Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

To all internautes…

Of course. I apologise… I was fighting for weeks to get those documents that I had already seen. This is so logic…

All my messages had only one goal : I wanted to get a copy of those documents to complete my researches on this sad air combat…

Now we are going nowhere except to hell… : messages getting more and more aggressive.

But be sure that I have nothing against Mr Roger Pierre or Mr Many Souffan. I am not angry at all. I am not that kind of person. In fact I like the way they fight for their idea… This is great and I will always encourage this. I love our liberty. This forum is perfect. Anybody could speak freely…

But now this is time to leave because I am sure I won’t get any answer… I regret it. I thought this forum would help me.

Anyway the truth will be published soon in French and in English in memory of those airmen killed in action on that 14th May 1940 by French fighters of GC III/7…

Yours sincerely


Arnaud Gillet

FRANCE

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

I have been following this thread with interest in the hope that it might throw further light on the exact circumstances of the losses to No.142 Squadron on May 14, 1940. Regretably, however, it now seems increasingly unlikely that any valid evidence of historical value is going to result. So my own view, for what it is worth - but it has been sought, and in the absence of any substantive evidence to the contrary, must remain as stated in The Battle of France Then & Now.

Improbable as it no doubt is, Arnaud Gillet’s assertion that the losses were a result of mistaken attacks by GC III/7 does, at least, equate to currently available documentary evidence particularly with regard to the times and location of Allied claims and German losses. That was my judgement when, (with some reservation it has to be said), I accepted this view during preparation of my own work. If this be discredited as a result this is entirely my own doing.

So, while I remain impartial, I am favourably inclined towards the alternative scenario as described by Many Souffan, although this currently requires me to acknowledge the loss of six Hs126 not reported in the Lw General Quartermaster Returns*, and also accept four Fairey Battles shot down by Bf109Es that similarly went unrecorded in the OKL Fighter Claims. A version of events that seems equally implausible to that proffered by Arnaud Gillet.

*While any record-keeping system can be flawed, the suggestion that aircraft losses to Lw units detached or operating as subordinate to the Heer were not routinely reported through Lw channels in the normal manner is not the answer. It also ignores the fact that every one of the units cited submitted losses to the Genst.Gen.6.Abt. under the heading Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.H. between May 11 and May 19, 1940. Though none of these reported losses conform to the details quoted by Many Souffan.

Finally, whether Many Souffan is fully aware of its origins or not - for I know such information can circulate, Arnaud Gillet is probably close to the truth when he suggests the late Heinrich Weiss as a possible source for the intriguing list of (otherwise) unrecorded Hs126 losses on May 14, 1940. The Weiss narrative certainly contains this exact same information but, unfortunately, without comment as to his own original source. This ‘magic bullet’ therefore remains uncorroborated but I remain hopeful that we may yet arrive at the true facts of this matter.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Arnaud,

On the 14th of May 1940, No.142 Squadron was operating from Berry-au-Bac, sharing this airfield with No.1 Fighter Squadron. On this same date No.67 Wing H.Q was at Guignicourt.
Many told about No.142 Squadron C.O's report, and a citation. 7 crews returned to the squadron.
Peter, all 4 Battles were not necessarily lost to 109's!
Peter has explained why he tends to share your opinion regarding these losses.
Many hasn't published anything yet. Anyway, I know the man, his motivation and I trust him.
I have my own opinion.
But as you have written and published, and are selling your book.
Please you tell us wich is the source that allows you to declare that these Battles were shot down by French Fighters !!

Many thanks.

Regards.

Bernard.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Bonjour.

Thank you Peter for your answer. Disappointed to wait for so long your post.

I would like to give the anwser in his original language for the 4 Hs 126 concerned.

unfornutaly, I don't speak or write, or understand German, It is a great handicap for me when I go to the Ba-Ma, but it is not so important for me, as I said in a previous post, I go always where my subject is. I like the communication.

If I give these infos in his original language, is to know what think the specialists of the Luftwaffe, that all.

I will give, in a very next future the list of the Luftwaffe units attached to the Heer at the 10th may 1940. And I repeat if there were some losses in these units, you will find them with the Heer.


