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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Great stuff Gabor, let me look into it....I will revert to you with some details ....as into into the rest take your time no real rush at my end
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
thank you for this great info Gabor, i search these days about German and Hungarian pilots also in other claim of Pottyondy i found only few data: 14.01.45 Cpt Boston Me 109G 102/2 FS CO Pilisvorosvar 10 seems that losses in January 45 were in all causes: January Boston losses: 5 VA 5 A-20G Bostons (Dogfight: 1, AAA: 2, Accident: 2), 17 VA 15 A-20 Bostons (Dogfight: 10, AAA: 2, Accident: 3) but your info is always the best... about colleague with Nokose, maybe in the future, but now i only ask questions that he always responds....thanks Nokose I am very grateful with all of you, regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Dear GMichalski,
Yes, you are correct. Pottyondy had a Boston shot down on January 14, 1945 over Pilisvörösvár, which crashed at Rákospalota, Budapest-NE. The target was the Royal Palace of Buda, - the German HQ. and stronghold. The soviet formation crossed the Danube just north of Budapest and at the Pilisvörösvár 'IP' Bf 109s of the Hungarian 101/8. squadron, including Capt. Pottyondy ambushed the bombers. The downed Boston was another 5 VA, 453 BAP A-20G, S/N: 42-54166, piloted by 1Lt. Grigory Rodionovich Voevodin. (They both were well trained and brave pilots with lots of combat experience. Voevodin's crew of 4 survived the crash-landing with 2 WIA onboard. The Boston was a total write-off from 5 VA service by the next day, on January 15, after being examined by soviet ground-crews. The plane received over 120 hits in the dogfight, lost hydraulics, an aileron, broken nose-wheel, deformed cockpits, etc. It is all in the loss report of А-20Ж Бостон №254166) Note: this particular Boston (42-54166) has a great and detailed tail photo at http://www.fold3.com/ while on the way to the USSR in 1943. It is still in Alaska, U.S.A. with other A-20 Bostons and P-39s. (Lend Lease transfer) But let me ask, if this Boston statistics is from my book, called: "Bostons in the Hungarian Sky and soil (1944-1945)" - just got published last summer? (original title: Bostonok a magyar égen és földben (1944-1945) These losses are in a chart on p.84 EXACTLY the same way! On p.90 there is the drawing of the formation and air-battle in which 42-54166 was shot out from the right-back 'Tail-End-Charlie' position by Capt. Pottyondy László. On p.92 you can see both Pottyondy's and his victim's photo (portrait) side-by-side... This book lists ALL 222 soviet A-20 Bostons fighting in the skies of Hungary (plus partially over Rumania, Austria, Yugoslavia and Slovakia). All Boston serial numbers are listed too in the quarterly 218th and 244th BAD mechanical aircraft inventory-reports to the VVS HQ by: October 1, 1944 January 1, 1945 April 1, 1945 July 1, 1945 Losses and battles are described in a very detailed way with the names of the crews. Color profiles show the color markings of 5 & 17 VA A-20 regiments and several pages of (first time published) photos show the planes of the stories. See here: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=35383 My book also gives lots of data on soviet B-25, IL-2, La-5, La-7, Yak-1, Yak-9 and Yak-3 losses of the 5, 17 and 18 VA in 1944-1945. Serial numbers, engines, crew names, claims, etc. Book is in Hungarian, but the charts, graphics and photos are easy to understand. It can be ordered (in English) from Magó Károly (Charles Mago) at: zuhanobombazo@gmail.com It is about 6000 HUF (about 20-25 EUROs) plus shipping. He will let you know the transfer details. Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
sorry but i don´t have your book, i take the info from: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=34056&page=3 but seems a interesting book, maybe my problem is the language I will point to the next to buy with some of Shores, Prien, Boiten, Foreman and Barbas i search my info almost all in webs... regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Oh, OK, now I remember. No problem, I was just curious. Cheers,
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi
