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Re: Ofw Friedrich-Josef Jost
Thanks to Johannes and Jim, I think I have sorted out the claims. 21 between 29 Jan 43 (this could be with Ar 196) and 6 Jan 44. Using the attachments has cleared up some of the names which means Wurm has 11, Jost 4 and Gryz and Haase two. Other two claimants were Sievert and Stain both of whom were killed in the same combat. All match with Allied losses apart from 17 May 43 when III./JG 2 claimed quite a number of B-17s attacking Lorient and Wurm one; only 4 B-17s were lost and 7 July 1943 when two Beauforts were claimed and 248 Sqn lost one Beaufighter. There was an indirect additional one on 7 Aug 43. Beaufighter JM343 suffered two hits but a third was not discovered until 16 Aug 43 when engine seized on a transfer flight due a cannon shell being lodged in the port engine reduction gear and following crash-landing at Carew Cheriton it caught fire!
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Re: Ofw Friedrich-Josef Jost
Quote:
The anerk numbers are per date the claims are awarded not date of being claimed. The only place I have found the actual date awarded is on the victory claim certificates (abschrift or Abschuίbescheinigung I hope I got it correct) which were sent to the pilot confirming the victory Ive not seen these dates anywhere in the archives. Anyway, below is a sample of anerks and award dates from the certificates for Oblt Knauth, Oblt v Fassong and Ofw Vechtel for several of their claims while members of 10/JG51 Listed by anerk, then award date and then claim date, etc. Anerk Award Claimed Time Claimant Type 5 25.11.41 22.06.41 07.06 Oblt Knauth I-153 15 07.01.42 29.06.41 17.46 Oblt Knauth SB-2 41 06.02.42 07.07.41 18.58 Oblt Knauth I-153 47 19.03.42 20.07.41 08.55 Oblt Knauth ZKB-19 48* 19.03.42 26.07.41** 08.53 Oblt Knauth DB-3a *incorrectly numbered as 46 in T Woods list ** telegram dated 31.05.42 correcting date from 26.07.41 to 21.07.41 49* 19.03.42 22.07.41 18.55 Oblt Knauth DB-3 *incorrectly numbered as 43 in T Woods list 51 02.04.42 08.08.41 15.20 Oblt Knauth DB-3 60* 16.05.42 29.08.41 08.40 Oblt Knauth I-15 Rata *incorrectly numbered as 66 in T Woods list 61 16.05.42 30.08.41 11.15 Oblt Knauth R-5 63 16.05.42 03.09.41 16.10 Oblt Knauth DB-3 75 03.08.42 13.10.41 10.30 Oblt Knauth DB-3 79 21.09.42 28.10.41 15.12 Oblt Knauth I-61 80 21.09.42 16.11.41 09.55 Oblt Knauth I-61 85 04.11.42 29.03.42 09.37 Oblt Knauth Pe-2 89 14.04.43 28.05.41 19.25 Oblt Knauth Spitfire 100 13.05.44 11.01.44 14.42 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 101 13.05.44 11.01.44 14.45 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 102 13.05.44 11.01.44 14.46 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 105 13.05.44 15.01.44 14.33 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 106 13.05.44 15.01.44 14.35 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 125 30.05.44 24.01.44 14.00 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 128 30.05.44 25.01.44 11.15 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 129 30.05.44 25.01.44 11.18 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 131 30.05.44 25.01.44 11.20 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 146* 07.07.44 18.04.44 11.55 Ofw Vechtel LaGG-5 *incorrectly numbered as 140 in T Woods list 253 25.10.44 07.05.43 04.29 Ofw Vechtel MiG-3 256 25.10.44 09.05.43 07.55 Oblt v Fassong Airacobra 259 25.10.44 02.06.43 03.56 Oblt v Fassong LaGG-5 261 25.10.44 02.06.43 10.30 Oblt v Fassong LaGG-3 264 25.10.44 08.06.43 19.16 Ofw Vechtel Il-2 265 25.10.44 08.06.43 19.19 Ofw Vechtel Il-2 269 25.10.44 10.06.43 19.11 Oblt v Fassong LaGG-5 271 25.10.44 10.06.43 19.16 Oblt v Fassong Pe-2 274 25.10.44 10.06.43 19.20 Oblt v Fassong Pe-2 280 07.11.44 05.07.43 10.06 Oblt v Fassong LaGG-5 281 07.11.44 05.07.43 10.22 Oblt v Fassong LaGG-5 283 07.11.44 05.07.43 12.35 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 284 07.11.44 05.07.43 13.24 Oblt v Fassong Boston 291 07.11.44 06.07.43 04.24 Oblt v Fassong R-4 294 07.11.44 06.07.43 04.28 Oblt v Fassong Il-4 296 07.11.44 06.07.43 04.32 Oblt v Fassong Il-4 305 07.11.44 06.07.43 10.55 Oblt v Fassong LaGG-3 306 07.11.44 06.07.43 11.09 Oblt v Fassong LaGG-5 317 07.11.44 09.07.43 