Re: German bomber wreck in south tuscany (2)
 

No such database unfortunaely seems to exist and we should rely only on the BA-MA list of losses until end of 1943 only...

There is no chance that it is one of the few Regia Aeronautica ones (night-fighter version BTW), as they were based and operated on Northern Italy only and never so far South (apart from the fact that those lost are documented).

Sadly, I think too that this is one of those operating from Southern France in late January 1944 onwards against the bridgehead at Anzio, but as 1944 losses are missing, it is a very difficult task to find any supporting data...

Re: German bomber wreck in south tuscany (2)
 

This is one possibility:
1944-01-24, 6./KG 100, Do 217E-5, 5509, 6N+FP, Castiglione del Lago, Raum Perugia, Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
F Lt Koch, Hans-Werner, vermißt
B Ogfr Wagner, Heinrich, vermißt
Bf Ogfr Riedl, Ludwig, vermißt
Bs Fw Heyne, Fritz, vermißt

Matti

Re: German bomber wreck in south tuscany (2)
 

Nick/Matti

Not one of Ulf Balke's better passages in his KG 100 book...

First of all I find it, should we say, awkward to list losses in two different appendices. That is also the reason Herrn Balke makes such mistakes

Page 454: WNr 5509, Do 217E-5, 6N+FP, 6./100, (lost) 14.01.44, (reason) Fighters, 100%, (area) Anzio-Nettuno

Page 398: 24.01.44, 6/100, (area) Anzio-Nettuno, (reason) unknown, (crew) as per list made out by Matti

He also lists two further losses by 4. and 5./KG 100 in the same area on page 398 but since he has opted to write the Wnr in digit order, you have a hard time to locate who these other three are (One was pretty easy, 5./KG 100 WNr 5631 6N+HN)

Matti
I notice you give a totally different place for this loss than Balke. Can you elaborate a bit on why? Perhaps it is the same area but much more specific?

Cheers
Stig

Re: German bomber wreck in south tuscany (2)
 

My info is from NVMs. Also the following two were lost on that day:
1944-01-24, 4./KG 100, Do 217E-5, 5658, 6N+KP, Bei Piasa, Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
F Ofw Wollny, Herbert, tot
B Fw Hahn, Johann, tot
Bf Uffz Krämer, Walter, tot
Bs Uffz Siegmann, Gustav, tot
1944-01-24, 5./KG 100, Do 217E-5, 5631, 6N+HN, Anzio-Nettuno, Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
F Lt Grotzer, Helmut, vermißt
B Uffz Heuring, Albert, vermißt
Bf Uffz Schmidt, Herbert, vermißt
Bs Ogfr Meinzer, Hans, vermißt

Matti

Re: German bomber wreck in south tuscany (2)
 

I guess it was "bei Pisa"...

Re: German bomber wreck in south tuscany (2)
 

Thanks Matti

Located the third one alright in the book. By the way I notice there seems to be a difficulty in reading the records with regard to spelling of names, and particularly between the letters e and o.
Balke says Gretzer and you say Grotzer
Balke says Wellny and you say Wollny

Bad handwriting or a clerk using a hammer on his typewriter maybe? :)

Veltro
It is quite some distance between Pisa and the Anzio area. My first thought followed yours, but checking a map I was wondering if something else might fit the bill so to speak. Maybe not....

Cheers
Stig

Re: German bomber wreck in south tuscany (2)
 

Stig, you are right. It is sometimes very difficult to say, whether the letter is "e" or "o". Main reason, is quality of typed text. Sometimes the text just can be seen on the paper, sometimes the document is "n"th carbon copy with fussy letters, sometimes text is so dark, that the circle is totally black. I have tried to read the NVMs properly, but unfortunately I am far from perfect and make too many mistakes. However, in this case I am quite confident, that Grotzer and Wollny are correct (Grotzer can be found also in DRK Vermisstenbildliste and there are no Wellny in my database, but several Wollnys).

Regards,

Matti

Re: German bomber wreck in south tuscany (2)
 

Still looking for pieces that can help to find out thr flight and the wn... I'm trying to talk with witnesses, but anybody is sure about the date of the crash. No data in the city hall. Police has no report. People says that the crew, bailed before the crash, was killed by partisans...and this could explain the missing report about them. All witnesses say that no corpse was present in the crash site.
I'm close, but not so close....
More pieces...
Regards, and thank alot for the effort to give a name to this event!
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...2/DSCF2928.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...2/DSC_3376.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...2/DSC_3378.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...2/DSC_3377.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...e62/foto-6.jpg

Re: German bomber wreck in south tuscany (2)
 

New walk on crash site...now it take hours and hours to collect little pieces, I think we almost clean most of parts there. This time we founded just something that remind us that engines were BMW and little parts.
No news about the date of crash...I'm wondering if the fight that was reported over Cortona the 18th of jenuary 1944 could be the one that leads to our crash site...it is only few kilometers far from the aicombat area...
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...2/DSC_3573.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...2/DSC_3576.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...DSC_3581-1.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...2/DSC_3580.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...2/DSC_3578.jpg
This piece has another control mark
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...2/DSC_3575.jpg
Best regards
Andrea

Re: German bomber wreck in south tuscany (2)
 

No news about the wreck. Soon I will start to search on Church archieves, if priest of the area did report any event like a wreck. Two witness says that the Do crashed in march or april, so we should move our research in KG100 book later...in these two months. May someone please take a look on losses during that period?
Soon I'll show you more pieces...but one engine was melted in 90'...:-(!!!
Andrea