With Lang I agree, he had his wingman Alfred Gross to work with in my opinion. Cannot find any such aid for Günther Rall, in fact I believe he was honest. Another tool you can use is the East is A.S.M, basically claim is somewhat disputed, but eventually confirmed. If you were making fraudulent claims with your wingman there should be no such claims for you, basically the two of you will claim nice clean "kills" and with Hartmann it's amazing that with over 300 claims documented on the micro films that he has no A.S.M's at all, in fact there were only ever two u/c claims for him, and these going by memory were because he was forced to belly-land shortly afterwards behind Russian lines. Basically in my opinion if a pilot has A.S.M in the East he is honest, obviously somebody with few claims may not have any, but with many they should have some. With Lang he got seventeen(not eighteen) in a single day, and sixty-eight in a calender month, and only one A.S.M on 28th July 1943, which was prior to his association with Gross......who himself had no A.S.M's in the East! With Rudorffer when he makes just one or two claims in a day Tangermann seems not to have been with him, so these are in my opinion probably legitimate, and Rall did have a few A.S.M's. With Hartmann I would think his first seventeen were legitimate as they were before his big claiming days, same could probably be said about Lang before he met Gross. Johannes Steinhoff has a few A.S.M's and no significant wingmen, so I suspect he was honest, and as he spent considerable time in the West it should be easy to prove so. Kind Regards Johannes P.S please be critical about what you think about the A.S.M idee.....it's just a thought! |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Folks,
I quickly looked into Hartmann's claims over Hungary and the result is less than poor...... There are only a few cases where I can say it was p-r-o-b-a-b-l-y Hartmann's victory. The majority was max.(!) damaged in combat. In many cases no (permanent) loss in soviet 5 & 17 VA reports of his reported AC type, or the verified losses match (by time and location) other pilots' claims, not Hartmann's. However, I found these few cases: 5 VA, 264 ShAD, 809 ShAP IL-2, S/N: 1878785 on November 22, 1944, Polunin-Kuptsov crew. Probably Hartmann's victory (only one, not three!), but after landing at Csány-NW, 7 km, the plane was repaired and returned into service. In report it says AAA, which -of course- could be a dogfight, an ambush from below. (Later this plane was re-assigned to the 451 ShAP, when 809 ShAP gave back their used IL-2s and was sent to IL-10 training for the new model. 1878785 was finally shot down and crash-landed on March 20, 1945 - with Volosyankin crew onboard near Kocs and Dad, Hu.) 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP La-5FN, S/N: 39211746, engine: 8212292, on November 22, 1944 in dogfight in the Hatvan area, - piloted by Kovrigin. November 23, 1944: 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP La-5, piloted by ml.lt Nikolai Semenovich Kuznetsov. (But: he returned from dogfight and crash-landed near his base, pilot returned OK. So no crash in the dogfight area!) Other option is 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP La-5, piloted by ml.lt Aleksandr Nikolaevich Trusov. After a dogfight at landing, the right wheel broke, turned to the side and ran into an IL-2, parking there. (Their La-5s: probably two of these planes, collectively cancelled from 295 IAD AC inventory on December 13, 1944 as previous days' losses: 39211303, 39211628, 39211933, 39212001, 39212007 and 39214944.) 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP Yak-9D, S/N: 2015315, engine 415-1333, piloted by Alexandr Stepanovich Shuvalov on November 16, 1944. 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP lost two Yak-9s on February 4, 1945 around 12:50 at Rákoscsaba and Budapest (S/N: 1515321 and 2015350). Maybe one of these????? So only a few cases can be mentioned here, compared to Hartmann's approx. 40 claims during his combat-history over Hungary. Not much. Overall I found Hptm. Helmut Lipfert's claims MUCH-MUCH more reliable than Hartmann's. Hartmann was a great fighter pilot indeed, - but his world record, I think, is only a nice legend... Gabor PS: Something to read: "Erich Hartmann JG 52 - 352 victories ..or 80 ? - Russian research Dimitri Khazanov" http://falkeeins.blogspot.ca/2010/03...ies-or-80.html |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Johannes has made an interesting point that I would like to build upon somewhat.