08.31 Oblt v Fassong MiG-2 334 07.11.44 13.07.43 07.16 Oblt v Fassong Il-4 336 07.11.44 13.07.43 07.19 Oblt v Fassong Il-4 354 07.11.44 17.07.43 12.01 Oblt v Fassong LaGG-3 355 07.11.44 17.07.43 12.03 Oblt v Fassong LaGG-3 357 07.11.44 22.07.43 19.55 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 358 07.11.44 22.07.43 19.58 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 368 07.11.44 02.08.43 12.05 Oblt v Fassong LaGG-3 370 07.11.44 03.08.43 17.53 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 378 07.11.44 05.08.43 07.36 Oblt v Fassong Boston 380 07.11.44 05.08.43 07.39 Oblt v Fassong Boston 398 08.11.44 14.08.43 18.15 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 399 08.11.44 14.08.43 18.16 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 401 08.11.44 14.08.43 18.17 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 407 08.11.44 14.08.43 18.21 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 410 08.11.44 14.08.43 18.24 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 422 08.11.44 18.08.43 06.14 Oblt v Fassong Yak-1 427 08.11.44 18.08.43 17.42 Oblt v Fassong Il-2 m.H. 430 08.11.44 18.08.43 17.54 Oblt v Fassong Boston III 433 08.11.44 19.08.43 15.05 Ofw Vechtel LaGG-5 437 08.11.44 22.08.43 17.38 Oblt v Fassong Pe-2 Note the award dates are in order with the anerk dates not the claim dates as stated previously. As to claim dates being processed in groups (101,102,103,104, 77,78,79, 105,106,107) - I believe the was a change in the award process around October/November 1943. From the award dates on the certificates Ive seen copies of, in general by late 1943 they were only up to awarding claims around June/July 1942 - nearly 18 months behind in processing the claims. I believe this was due to the rigorous criteria that was imposed on confirming claims in the early part of the war (i.e. wrecks / ground witnesses etc) they relaxed the requirements to increase processing of the award process (also helped in propaganda). Thus, started awarding claims from late 1943 onwards to new requirements while still catching up on the gap (Jul 42 to Oct/Nov 43 to lesser stringent requirements) as well as reviewing older claims (pre Jul 1942) that did not meet the initial requirements and were being held for further evidence. Using the same 10/JG51 as an example we have the following groups (this is typical of most staffeln): Anerk up to 99 claimed up to 11.07.42 and processed prior to Oct 43 (Knauth claims dates) though generally in order by claim date can vary with delayed awards 100 - 110 claimed Jan 44 (Fassong confirmed 13.05.44) live processing after November 1943 111 118 claimed Apr 44 a bit of an anomaly live processing 119 - 139 claimed 16.01.44 27.03.44 (Fassong conf 30.05.44) live processing 140 - 142 missing (likely 1941-42 claims reviewed) 143 31.07.42 claim (likely reviewed) results of review of older claims 144 159 Apr 44 (Vechtel conf 07.07.44) live processing 160 163 Aug 42 catch up on missing period 164 188 May 44 live processing 189 192 Aug 42 catch up on missing period 193 - 199 Jun 44 live processing 200 203 Sep 42 catch up on missing period 204 - 212 Aug 44 live processing 213 - 250 Nov 42 to Apr 43 catch up on missing period 251 + 05.07.43? anomaly maybe 07.05.43? 252 - 277 May/June 43 (Vechtel/Fassong awarded 25.10.44) catch up on missing period 278 - 442 Jul/Aug 43 (Fassong/Vechtel awarded 07&08.11.44) catch up on missing period 443 470 Aug/Sep 44 (as 13/JG 51 - renamed) live processing 471 584 Sep 43 to Nov 43 catch up on missing period 585 637 Oct 44 (as 13/JG 51 - renamed) live processing No anerks beyond Oct 44 I have fund that this scenario is typical for most of the staffeln (including the continuation of numbers with renaming of units). If anyone has copies of the award certificates that they can forward to me, Im confident that the award dates will fit in with the groupings above with the various staffeln anerk lists. Regards Craig |
Re: Ofw Friedrich-Josef Jost
Hi Craig,
