Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Gary - it certainly was for the 474Th..

I suspect they were caught on the deck like the 9 loss day for the 4th also, but at any rate if all those losses were air to air then they top the 4th for worst USAAF loss in the war in a single engagement.. but still not close to some of the 40-50 destroyed beatings the 357th and 56th applied to the Luftwaffe - which is what I'm trying to dig up.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

A similarly heavy loss of P.38s occurred also on June 10, 1944, when the 1st and 82nd F.G.'s targeted the Ploesti oilfields, in Rumania.
In an effort to inflict decisive damage to the oilfields, 46 bomb-carrying P-38Js of the 82nd FG, escorted by a similar number of long-range Lightning fighters of the 1stFG, took off from Foggia, in Italy. When everything was over, Rumanian and German fighters and flak claimed 51 victories, double the actual number of P-38s actually lost in this ill-fated mission. Nevertheless, the loss of two-dozen USAAF aircraft (one quarter of the attacking formation) represented a tremendous victory for the defenders (Germans and their Axis allies).

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Denes - I forgot that one despite the fact that a good friend of my Father, a Wayne Jorda, was flying the 'escort' portion of that mission. I would put it up on the wall, but loathe to rank it as fighter versus fighter when the P-38 Bombers were carrying 2-1000 lb bombs - that will definitely handicap one in a furball. Still it was a USAAF fighter. How many did the Luftwaffe lose on this mission?

Thanks,

Bill

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

The real Allied losses on that day were 3 P-40E of GC II/5
The Real Allied losses on that day were a single B-25 of 12th BG, and this bomber was more likely shot down by Stab JG 53

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

how could someone call the Sturmbock versions ?
also to have a handicap in dogfights ?
how many of the 340 airclaims (355th. ) were sturmbock´s ?
and further, were these 340 claims or kills ?

thank you

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

I have heard about this mission. I think there were ~30 claims by the p-38s. Does anyone know how many of these claims were confirmed? Did the attack cause any real damage to justify the losses?

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

The German fighter units in the area claimed a total of 21 kills over the P-38s for the the loss of one Bf 109G with one other being lightly damaged. The units involved were:
II./JG 51: 1 P-38
III./JG 77: 11
I./JG 53: 6
10./JG 301: 1
IV./NJG 2: 2

The Rumanians claimed an additional 24 kills. I don't know what their losses were. One P-38 pilot claimed five Fw 190s which were actually the radial engined Rumanian fighter IAR 80.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

I know there were, sometimes quite significant, overclaims but this is more than I thought, do you think the allied records are complete for these days, or could there be a few more losses ?

Honestly, I'm not too familiar to this period and theater of war, and I can't figure if this difference between records is usual or not...

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Boandlgramer - I am not familiar with the term Sturmbock but will for moment presume 'Fighter Bomber'. The P-38J of course was used in both escort and fighter bomber/jabo role. It was very rare for the P-38 to fly a high altitude level bombing mission but some were converted to have a clear nose and bombsight to guide the formation behind them.

When I alluded to the bomb carrying P-38s as being at a disadvantage because of the heavy bomb load, it really is irrelevant - just a note that the ability to aggresively turn into an attack would have been restricted by orders to perform the bombing mission - This mission certainly matches the question I posed.

As to the 355th FG. It had air claims of 365.5 Destroyed by 8th AF Victory Credit Board following WWWII.

That total was reduced to 352.5 Awards and reduced further to 340 (air to air) German aircraft destroyed in the air by USAF Credits for the Destruction or Enemy Aircraft - World War II - Study 85, released in 1978, when the USAF separated the 2SF totals from the 355thFG even though the 2SF was attached to 355FG.

The remainder were separated into Probable and Damaged to add to those totals prior to end of war. The final total was 340/23/124 for air and 502/0/321 for a/c destroyed or damaged on the ground. The 46 air losses include several from the 1SF (experimental) and the 2SF which were both stationed at Steeple Morden and maintained by 355th FG

The ground scores were awarded as destroyed only if visible evidence of a fire or explosion existed, all other hits were relegated to 'Damaged'..there wer no 'probable scores for ground destruction. A frequent tactic of 355th was for several fighters to orbit an airfield to record the fires in gun camera film for later review.