Chemery 12.54; 1 Hs 126B der 3.(H)/21; Aufklärung fur das XIX.AK mot; durch Jager beschadigt >60% und Notlandung hinter den eigegen Linien: Crew unver­letzt.

Chemery 13.00; eine Hs 126B der 2. (H)/23 Pf der 1.Panzerdivision; durch Jäge schwer beschädigt und nach deutschen Angaben bei Jehonville 7 km nordwestlich Betrix abgestürzt. Crew Fallschirmabsprung, dabei Beobachter (Bo) Fw.d.Res. Franz Pörr verwundet.

Vendresse; eine Hs 126B der 3.(H)/21 des XIX.AK mot.; durch Jäger beschädigt und mit >60% Bruch hinter den eigenen Linien notgelandet, Crew unversehrt.

Villers Ie Tilleul; eine Hs 126N der 1. (H)/11 PZ, die für die 7.Panzerdivisio nördlich Le Chesne aufklärte. Durch Jägerangriff beschädigt, machte die unverletzte Besatzung bei der Notlandung Bruch >60%;

thank you Arnaud for your kind post but why to finish with these words:
Anyway the truth will be published soon in French and in English in memory of those airmen killed in action on that 14th May 1940 by French fighters of GC III/7…

The memory of these Germans is better than the French Fighters of III/7, or the British crews of Battle of 142 Sqn. ? ? ? Tell me ? ? ?

Ps: Don't forget to share your sources you didn't write in your 3 books.

Sincerely yours

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Ooops!!!

I forget to say my document is a letter in German of this searcher, and I give a part of this letter

Thank you

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Thank you Many, I appreciate that you are doing what you can to satisfy questions as to your sources, but simply having the same information now presented in three different languages gets us no further forward I'm afraid. The source of the original documentary evidence would at least allow us to better evaluate its potential value and significance but I accept that you may not know this. Also, my earlier comments with regard to Lw casualty reporting still apply.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Have rather overlooked this thread. Firstly let me say I have a lot of respect for the research efforts of Arnaud.

I thought it would be useful to add the full text of the three gallantry recommendations for this action, which are below. These are contemporary sources signed four days after the action and one must remember that the award is for ‘in the face of the enemy’ so any Senior Officer signing such a recommendation is going to make as sure he can be the facts are right.

Note:
Planes are Messerschmitts
There were nine attacking planes
The attack continued as enemy ground forces were being bombed
The attack was over enemy lines

I suspect we will never know the truth of the incident but this combined other reported accounts by other aircrew present leave me with a balance of probability that it was German planes.

Best regards

Iain

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

BARBROOKE, Drury John (551271) Corporal (Wireless Operator/Air Gunner)
D.F.M. (Immediate)London Gazette 31 May 1940
Recommended 18 May1940,

The above named airman is strongly recommended for the immediate award of the Distinguished Flying Medal for his efforts in a raid on an enemy convoys on 14th May 1940 a summary of which is as follows:-

Whilst approaching the target his machine was attacked by nine Messerschmitts who completely shot way all the tail controls. Whilst the aircraft was rapidly losing height, four bombs were dropped, two of which were on the target. During the aircrafts dive to the ground, this airman, as Air Gunner, kept up a continuous fire at the enemy fighters. Corporal Barbrooke had to make his own way back to the aerodrome together with the Air Observer after taking the pilot to hospital suffering from burns. He covered many miles on foot, was arrested as a spy and spent one night in custody.


KITTO, Richard Vellenoweth Trethewey (563186) Sergeant (Observer/Navigator)
D.F.M. (Immediate)London Gazette 31 May 1940
Recommended 18 May1940,

The above named airman is strongly recommended for the immediate award of the Distinguished Flying Medal for his efforts in a raid on enemy convoys on 14th May 1940.

Whilst approaching the target his machine was attacked by nine Messerschmitts who completely shot way all the tail controls. Whilst the aircraft was rapidly losing height, four bombs were dropped, two of which were on the target. During the aircrafts dive to the ground, this airman, as Air Observer, kept up a continuous fire at the enemy fighters. Sergeant Kitto had to make his own way back to the aerodrome together with the Air Gunner after taking the pilot to hospital suffering from burns. He covered many miles on foot, was arrested as a spy and spent one night in custody.