1) We all know that pilots of all airforces made victory claims that were submitted in paper form to unit intellingence officers and the like and it's fair to say that pilots did not award confirmation to their own victory claims. It was done for them. Conclusion: lots of pilots have been labelled "fraudulent" (...or whatever...) but nobody seems to have yet made mention of the fact that an intelligence officer had to grant confirmation. Should we now call them "gullible"....? 2) Nobody on this forum or anywhere else that I have seen has been inclined to brand a pilot who had many known unconfirmed claims as a "fraudster" or "liar" when so many such unconfirmed claims show that some pilots submitted paperwork that ultimately could not be substantiated to the point that the victory was granted 'confirmed' status. Conclusion: does having lots of unconfirmed claims therefore make a pilot a "fraudster" who was "caught out"...? ...Thanks for taking the time to read this post. I hope I have put a smile on your face... |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
Nick see this pilot: 4./JG 77 Ofw 28 7 41 I-16 Wintergerst Eugen Near Gerasovka 1643 _____ E N 1 ___ _____ 4./JG 77 Ofw 9 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen 1903 _____ E N 2 ___ _____ 4./JG 77 Ofw 9 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ 4./JG 77 Ofw 9 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ 4./JG 77 Ofw 9 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ 4./JG 77 Ofw 11 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ 5 SBAP? Can't find any losses so this may be overclaiming 4./JG 77 Ofw 11 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ 5 SBAP? Can't find any losses so this may be overclaiming 4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (deputy AE co.) Kapt Sergey Dmitrievich Pyaskovskiy (survived shoot down) 4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (3 AE) Lt Petr Tikhonovich Yanychev (MIA) 4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (3 AE; flight co.) Lt. Vasiliy Mikhayovich Beloborodov (MIA) 4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (1 AE) Lt. Moisey Abramovich Khvatan (MIA) 4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (1 AE) Lt. Petr Ivanovich Shuenkov (MIA) 4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (1 AE) Lt. Mikhail Ivanovich Yakunin (MIA) 4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ Also 3 SB damaged and made forced landings. 4./JG 77 Ofw 19 8 41 I-16 Wintergerst Eugen 1558 _____ E N 3 ___ _____ 9 IAP. Two losses: Mladshiy Leytenant Valentin Kalashnikov KIA and pilot Minkin WIA 4./JG 77 Ofw 27 8 41 SB-3 Wintergerst Eugen 710 _____ E N 4 ___ _____ VVS ChF. Two DB-3Fs down plus one SB forcelanded in friendly territory near Odessa after engagement with Bf109s. These losses are possibly also attributable to Romanian pilots 4./JG 77 Ofw 27 8 41 SB-3 Wintergerst Eugen 713 _____ E N 5 ___ _____ VVS ChF. Two DB-3Fs down plus one SB forcelanded in friendly territory near Odessa after engagement with Bf109s. These losses are possibly also attributable to Romanian pilots 4./JG 77 Ofw 22 9 41 MiG-3 Wintergerst Eugen 1540 _____ E N 6 ___ _____ 4./JG 77 Ofw 23 9 41 MiG-3 Wintergerst Eugen 1720 _____ E N 7 ___ _____ 9./JG 1 Lt 30 7 43 P-47 Wintergerst Eugen See into the sea 1042 5500 W J 8 ___ Was this 42-7935 of 84th FS, 78th FG? Lt. James F Byers KIA (shot down over the Zuider Zee, attributed to a collision). Six fighters lost this day many unconfirmed claims, Anton Mader didn´t belive these, but i see in a web that they found all wrecks in a row so.... if this info is true, why unconfirmed? or possibility that the wrecks of Hrdlicka's and Friedrich's victims were miscounted and included in Wintergerst's tally or my info is totally incorrect... the info of the losses is from Nick Hector, regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
GMichalski,
Noted. In a way, it proves what I was saying. Whereas I hold to the contention that the wrecks resulting from the other pilots' victories were counted in his tally on 12.8.41, it shows that he did not convince his chain of command that these were real victories (for right or for wrong). Result: unconfirmed. I guess some pilots were more convincing. Original source of some of the loss info is Nokose. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=33810 |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Regarding unconfirmed........Hannes Trautloft's wingman was Otto Kath, but Otto didn't like to fly into enemy territory, so whenever he could when he reached Russian lines he'd make-up some excuse to return to base, so it seems that he would invariably not get his claims confirmed because he had no witness. This should mean that Trautloft was alone when making his claims, in which case he had no witnesses, but by his authority of being Kommodore they were confirmed.
Now Trautloft was well respected, and probably honest. Rudorffer and Tangermann may well have flown alone as a pair then, and perhaps Rudorffer as Kommandeur of II./JG 54 was able to swing things, whereas the Stabst./JG 51 seemed to fly(oddly) as a much larger group, perhaps even full Staffel strength! I have calculated Hartmann's crash-sites from grid references if anybody is interested in pinning the guy down, these run until late 1944, I can't really see any point in researching 1945 as for one most of his claims are rather speculative datewise(logbook stolen by the Americans) and two even if the dates are correct the place and time will be unknown! Regards Johannes |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
I would like to report a different pair of overclaimers - Hptm. Joachim Kirschner and Fw. Heinrich Bartels of IV/JG 27.
