Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

It's definately possible that the a/c Blakeslee bounced were from a differnt unit altogather - I would again submit he had a few kills under him already and that if it was seen to crash into the sea - well not much more to discuss! I find it fascinating that there is more and more reseach being conducted by both professional researchers/historians, aas well as very keen amateurs on the air fighting of WWII!

Although it'd be nice to hear from Col. Blakeslee himself. I believe his he still with us (I saw him in a History Channel episode about the P-51). Man would he have a terific autobiography!

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Overclaim over sea was particularly high. Quite often airmen have been watching an aircraft going down in a hopeless situation and then just nothing - conclusion drawn is obvious - the aircraft went into the drink - but it is not necessarily true. This applies to all air forces.
All the answers should be in Blakeslee combat report - anybody checked it?

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Franek - your remark about claims over water is interesting. Please elaborate on this topic. I'm interested since most of the descriptions on this day's event claim the German a/c crashed into the water after a combat from 20,000 plus feet to about 500 feet.

In Jim Goodson's book, he describes the combat that dropped down to 500 feet. I'd like to read the combat report and maybe even research the gun came footage ... I'm close to the Natl Archives that house the WWII gun point info. Again I would side with the description of the pilot, especially a veteren with a few kills under his belt.

But the reason this is a on-going topic is that the German unit involved admitted to no losses that day.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Well, it is a general observation, not sure how can I elaborate. Of course errors in German documents cannot be excluded as well.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

I guess I'm just trying to establish a base line - if the pilot states he shot an enemy a/c down and it was seen to crash into the sea, but post war research states no a/c were shot down for the unit that most likely was in the area - what could we as avid WWII military aviation enthusists uncover and where do we start?

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Regarding Tumult in the Clouds, it is been a while since I read it, but it did not read like a very accurate piece of history, some of it actually feels more than iffy to me (but I'd need to read the whole thing again to be specific). Personally I would only consider it worth a purchase if you are either a real enthusiast, a real collector, find it in a bargain bin or finally when book space and cash aren't an issue.

I am not 100% sure on this one, but I also believe that Goodson writes about half of the Jagdwaffe as augering into the see...this may be an exaggeration, but some pilots seem to have a knack for seeing Messerschmitts in death dives.

;)

Please spare me the heavy high speeds controls debate!

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Currently I am looking for German pilots who baled out from Fw 190s in April 1942 in France, I understand your problem.
Well, your baseline is the claim. All you can do is to research Allied operations of the day in order to make a clear view of the mission as well as other missions of the day. Then you have to research Luftwaffe operations which is not that very easy but still you have plenty of sources both German and from Allied intelligence.
Have in mind that quite often German losses are inaccurate or misdated, I have found some combat losses that occured on the days no combats were reported by Allies. Of course no definite proof as they could have occured due to friendly fire or simply not claimed. I was talking to a pilot, who claimed he had separated from a formation for a free hunt. Together with a friend they bounced two Me 109s but never claimed them as this was a clear case of breaking the orders. I have found a confirmation from another source, I think independent enough to make the story credible.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

I forgot to include the most controversial case of inflated aerial victories at sea:

December 18th, 1939
After 22 RAF bombers crossed the North Sea and subsequently aborted their attack on German ships at Wilhelmshaven, the RAF admitted that twelve Wellingtons failed to return from the mission. Ten planes were shot down near the target and two ditched later. The remaining ten Wellingtons were all damaged to some extent and several were scrapped after landing in the UK. There is disagreement on the total kills awarded to German flyers. Several pilot reports were either rejected or not confirmed by higher authorities, but if I understood correctly, Tony Wood's Web site lists 40 Wellingtons claimed as shot down into the sea by JG 1, JG 26, JG 77, ZG 76 and JGr. 101.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

The Most Controversial Case of Inflated Victories at Sea

By who's authority, yours?

First you cannot bring up any hard numbers for German claims, second why bring this up in the first place? Isn't this about an early USAAF claim?

There wasn't a discussion about enthusiastic early (as in 1939) war claims.

Also it isn't about absolute numbers, but about relative ones. In your assumed case it is a 4:1 overclaim, are your sure this is really is The Most Controversial Case of Inflated Victories at Sea?

Please keep the discussion on topic, if you want to discuss this event, go to the Luftwaffe part of this site. See what figures come up.