SPEAR, Arthur Nolan (561369) Sergeant (Pilot)
D.F.M. (Immediate) London Gazette 31 May 1940
Recommended 18 May 1940

After successfully dropping his bombs, he was attacked by Messerschmitts, the tail of his aircraft being shot away. He ordered his crew to abandon the aircraft. He himself was thrown out whilst preparing to jump and landed by parachute in enemy territory. He was repeatedly under enemy fire but, through sheer determination and assistance of horse, succeeded in overcoming each obstacle as he met it, including swimming a canal, and made his way back to his unit. This was the second occasion within a week on which Sergeant Spear had been forced down whilst operating against the enemy.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Bonjour,

I see now clearly what happened... I would like to thank all of them for this super chat... High show...

I wonder if someone as M. Ian Torrance could add something else to add to this mission of No 142 Squadron... I will soon receive several photographs from I.W.M. but airmen are unidentified like the one coded C. 403.

Does anybody know one of the families of those pilots of No 142 Squadron ? Does anybody have photographs about this squadron or about airmen who took part on that mission. I am also looking for pilot's log books. I contact some museums, but without success...

I will be thankfull to all people who would like to help me... and will thank them officially in my little book dedicted to this unique mission of May 14th 1940 to be published soon. I hope this year but the translation in english take time.

Yours sincerely

Arnaud Gillet

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello!

Firstly Thank you Iain, Paul, Peter and Franck

Franck, just a little question, I liked your link, but why you give WT as code for the 142 Sqn. It is not QT?


In your post 61Arnaud, you have written in French this:
- un Henschel 126 de la 2.(H)/23, Feldwebel Pörr (lire Dörr), posé à Chémery à 13.00. »

I translate which is in bold: Feldwebel Pörr (read Dörr). How do you know is Dörr? Incredible! It is really Pörr! Maybe you made a mistake with the famous Fighter pilot of JG 5 Franz Dörr (RK, 132 Victories) !?!? Maybe for some gentlemen this remark can be insignificant, but not for me, because it seems to say by this affirmation, that Mr Gillet knows better than me, the fact…

I would like to translate only one line of the first book of Mr Gillet about the French victories during the Battle of France. There is at the end of this 1st opus, a recapitulation in form of table in 2 columns between French claims and German losses

Down page 132, it is written, always for the 14th may 1940
1st column: 1 II/1 10.30 am Cne Coiral, Lt maurin, Sgt Largeau 1 Hs126, in flames at Vrignes-aux-Bois, confirmed by Z.O.A.N
2nd Column: no Hs126 damaged or shot down reporting in this sector. Approx 3.15 pm, a Fairey Battle, Sqn 12 (L4950) shot down at Vrignes-aux-Bois.

When you read the 2 columns, as reader, it is possible to make a little confusion and to say here too another battle shot down for Hs 126 by 3 French Pilots of GC II/1 in their Bloch 152. Because Arnaud Gillet, affirms no Hs 126 damaged or shot down in this sector.

What said the German document?
14.5. Vrigne au boise; 1 Hs 126B der 1. (H)/14 Pz, die für die 2.Panzerdivision auf­klärte; bei Vrigne au bois durch frz. Jäger schwer beschädigt, die Crew sprang über eigenen Gebiet unverletzt mit den Fallschirmen ab.
Do you think that some French pilots are Liars?
Why so much affirmation in your text?
You must know Arnaud Gillet, it is always difficult to match documents and you must have patience, reflexion, and if it is not sure, problematic, you can add some words as maybe, probably, it is possible, sorry my English is poor to translate what I think in French.

Since the beginning of this thread, I ask you and not only me, to give or as you like to share with us your sources, that I repeat you didn't put in your books.
But it is easy for you to forget to give sources. Maybe you don't have sources? , Maybe it is only your imagination ? or you are thoroughly convinced that it happened like that? it is maybe only feeling? Maybe you thought that you had in hand a scoop? who Know?