I checked the results of a few battles over the Balkans in the autumn of 1943. 8 October Claims: 3 P-38 for Bartels. In this combat pilots of III/JG 27 claimed 4 P-38, 1 B-24, 1 B-25 and 1 “Manchester” and Maj, Gustav Rodel of Stab/JG 27 claimed P-38 and B-25. US losses: 2 P-38 of 82. FG and two B-25 of 321. BG 25 October 3 P-38 and “Whitley” (wrong identification for B-25) for Bartels, 1 P-38 for Kirschner, 2 P-38 for others. US losses: 1 P-38 of 82. FG. 31 October Claims: 2 P-38 for Bartels, 1 P-38 for other pilot. US Losses: no losses for 82. FG which claimed three kills (Oblt. Alfred Burk, an 28-kill ace, killed) 15 November Claims: 3 P-38and 1 B-25 for Kirschner, 4 P-38 for Bartels, 3 P-38 for Fw. Ernst Hackl and 3 P-38 for others. US Losses: one P-38 of 1.FG 17 November Claims: 1 P-38 and 1 B-25 for Kirschner, 2 B-25 and 1 P-38 for Bartels, 2 P-38 and 1 B-25 for others. US losses: one B-25 of 340. BG |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi Gizmo,
Firstly: title of the thread is German overclaims in the EAST. Hartmann and others. So we are technically drifting off topic... However, Secondly: 15.11.43, several sources say only 2 P-38s lost this day: P-38F-15-LO 43-2184 of 71st FS, 1st FG (definitely to IV/JG 27, James A McClure KIA) and P-38G-10-LO 42-13238 of 82nd FG, but have also found 42-13275 of 5 PRG (12th AAF) Nick |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi Nick,
I'm missed that it is an Eastern Front topic only, sorry. But if Kirschner and Bartels overclaimed (or simply claimed false reports) over MTO its worth to check their claims against VVS. Both Lightinigs of 82. FG and 5. PRG are listing as crashed in Yugoslavia (first of them on 14 november) while all IV./JG 27 victories were claimed over south Greece. |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Thanks for the correction Gizmo, especially the date of the 82nd FG P-38. I will correct my database accordingly.
Nick |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Perhaps Hartmann...
Folks, not much change 'Pro-Hartmann', but he claimed a Yak-9 on March 6, 1945 as his 341. victory. Yakovlev Yak-9M of 17 VA, 288 IAD, 897 IAP from Novosibirsk, Zavod 153., S/N: 3315398, (VK-105PF) engine: 425-1347 (or -1317), piloted by 1Lt. Nikolai Andreevich Posuiko belly landed at Gárdony-S, Pusztaszabolcs-NW, in Hungary at 17:30 local time. Target was nearby Börgönd, the plane was hit by small calibre weapons. Pilot injured, - burns on hands and legs, but returned. Plane was written-off. Since there are no details in Hartmann's claim, this COULD BE his victim, but again: there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE for that. (Could be ground fire too, as low-level missions were flown all day long on first day of last German Panzer offensive of WWII.: Frühlingserwachen - Spring Awakening). Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hello HGabor,
I believe leytenant Posuiko of 897 IAP couldn´t have been Erich Hartmann´s victim as he was already serving as Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 52 in Silesia in March 1945, far away from Hungary. And by the way, is there any reasonably credible source for Hartmann´s claims in 1945? His last claim documented in RLM microfilms seems to be from 9 December 1944.... Ota |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Good point, thanks Ota... I'll be focusing on the claims in 1944 til December 9. Thanks,
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
Gabor,i see your info very interesting.. anyone know who was the probable victor, Hungarian or German? i see in Osprey 50 aircraft of the aces series Hungarian aces book that: 17th Air Army made 358 sorties this day, 3rd Guards Close-support Wing and 3rd Guards Fighter Wing also 358 sorties, 227 against 635th Panzer Army regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
I have no idea. If it was not Hartmann, then probably ground fire. (At least I am not aware of any other Yak claims in the area by Axis fighters.) Small calibre fire during strafing usually meant flak (ground) claim. Ground victories (especially in the final months of the war when Axis Air Forces lost their power) were very common. In fact most of soviet planes were downed by flak, especially the ground attack planes operating in the favourite altitude of German flak batteries. But soviet AAA units were also very successful. Their gunners were famous for being very dangerous and accurate against low flying planes. An interesting story for those interested in Soviet AAA operations:
In the final moments of the battle for Budapest, on February 12, 1945 a Hungarian Bf 109G was downed by soviet flak near Tököl, Budapest-S. (Bf 109G, marking: W-1+61, engine: DB 605: 00707595, piloted by 20 yrs. old Corp. Tábori Sándor. (In soviet report: 18 yrs. old) Plane was downed by Soviet 1614 aer. polk PVO from the distance of 800 m, at the altitude of 300 m. For downing the plane, the four 37 mm AAA cannons fired 65 rounds, while the escorting 12,7 mm DSK-machine gun fired an addition of 12 rounds. The plane got hit and belly-landed on the shore of the Danube. The pilot was captured, beaten badly, his eye got injured, stripped off his clothes and right before being shot on the spot, a merciful Soviet officer arrived, who stopped them and saved his life. (Others were not so lucky...) He was handed over to the 4th Gv. Army. The case was confirmed by the HQ. of the 715 ShAP, stationing on nearby Tököl airfield. (ЦАМО, фонд 17 ВА, опись 6568, дело 57, л. 46) In captivity Tábori got lung-desease that followed him for the rest of his life. He survived the war and later joined the new Hungarian Air Force that he had to leave in the '50s, due to typical, false charges during Communism against the 'old-era officers'. He became a driver and a teacher-engineer. He passed away in 2001. See his pic. Gabor See also: http://www.roncskutatas.hu/node/10862 |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi Guys
Who know anything about Franz Eisenach? His claims really take-off when a certain Erich Hesse starts making claims every time Eisenach does in late 1944. Assume Hesse was his wingman?. could be just a good partnership, but there claims do stand out. Would be interested if anybody has information on Hesse. Regards Johannes |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
HGabor,
Anton Resch of Stab/JG 52 claimed two Yaks on March 6th, 1945. Is there a possibility that St.Lt. Posuiko was his victim? I have to own up to not knowing where Stab/JG 52 were based on that exact date... Nick |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Nick,
St.Ltn Posuiko's Yak-9M was lost most likely to small calibre ground fire. No more records of lost Yaks in the area. Cheers, Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
On October 27, 1944 at 13:42 six Yak-3s of 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, 2nd Sq., led by Gv.Lt.Col. Borovoy encountered 16 Fw 190s and 4 Bf 109s in the Nyíregyháza region at the altitude of 2000 m. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut was shot down in his Saratov, Factory No.292-built Yakovlev Yak-3 (S/N: 2912 ("29-292-12"), engine: 412-200, tactical No. '29') South of Nyíregyháza, Hungary and got injured. 5 VA, 207 OKRAP has also written off two Omsk, Factory No.166-built Yak-9Ds (S/N: 19166066 and 19166078, engines 415-1037 and 415-90) between November 1-15, 1944 as prev. days' losses. Could any of these be Hartmann's 305th???
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Seems a perfect match. By my own calculations from given grid reference Hartmann's 304th confirmation was on 27th October 1944 at 1016 hrs at an altitude of 2500 metres in the region of Nyregynaza a Jak-9.
This proves nothing of course, even if he was dis-honest he might have been flying with people he didn't know after his break i.e an opportunist! Regards Johannes |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Johannes, Do you have anything on the team of Fw. Gerhard Beutin and Obfw. Rudolf Rademacher of 3./JG 54. I found one incident in 1942 were their claims didn't match the Soviet dogfight with them at all.
The claims for Hannes Trauloft's have been showing up more as I run up on more information, at least for 1942 and 1943. |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi
With Rademacher.....he was associated with Walter Nowonty, so therefore would be a prime suspect for false claims with his time with Nowotny anyway. He may well have been more accurate in his claiming later, but I suspect 3./JG 54 if not the whole of I./JG 54 of being as a unit over claiming throughout there time in Russia, however please remember that there are always those who are honest when everybody else is not. Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi,
about Rademacher it seems the same case like Rudolf Pflanz who fly with Major Helmut Wick.... they fly with pilots who made overclaims and by association we also consider them exaggerated...but each pilot is different. G Thyben and Rademacher seems more reliable than others of JG54... regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Just checking Hartmann's claims on November 13, 1944... He claimed 4 Yak-9s this day SE of Budapest. From Soviet losses:
5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP Yak-9T, S/N: 0215354, piloted by ml.lt Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev was lost near Tápiószőlős at around 14:00, local time. This could be his 309th victory at Tápiógyörgye at around 14:15. (In battle 4 Yaks were covering 6 IL-2 Sturmoviks against 8 Bf 109s.) 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP Yak-1b, S/N: 11186, engine: 415-1670, piloted by gv.ml.lt Aleksandr Titovich Kotlyar was lost at Jászberény at around 3000 m between 13:55-14:50 local time. 8 (4 + 4) Yaks against 4 Fw 190s and 2 Bf 109s. This could be his 311th victory at Tápiógyörgye at around 14:30 PM, at the altitude of 4000 m. The other 4 soviet Yak losses this day (5 VA, 122. IAP: 1 Yak-9M, 150. GvIAP: 1 Yak-3 and 1 Yak-9D, 179. IAP: 1 Yak-9M) were far away both in time and space and/or matched other pilots' claims. Again: MAX 50% accuracy in Hartmann's claims! Gabor PS: 5 VA also lost a Po-2 (S/N: 640808), a La-5FN (S/N: 41210201) and 4 IL-2 Sturmoviks (S/N: 1872913, 1873177, 10454, 9947) on November 13, 1944. The La-5FN and an IL-2 (S/N: 10454) plus probably 1-2 Yaks were destroyed by Hungarian Bf 109G fighters. The engine of the 177. GvIAP Lavochkin La-5FN (S/N: 8212559, recovered in 2007 at Újszász) is now on display in the Szolnok Aircraft Museum. The rest fell to Flak and other German pilot(s), eg. Düttmann. |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Hi Gabor
50% max, but Lt Heinz Ewald of 7./JG 52 claims a Jak-9 at 1434, though at only 400 metres, and Gefr Heimo Welz of 6./JG 52 claims another Jak-9 at 1430 hrs.......both same general area. Regards Johannes |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
The other four Yaks:
5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP: Yak-9M, S/N: 2715382, engine: 415-2479, tactical No. white '100', piloted by ml.lt Grishaev, crashlanded and broke in the morning, during take-off on the airfield of Külső-Kiritó at 8:25, local time. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP: Yak-9M, S/N: 2715317, engine: 425-384 piloted by Svistkov crashlanded at Újszász-E, 5 km after being hit by flak (at least in report, but could be AC from below) at Jászberény. Pilot returned to his regiment on the next day, on the 14th. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP: Yak-3, S/N: 3518, engine: 422-174, tactical '35', piloted by Nikolaii Alekseevich Kireev was lost at Ócsa, Budapest-S, -SE. Six Yak-3s against 13 Bf 109Gs at 8:41, local, at 3500 m near Ócsa. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP: Yak-9D, S/N: 1815358, engine: 415-854, piloted by gv.st.lt Nikolaii Sergeevich Egorov lost near Nagykáta at 11:54 local. Six Yak-3s and 2 Yak-9Ds against 8 Ju 87s and 8 Fw 190Fs, covered by 15 Bf 109s. Egorov shot 1 Ju 87 and 1 Bf 109 before being shot down. Pilot landed on enemy side of the front and hid. 7 hrs later in the dark he got back to his troops who returned him to his regiment OK. No more 5 VA Yaks on November 13, 1944. Hungarian fighters (Szentgyörgyi Dezső zls. at Jászkisér-N at 14:48, Fábián István őrm., Krascsenics Lajos szkv. and Tóth Lajos hdgy. at Tápiószele-S at 14:47-48) also claimed a few Yaks, - probably with overclaim too. Chances are that smoking Yaks in the battles were attacked and shot by several pilots until their crash, or crash-landing and finally everybody got full credit for them. This resulted many more victories than the real Soviet losses. Not to mention only damaged planes which returned OK and got repaired soon. Gentlemen, pick your own! :-)))))))) Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
thanks for the info HGabor, You know something about this claim of Lipfert? 13,11.44 6./JG 52 Hptm Yak-3 9km südöstlich Jaszbereny 9km SE Jaszbereny 1245 4000 E J 150 best regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
I do not know. There is no such permanent loss. Probably damaged, but not lost. What I know is that on October 1, 1944 (in 1944/4. quarterly plane/mechanical report to VVS HQ.) the 5 VA had only 17 Yak-3s. (The rest was Yak-1B, Yak-9T, -9D, -9M)
All of them were assigned to the 13. GvIAD. (149, 150 and 151. GvIAP) Most of them -if not all- went to the 150. GvIAP. On October 27, 1944 they lost Knut in Yak-3, S/N: 3912 (3929212), on November 13, 1944 they lost Kireev in Yak-3, S/N: 3518 (3529218). By January 1, 1945 5 VA, 6. GvIAD Stab. received Yak-3, S/N: 1712 (1729212). At this point 5 VA had 16 Saratov-built Yak-3s in combat service. Later they started to receive Yak-3s from Tbilisi, factory No.31 (eg. 310197, 310306), and their number kept increasing in 1945. Gabor PS: 'official' Saratov (Factory No.292)-built Yak-3 serial numbers had four digits: xxyy where xx was plane ID, yy was batch number. For some reason 5 VA added in their papers factory number (292) in the centre of the plane serial, so eg. Yak-3 No.3518 was in 5 VA documents '3529218', etc. They added the factory number just like yy153xx for Novosibirsk, Factory No.153-built Yak-9s, eg: Yak-9M, S/N: 2715317 (From batch No.25 it was Yak-9M) Tbilisi, plant No.31-built Yak-3s had six digits in their