Re: Hurricane captured at Derna 26.09.1941
 

Andrei

The 2 PRU ORB is pretty much contemporary as you can see from Gerry's attachment.

I don't know what the Italians and Germans saw on the 26.9.1941 landing at Derna, but it is remarkable the German Panzer forces identified the aircraft as a Hurricane, which was better than most Luftwaffe pilots managed in the air.

What bothers me, if an Allied aircraft really landed at the date stated, is that no one really bothered to take note of a pilot gone missing and not returned.
That aircraft details went missing is not strange, but to have a pilot (or crew for that matter) going missing is something totally different. So if we don't bother about the actual aircraft, who was the individual that became POW? Seems odd that nothing seems to be known about anyone at that date.

Interestingly the Hurricane W9116 is listed by Air Britain as lost on 3.10.1941, that is the date Shores et All wants it in the first place. In fact Shores backdates this loss to the 2nd simply to fit Italian records. So if a 2 PRU Hurricane is the only option we have, W9116 at least seems to be ruled out as lost on the 26th.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Hurricane captured at Derna 26.09.1941
 

Stig,

It is not only Pz Gruppe identified the aircraft as Hurricane, but Regia Aeronautica pilots of 153° Gruppo CT, who were themselves based at Derna (See post #10 by Ludovico Slongo)

The ORB was complied in wartime, of course, but it is not contemporary. The example kindly provided by Gerry illustrates this very well. Under the date of 1 June we could see a brief history of the unit and its origins up to that point. It is stated that the unit was actually formed with effect from 17 March 1941, two and a half month before the first dated entry in ORB.

It seems that the person who complied the document did not have all the documents concerning the early history of the unit on hand. So first months of its existance he recorded in outline and then attempted to reconstruct chronology day by day.

You are quite right that there is no information of a pilot, who became POW on 26 September, if we presume he was not F/Lt Brown.

So I'm still convinced that the aircraft, which made force-landing at Derna on 26 September was W9116 flown by F/Lt Brown

Re: Hurricane captured at Derna 26.09.1941
 

Andrei

This can be argued forever and of course you are entitled to your opinion.

With regard to the ORB, in my mind, of course it is contemporary. Even if it seems to start with a date 1.6.1941 and back track its formative period, that date and further on certainly must cover the dates we are interested in.

Gerry has already quoted that F/Lt Brown collected a Hurricane on 29 Sept which in my book excludes him from being a POW 26 Sept.
Depending on ORB the compilers/writers were 'often' a bit unreliable when quoting aircraft details, but I very much doubt they would be sloppy when it came to staff details. Spellings perhaps but not the individuals themselves.

Perhaps when I say 'often' above I am a bit careless since I have no personal checking of this. Maybe I am just 'notified' whenever there are problems so in fact the other 99% when everything is OK nobody bothers to take notes of it....

Reading MAW Vol 1 the Axis records obviously tell us about a force landing at El Hania on the 2nd. I don't know which records that are but what aircraft was that and perhaps more important who flew it? Because if that was NOT Brown we then have a problem identifying this pilot instead. We still have two losses according to Axis reports but only one known pilot made POW.

I don't know who Giovanni Massimello (Shores co-writer) is and what background (read research) he has got. Either he has missed or dismissed the Axis report regarding 26/9 but from a general point I think he has done a good job so far and he has managed to balance up the Italian AF in NA very well.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Hurricane captured at Derna 26.09.1941
 

The suggestion that only 2PRU could be the owner of the Hurricane doesn't seem watertight. I can think of two other possibilities, feel free to shoot them down. The first is a fighter pilot who had become disoriented and flew the wrong way, perhaps by making the classic mistake setting his compass. I understand that this was not common in the Western Desert because the position of the coast nearby was a bit of a strong hint, but this need not make it impossible. The second possibility is an intruder of 73 Sq, fitted with underwing tanks. Does the date of the event or the time of the landing rule this out?

Re: Hurricane captured at Derna 26.09.1941
 

Stig

That Axis record was almost certainly Italian War Bulletin for general public. It was already brought to our attention by udf_00. Not very reliable source comparing with operational documents of Wehrmacht and Regia Aeronautica.

In my opinion, there was no landing on Axis landing ground on 2 or 3 October. The only known to me loss that matches the dates 2-3 October could be Sgt Lowry of 33 Sqn, shot down on 3 October east of Buq Buq (behind British lines and therefore it was highly unlikely that he was captured)

Graham

There are no known RAF fighter losses on 2 October. For 3 October one pilot of 112 Sqn was killed and Sgt Lowry of 33 Sqn were the only operational losses. 73 Sqn was in the Delta area at this time.

Re: Hurricane captured at Derna 26.09.1941
 

Around this time No.33 Squadron was also flying with LR Hurricanes.

All the best

Andreas

Re: Hurricane captured at Derna 26.09.1941
 

Andreas

Judging by serials 33 Sqn flew standard MkI's at this time. All their operations were in the border area.

Graham

I forgot to mention there were no operational losses of RAF fighter squadrons on 26 September

Re: Hurricane captured at Derna 26.09.1941
 

Andrei

By mid-November they were flying LR Hurricane Mk. Is.

I haven't got he ORB for end September.

All the best

Andreas

Re: Hurricane captured at Derna 26.09.1941
 

Andreas

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 33 Sqn was issued with Hurricanes modified for LR operations prior deployment to Giarabub.

Re: Hurricane captured at Derna 26.09.1941
 

That's quite likely. As I said, I don't have the ORB for that period, and I don't know when the transfer took place.

All the best

Andreas