Sorry, but I try my best to understand, and I repeat, all that, is without angryness and always with respect for your person. For me, the most important is the Memory of all brave young men; French, German & British, These unknown heroes deserve to be rewarded for what they done. And for many of them they gave their life... When you understand the past, you can see the future clearly...

Thank you.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello Many
It isn't my website and I'm not the author of the lines which are published there. I just wanted to show to the knowledge of all what I had "found" on Web .
Regards
Franck

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Ooops!

I am sorry Franck.

And thank you for your Help.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello,

Thank you, we now know the serial numbers of the four Faiey battle's and the names of their crews and what became of them.

But

Those four German aircraft lost, who were their crews and what became of them please ?

Also may I ask who the French pilots were and who made claims for shoot downs that day in the time losses were ?

These details may already have been placed in this thread but I missed them if they were.

Thanks
Alex

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello Alex

Few infos

At 12.25, 7 pilots of III/7 take off from Vitry-le-François to the North to protect the slow Amiot 143 of GB I & II/34 and II/38 which will go to bomb the bridge of the Meuse (Maas) in the sector of Flize-Sedan, where the Spearhead of XIX Army Corps (mot) of Guderian a long time ago have crossed the Meuse (Maas) with their Panzers and have let Sedan behind them.

At 12h30, the 1 Pz. Div of Kirchner (a part of XIX Army Corps (mot)) has already reached Malmy, and almost finished to take Chemery. After a technical little stop it will reach easily Vendresse, 35 minutes after

At 12h45/50 our 7 French pilots arrived over the sector (level 1500/1800 m), over them, there are some dog fights between D520, Bloch 152 and in other part Bf 109 and Me 110. Under them The Hs 126 attached to the panzer divisionen are spying giving infos also for the units of Stukas which wait for the positions of French army for diving.

The French pilots of III/7 are:
1 section with Adj/C Bertrand-Cne Bouvarre-Slt Billoin,
Pair 1 with Cne Lacombe-Sgt Berthet
Pair 2 with Adj Littolff-Slt Mourier
Adj/C Bertrand who is leading the section, has also the mission to relate by « radiophonie » what happen. As Cdt Crémont the “Boss” of III/7 has written in his diary, he can hear perfectly in his Post of Control and can follow the progress of the mission…

12h54, Adj/C Bertrand saw the first Hs 126, he attacks with Slt Billoin by one side, Adj Littolff, Slt Mourier attack it in other side, Cne Bouvarre protect the attack. The Hs126 force landed at the east of the route nationale 77 at the north of Chemery where the Motorized Flak is already in action (Flak 83 light).
Claim for: Adj/C Bertrand, Slt Billoin, Adj Littolff, Slt Mourier

13h00 The 7pilots of III/7 attack it in noria. Sgt Berthet who attack the last, see a part of the fin to detach, the crew bail out.
Claim for: Cne Bouvarre, Cne Lacombe, Slt Mourier, Slt Billoin, Adj/C Bertrand, Adj Littolff, Sgt Berthet.

13h12 claim for Cne Lacombe, Slt Mourier, Adj Littolff, Sgt Berthet.
13h25 claim for Cne Bouvarre, Cne Lacombe, Slt Mourier, Slt Billoin, Adj/C Bertrand, Adj Littolff, Sgt Berthet.

The French Pilots begin their comeback 10/15 minutes after the last victory.
Sorry Alex but I can’t tell all the story I must keep some for my article.

Alex, about the names of the crews of Hs126, I have only who were wounded or dead…

Thank you.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello Many,
Thank you .
This is most helpful.

I do understand your reserve with regard to your article, so will not press you further.

As the Battle's were a separate incident later in the day, can you confirm the French pilots involved and perhaps their a/c details ( such as side numbers ) ?

[ If this info is already in this thread then I apologise - could you say which page or reply number ? thank you ].

Thank you
Alex

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello Alex.

My English is maybe no too good, But I don't think understand your question. Do you think that 4 Battle of 142 Sqn. were shot down by other French Pilots ?