serials: 31yyxx, like: 310306, etc. The plane ID number was painted on the Yak-3s still at (both) factories to make the job of the frontline ground-crews easier, so the Yak-3s arrived already with painted tactical numbers. On the airfields they just applied the regiment, squadron markings, colors. Yak-3 S/N: 310306 was therefore tactical No. white '06', etc. In rare cases when 2 planes had the same plane ID (from different batches) within a regiment, usually they quickly added a simple extra digit to one of the planes, eg. one was white '26' and the other one became white '126'. In non-stop combat operations planes came and got lost very quickly, so there was no reason to use a complicated method to mark them. Squadrons sometimes overpainted the existing tactical numbers in their own color, eg. yellow, or red. |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Gabor, et al,
You guys are doing a good job of staying on point of trying to solve claims versus real losses, instead of polemics about national overclaiming and political philosophy, etc. This is what this long thread should be about. Keep up the good work! |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Thanks Nikita, here I have Kotlyar (гв.мл.л-т Котляр Александр Титович), pilot of 149. GvIAP (also 97. GvNBAP navigator) in Yak-1 S/N: 11186 on mission between 15:55-16:50 Moscow time, 13:55-14:50 local. As far as I know Lipfert claimed a Yak-9 at Jászberény at 12:45. Are you aware of any other 149. GvIAP loss at Jászberény around 12:45 with pilot гв.мл.л-т Степанов? I thought 149. GvIAP lost only Yak-1B, No.11186 that day. Any other details? Thanks,
Gabor |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Thanks Nikita, this is great! Kotlyar was the only 149. GvIAP loss I got from TsAMO for November 13th. He was lost on the 15:55-16:50 (Moscow time) Jászberény-Pusztamonostor mission from the flight of 8 (4+4) Yaks at 3000 m. Flight leaders were gv.l-t Otar Demidovich Kadagidzhe and gv.st.l-t Vladimir Mihailovich Kalchenko. Kalchenko downed a Bf 109, Kadagidzhe a Fw 190. Kotlyar was missing in Yak-1 No.11186. (The 11th plane of batch No.186)
How many 149. GvIAP Yaks flew the 14.20-15.20 (12:20-13:20 local time) mission and who were the flight leaders? What opposition they fought? Any data on Stepanov's engine-serial? Thanks, Gabor Overall this just confirms that Lipfert's claims were very accurate. I start to believe that (IN REAL, not in office papers!) Lipfert (and maybe others too) downed many more planes than Hartmann... It was just a propaganda. |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
hi,
many thanks for your great info, I am considering opening another post only about Lipfert... HGabor i think you are right, maybe Hartmann is more accuracy in first 100 or 150 claims... but Lipfert i think +75% in all claims..... regards |
Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
Ok, so to be practical, here is what I have been able to compile about Hartmann's known actual victims and instances of overclaiming so far.
Can we all co-operate to correct and add to this list? (With thanks to those who have contributed to its compilation...) Nick No.1, IL-2 on 5.11.42/1205 over PQ 44793, Digora (Caucasus) @ 400m: 7 GShAP, 4 VA. No further details known. No.3, LaGG-3 on 9.2.43/0655-0750 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86722) @ 1000m: 66 IAP lost St.Lt. Ilya Vladimirovich Khludenev KIA this date (was this him?) No.4, Boston on 10.2.43/0615 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86671) @ 3200m: Was this from 45 BAP? They suffered some losses this date No. 7, P-39 on 15.4.43/1533 over Taman: 45 IAP, either 41-38451 of Starishiy Leytenant M Petrov or 42-4606 of Serzhant Bezbabnov (but see Waldemar Eyrich's claim). Both KIA No.16, U-2 on 15.5.43/1210 over Titarovskaya station (Taman) (PQ 86544) @ low altitude: HQ 278 IAD. Leytenant Vladimir Ivanovich Ershov (senior pilot)[KIA] 274 IAP (3 IAK) and passenger Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Ivanovich Kryukov [MIA] 43 IAP (3 IAK) No. 22, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0350: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement) No. 23, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0352: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement) No. 29, LaGG on 8.7.43/0905 over Ugrim (PQ 61223) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA No. 30: LaGG on 8.7.43/0910 over Ugrim (PQ 61221) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA No. 31, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1805 over Ugrim (PQ 62872) @ 2500m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore) No. 32, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1825 over Ugrim (PQ 61134) @ 