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1699 This is the Abschuίόbersicht for 10./JG 51 from RL 5/1461 p. 0457. It is unusual in being typed and lacking the date of the award of the anerk. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1700 This is the more usual handwritten Abschuίόbersicht of 10./JG 300. Note that the dates of the awards are found under "Briefbuch Nr." after "vom or "v.. In this case anerk #3 of 2.9.44 (yes, it is a "2"!) is out of chronological sequence because it was awarded on 25.10.44 and #4,5 and 6 were awarded on 4.11.44. Curiously, all of the anerk's of 10./ZG 1 were awarded on 27.6.44. best regards, Jim |
Re: Ofw Friedrich-Josef Jost
Thanks Jim
I didnt realise the award dates were on the documents you pointed out (sample on the second link you provided). They match up nicely with what I have of award dates on award certificates, thus confirming what Ive been stating for some time the anerk numbers are in order by award date not date of claim. In revisiting 10./JG 51 I now have the following: Anerk up to 99 claimed up to 11.07.42 and processed prior to Oct 43 though generally in order by claim date, this can vary at times with delayed awards 100 - 110 Jan 44 awarded 13.05.44 start of live processing after change 111 118 Apr 44 awarded 25.05.44 a bit of an anomaly being processed before Jan-Mar claims live processing 119 133 Jan 44 awarded 30.05.44 live processing 134 - 137 Feb 44 awarded 12.06.44 live processing 138 139 Mar 44 awarded 21.06.44 - live processing 140 + 12.10.41 old claim awarded 26.06.44 result of review of older claims 141- 143 1941/42 claims awarded 04.07.44 - results of review of older claims 144 159 Apr 44 - awarded 07.07.44 live processing 160 163 Aug 42 awarded 11.07.44 - catch up on missing period 164 188 May 44 awarded 15.08.44 - live processing 189 192 Aug 42 awarded 18.09.44 overwritten believe should be 18.08.44 - catch up on missing period 193 - 198 Jun 44 awarded 01.09.44 - live processing 199 + 07.07.44 awarded 12.09.44 - live processing 200 203 Sep 42 awarded 24.09.44 - catch up on missing period 204 - 212 Aug 44 awarded 03.10.44 - live processing 213 229 Nov/Dec 42 awarded 08.10.44 catch up on missing period 230 235 Jan 43 awarded 11.10.44 catch up on missing period 236 242 Feb/Mar 43 awarded 15.10.44 catch up on missing period 243 - 250 Apr 43 - awarded 25.10.44 catch up on missing period 251 + 05.07.43 reissued - original claim 24.04.43 (awarded 25.10.44 cancelled) reissued 7.11.43 to claim of 05.07.43 252 - 277 May/June 43 - awarded 25.10.44 catch up on missing period 278 - 385 Jul/Aug 43 awarded 07.11.44 catch up on missing period 386 442 Aug 43 awarded 08.11.44 catch up on missing period 443 470 Aug/Sep 44 all awarded 29.11.44 (as 13/JG 51 - renamed) live processing 471 584 Sep/Nov 43 all awarded 10.12.44 catch up on missing period 585 637 Oct 44 awarded 12.01.45 (as 13/JG 51 - renamed) live processing 638 665 Oct 44 awarded 21.01.45 (as 13/JG 51 -renamed) live processing No anerks for claims beyond Oct 44 However, there are 3 anomalies in the list above. First Anerk 111-118 for claims in April 1944 were awarded on 13.05.44 while Jan/Mar 44 were after this neing awarded on 30.05.44. a bit out of order but the anerks still align with award date. Second Anerk 200 203 are listed as being awarded on 18.09.44 which is after the award of the next block which was awarded on 01.09.44 The date is clearly overwritten and I believe the original date was 18.08.44 which would fit with the anerk numbers aligning with the award dates Third Anerk 251 was originally awarded on 25.10.44 but was crossed out (cancelled) and re-awarded to a claim made later on 05.07.43 that was awarded on 07.11.43. thus out of sequence. As can be seen the claims were awarded in blocks of claims and it must be noted that each block the awarded claims are listed in chronological order of date/time of the claims awarded on that date. The first document supplied is a list of the early war claims prior to the change that I believe happened it would be interesting to see the accuracy of these claims against known losses I believe these would be a lot more accurate (reliable) than the claims made in the latter years of the war. As they were more thoroughly investigated. Regards Craig |
Re: Ofw Friedrich-Josef Jost
Hi Guys
Don't know why, but I have Heinz Wilhelm Staffelkapitδn of 8./ZG 1(Sag128 from 1st March 1943 until his death in a Me410 on 14th October 1943. Regards Johannes |
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