If it is your question, I say no, They were shot down by German fighters and probably by 2 different units....

Thank you

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Many, I presume Alex is asking about serials and codes of French aircraft which attacked Henschels.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello Many,
See Franek's responce .

He has it, Yes the serial numbers and side codes/numbers of the French a/c that attacked the Henschels.

Thanks Franek for the understanding.

Thank you Many
Alex

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello Franek & Alex.

I have some infos about 2 or 3 of the 7 Morane, involved in this combat.
It is my main research for now, if in the file of the GC III/7 there are many infos about the combats and the missions, there are almost nothing about the planes, it is the same case for the photographs about planes and in particular for the 5ème escadrille. I am not desesperated yet... All infos are welcomed...

I wait for new materials the next days, and I think that I will keep now all infos for my article. It will be better like that.

Thank you

Ps: I wait for always, the sources of M Arnaud Gillet who didn't give them in his book, already printed out since 2003.... Why, this silence?

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Dear Many Souffan,

Unfortunately I don’t have any others sources as those mentioned in my books. For instance I have no information about British pilots saying that they were shot down by French pilots. They all say that they were shot down by Messerschmitt 109…


So you are perhaps right...

Yours sincerely

Arnaud Gillet

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello Mr Gillet;

Thank you for your answer.

Your answer seem's to me cryptic, enigmatic.

You begin by "unfortunately... and you finish by; "you are Perhaps right"

I don't care if I am right or not, this discussion for me is to understand how it came to you this hypothesis that 7 french Pilots have shot 4 Battle for 4 Hs 126. Your sources are too evasives. to write S H A A, it for me the same thing to find a ship in the ocean without instruments...

Please be sure, I do not want to make dirty, your reputation, or to not respect your work, but to advance and to have written your hypothesis without evidence, you have put some damages for the memories of these pilots (French, British or germans).

I repeat, I would like to understand

have a nice day

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

M Many Souffan,

Thank you for your answer. So I think you will correct me and publish soon an article about this mission.

Will it be published in the next Avions magazine ?

Yours sincerely

Arnaud Gillet

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Without wishing to add to what Peter so rightly describes as "these tedious exchanges", I would like to say a resounding "Hear, hear!" to Peter Cornwell's comments. There has been rather a lot of heat and little light, but plenty of blustering and rather infantile exchanges. Save for very few posts in this thread worthy of this excellent forum the rest has been just an exchange of dross and name calling. I respect much of the work done by Arnaud and Many but, please gentlemen, cannot you now - both of you- call a truce? You do yourself no favours and reduce to ridicule any credibility you may still have. If this is outspoken, then I suppose that is what I intend although I rarely put my head above the parapet (on this forum, at least!!) to make such bald or bold statements.

This is an excellent and extremely valuable forum, with heavyweight contrubutions from the likes of Peter Cornwell, Larry Hickey et al, but this thread is descending into nonsense. What Peter says, and has said elsewhere in this thread, is bang on. I, for one, am interested in this particular thread topic. I am extremely disinterested in some of the drivel it has generated. I doubt I am alone!!

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

" I, for one, am tired of this ‘pissing contest’. Arnaud has no evidence, worthy of the name, which lead him to arrive at the conclusions he did but, apparently, now makes the biggest climb-down since King Kong fell off the Empire State Building "

What a pleasure to read a forthright and honest appraisal of this tread that as in my opinion prattled on for far far too long.

Not my area of expertise hence no involvement or posts, but please lets put this tread out of its misery. !

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello, Hello Peter.
What is your problem?
I can understand that you are tired by this story, and maybe also stimulated by a little angriness, (maybe against me?), because, you are in this story like a collateral damage.
Because you follow the wrong assertion of Mr Gillet, without trying some correlations and it is difficult for you. And I I respect sincerely your difficulty...
It mist the loss of 5 Hs 126 for only the 14th may in your book, and I can say a minimum 16 other Henschel Hs126 are not in your book for the aeras of Sedan, Marne and Champagne… As for example the Hs 126 B the 2.(H)/12 of 6 Army Corps (VI. AK of Gen Förster) which forced landed with 65% damage south of Bouillon, the 26th may, without injuries for the crew, shot by “Cobber” Kain…. Because you didn’t know as many other serious searchers that the losses were with the Heer.