1000m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore) No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA No. 52, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1019 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61391) @ 3500m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA No. 53, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1030 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61331) @ 2000m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA No. 89: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0607 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged No. 90: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0608 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged No. 94, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 5000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return No. 95, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 4000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return No. 96, "LaGG" on 19.9.43/1440 over PQ 58614 @ 1200m: Likely a Yak of 812 IAP. Lt Georgiy Pavlovich Churakov KIA (came down Andreyevka, landed safely but found dead in his aircraft by Soviet troops the following day. Best match by location, timing a little out) Nos. 98-100, 2 LaGGs and a P-39 on 20.9.43: 288 IAD, 17 VA lost at least one Yak-7 this date Nos. 106 & 107, P-39s on 26.9.43: 9 GIAD (16, 100 and 104 GIAPs), 8 VA. Misidentification or overclaiming, no losses this day No. 112, P-39 on 29.9.43/0855 over Zaporozhe (PQ 58682) @ 4000m: Probably Maj. Vladimir Grigorievich Semenishin HSU, 2 x OL, ORB and OPW 1st Class of 104 GIAP KIA No. 120, P-39 on 2.10.43/1140 over Novo Zaporozhe (PQ 58 581) @ 5000m: possibly Podpolkovnik (?) Arkadiy F Kovachevich of 9 GIAP. Baled out near Melitopol and survived Nos. 163-165, P-39s on 8.1.44: 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 and 304 IAD). These claims are believed to be against 69 GIAP, 304 IAD. Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev damaged and returned safely (three bullet holes) and one other damaged and bellylanded No. 192, P-39 on 4.2.44/1140: 129 GIAP. St.Lt. Bekashonk and his wingman (Ml.Lt. Koshel'kov). Overclaiming, no actual loss No. 193, P-39 on 26.2.44/0908: 129 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Leontiya Zadiraki baled out and returned safely No. 194, P-39 on 26.2.44/0916: 205 IAD or 304 IAD. Overclaiming, no other losses at this time No. 195-199, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov baled out safely, Starshiy Leytenant Nikolay Arsenovich Zinchenko (HSU) KIA and Leytenant Mamin also baled out. Ml.Lt. Demchenko's P-39 was slightly damaged and Ml.Lt. Motuzko's was sent to PARM for major repairs after bellylanding 12km S of Kirovograd) Nos. 200 & 201, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. These were likely the P-39 of Leytenant Lusto, only damaged or another claim for Vodolazhskiy (also claimed by Rall and Bachnick) No. 202: 438 IAP P-39 on 26.2.44/1440. This was likely Leytenant Oleynikov, known to have baled out safely 10 minutes after Vodolazhskiy did No. 212-217, LaGGs on 5.5.44: One of these may have been Leytenant Ivanov of 402 IAP, 265 IAD. KIA this date, attributed to Lipfert or Hartmann Nos 249 & 250, P-39s on 4.6.44: During 4th sortie, Hartmann and Birkner were jumped by 2 Aircobras, Hartmann claimed both. They were flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both returned home unscathed No. 264, P-51C-5-NT Mustang on 24.6.44/0950: 42-103599/42 of 318th FS, 325th FG. Joseph W Harper MIA (Diekmann and Birkner claimed as well) Nos. 296, 299 & 300, P-39s on 24.8.44: 9 GIAD. Very likely overclaiming, only one loss this date: an aircraft that was separated from its parent formation, pilot MIA No. 304, Yak-9 on 27.10.44/1016 over Nyregynaza (PQ 18265) @ 2500m: 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut No. 309, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1410: Possibly 0215354 of 179 IAP, 331 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev No. 311, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1425: Possibly 11186 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Ml.Lt Aleksandr Titovich Kotlyar No. 317, Boston on 17.11.44/1425 over PQ 98584 @ 2000m: A definite Soviet Boston loss to fighters this date came from 453 BAP, 218 BAD, 5 VA No. 319, La-5 on 22.11.44/1145 over PQ 98452 @ 4500m: Possibly 177 GIAP, 14 GIAD, 5 VA. Pilot Kovrigin shot down in dogfight in Hatvan area Nos. 320 & 321, IL-2s on 22.11.45: Possibly 809 ShAP, 264 ShAD, 5 VA. Overclaiming, only one loss: crew of Polunin-Kuptsov, crashlanded 7km NW of Csany. Repaired and returned to service (attributed by Soviet sources to AAA). No. 352, Yak on 8.5.45: 2 VA, 5 VA or 17 VA, pilot said to be KIA |
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