43Oblt. Joachim Kirschner5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 60 266: at 200 m.05.18FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45008.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 60 224: at 1.200 m.05.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45108.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 69 223: at 1.000 m.05.22FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45208.06.43Oblt. Werner Lucas4./JG 3LaGG-3£ 61 213: at 3.000 m.11.12FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 51308.06.43Ofw. Josef Schütte5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 218: at 3.500 m.11.14FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM08.06.43Ltn. Franz RuhlStab II./JG 3Yak-1£ 62 799: at 4.000 m.11.15FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 28408.06.43Ofw. Josef Schütte5./JG 3Yak-1£ 61 267: at 2.500 m.11.17FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45308.06.43Ltn. Franz RuhlStab II./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 217: at 4.000 m.11.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 28508.06.43Oblt. Werner Lucas4./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 243: at 2.800 m.11.22FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 51408.06.43Fw. Hans Grünberg5./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 316: at 3.800 m.18.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45408.06.43Ltn. Hermann Schuster4./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 315: at 300 m.18.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM


10 June 43:
10.06.43Ltn. Gerd Schaedle6./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 612: at 1.500 m.03.18FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Ltn. Hermann Schuster4./JG 3Il-2£ 61 657: at 200 m.03.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3Il-2£ 61 872: at 50 m.03.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45610.06.43Ltn. Ernst-Heinz Löhr6./JG 3Il-7£ 61 649: at 100 m.03.23FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 27510.06.43Uffz. Waldemar Eyrich6./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 622: at 200 m.03.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Fw. Hans Grünberg5./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 318: at 3.500 m.05.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 437

Best wishes,
Rob

Re: JG 51 Pilot Losses
 

Hello Leo,

at least in the Ader's book published in 1977 no Spain losses was included in the loss List of JG51.
What publish Year from your book ?

Best reards

JG 51 Pilot Losses
 

Hi Kalender

I looked and my copy dates from 1977 as well. Obviously this information was excluded from that version. I wonder if the later (1985) version includes Spanish losses?

Horrido!

Leo

Re: JG 51 Pilot Losses
 

Hi Leo,

I do not seen the 1985 version.

Best regards

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Thx for the time of the attack. I knew about the 2hours difference Moscow-berlin. So, it fits. Good!

I have the Adrs/Held book from 1985, it is a pure reprint afaik. No losses mentioned for that day.