One last point. The 355thFG primary mission was escort 8AF B-17's and B-24's. Most of the ground scores were 'targets of opportunity' following escort duties when the Mustangs returned home on the deck.

The worst days for the 355th was when a flight of the 357FS was caught bombing and strafing by a force of me 109's and Fw 190's on June 7 and 3 of the four were shot down on the deck with no claims of e/a destroyed...

Several other '3 air to air loss' days occurred. 29 Jan 1944 - 3 losses for 2 destroyed, 24 April 1944 - 3 losses for 20 destroyed, 4 April 1945 - 3 losses for 7 Destroyed.

They of course had a couple of very bad days dueling with German flak - worst day 28 August 1944 losing 7 to flak while bombing/strafing marshalling yards near Metz... second worst losing 6 to flak while destroying 69 on the ground April 16, 1945 around Straubing area.

Does this help answer your questions?

Regards,

Bill Marshall

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Below is a list of MACR for 10 June 1944. All the losses for the Ploesti mission P-38's total 20. 82nd lost 7 and the 1st lost 13 that day for all causes, flak and fighters.. Still that makes the 1st a candidate for 'worst day/any group USAAF' against the Luftwaffe and maybe 20 total losses for the day the most for any USAAF Fighter Command (8th, 12th, 15th) against the Luftwaffe in air to air combat.

6/10/1944 P-47 42-8471 78 12421 6/10/1944 B-24 42-40831 868 12928 6/10/1944 A-36 42-84083 86 5550 6/10/1944 P-51 43-6776 352 486 5552 6/10/1944 P-51 43-7153 352 486 5560 6/10/1944 P-47 42-8630 353 352 5561 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25771 353 352 5563 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76501 353 352 5576 6/10/1944 P-47 43-25319 78 83 5577 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25981 78 84 5578 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26031 78 84 5579 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26149 78 84 5582 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76505 78 83 5583 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76506 78 HQ 5584 6/10/1944 P-51 42-106756 352 328 5585 6/10/1944 P-47 43-25581 353 350 5593 6/10/1944 P-51 43-24786 359 368 5594 6/10/1944 P-51 42-103329 359 368 5601 6/10/1944 P-51 43-24759 361 376 5615 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25736 78 84 5616 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26317 78 82 5617 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76547 78 82 5622 6/10/1944 P-51 43-6563 357 363 5630 6/10/1944 B-24 44-40107 448 714 5634 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28704 1 5637 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28812 1 5642 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104089 1 5665 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28536 1 5676 6/10/1944 P-47 42-75542 365 5679 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76441 366 5680 6/10/1944 P-47 42-75701 366 5681 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76201 366 5682 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76542 366 5686 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76365 371 5687 6/10/1944 A-20 43-9449 10 5688 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26037 368 5690 6/10/1944 P-38 42-67659 474 5696 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76297 365 5701 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26324 365 5702&6672 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25863 48 5708 6/10/1944 B-26 42-107574 344 5722 6/10/1944 P-51 43-6889 4 336 5725 6/10/1944 P-51 42-106669 4 336 5741 6/10/1944 P-47 43-25523 56 62 5743 6/10/1944 P-51 42-106700 339 504 5751 6/10/1944 P-47 42-7886 356 361 5757 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28821 82 5760 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28723 82 5761 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28818 82 5762 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28732 1 5763 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28806 82 5764 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28808 82 5765 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28789 82 5776 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28772 1 5778 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104072 1 5781 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104058 1 5828 6/10/1944 B-25 43-409? 310 5846 6/10/1944 B-17 42-37997 463 775 5855 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104330 1 5856 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104281 82 5857 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28741 1 5879 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26040 50 5880 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25903 50 6030 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104009 1 6036 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28549 1 6037 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28807 1 6069 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28688 95 6103 6/10/1944 A-20 43-9712 410 6169 6/10/1944 P-39 44-2454 350 6198 6/10/1944 P-47 42-27604 406 6217 6/10/1944 P-47 42-8409 406 6322 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104110 1 6345 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25895 373 9199 6/10/1944 B-24 42-78683 451