I like very much your book, and I am serious when I write this. Your book is a “must” and it has to appear at the right place in the good bookcase (library) of a person who is interested in the air war in the Western Europe during the WWII. It is not a problem for me if it missed some losses, nothing is perfect, your book is useful, honest, important & easy to read.

Many, meantime, is equally unable to provide any proper evidence to corroborate his own version of events.
Why to write that, I have the proofs and you will read themprecisely in my article in Avions. And I can help you also to correct some French losses, if you want, naturally…

Please I have nothing against you, and I respect you as I respect your work.

For the readers tired, who think it is infantile, or it's too much for this thread, sorry I am too serious maybe, but I like to be respected as It is more important to respect the memories of these pilots. I invite them to read again my posts from the beginnings they will have already an answer of why of my determination.
Nobody is perfect, firstly me

Ps Peter I will try to send you a private email...

Thank you for, and again sorry for my English and if it is too long.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

As our two french friends are slowly coming to an agreement of sorts, I'd suggest a breathing pause.

It would be very unfortunate to start a new argument as the previous one has just died down...

The point has been clearly made.

Thank you.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Ruy/Many,

I have no desire to perpetuate this thread for reasons already stated but as Many addresses me direct I feel it is only polite to respond. So, thank you Many for the further post and for your comments. I am not angry, (a foreign emotion – my sang is well and truly froid), merely bored by the recent exchanges between yourself and Arnaud which offer nothing of substance to advance mutual understanding of events. And, frankly, still don’t.

You are wrong to suggest that I simply followed Arnaud’s work without question. The fact remains that 1) there are no German fighter claims to correspond with the loss of the four Battles, and 2) there are no Hs126 losses listed in the Lw Quartermaster General’s Returns to correspond with the French fighter claims. For me, these are both important omissions that deserve better explanation than has been provided to date. But given this, I could see how Arnaud arrived at the conclusion that he did. And while I (still) fail to comprehend how such a thing could have happened, in the absence of any information to the contrary, and given the facts as described, I accepted those findings with an appropriate acknowledgement and suitable caveat.

Your own version of events may make more sense (to me) but I need a lot more help than has been forth-coming so far in order to discount the simple facts outlined above. Hence my comment that you have been unable to provide any evidence to substantiate your statements. And if your now much-publicised article for Avions (and good luck to you) fails to include some original contemporary documentation by way of corroboration this will remain so. Amen.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Thank you all ,

This has been a great discussion but at times has almost been lost.

However, I would just like to say that in the heat of battle and in reporting the actions afterwards is just that it is always from memory.

To support my remarks.

From either "Buffalos over Singapore" or "Hurricanes over Singapore" ( I forget which).
It is written that Pilots reported that they had sighted or had been attacked by Messerschmitts.
This was of course impossible but the reports were made at the time in good faith and from memory just after the event.

So it is equaly possible that those surviving Battle aircrew reported being shot at by Messerschmitts. When they were actualy shot at by French aircraft. Equally they could have reported that they were shot at by friendly aircraft when they had indeed been shot at by the enemy.

All the very best to you all
and thanks
Alex

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Messerschmitts were not just seen over Malaya, but even reported during the battle of the Coral Sea, by a most experienced and competent senior american pilot Lt.Cmdr. Paul H. Ramsay, (Co. VF-2) :) The Messerschmitt was in US identification manuals, thus influencing expectations of what you would see.

However, I must agree with Many, for one pilot to believe that a Battle is actually a Hs-126 is weird, but may happen, but for seven men to share the delusion is perverse. Confusing Hs-126 with Lysanders or Mureaux is understandable, but the Battle?

A short comment aimed mainly at Brian Cull, not related to the preceding discussion about events in France on May 14th 1940.
Prompted by the mentioning of Messerschmitts in Malaya.
Could it all be "friendly fire" incidents?
In researching the actions there, did you look into the possibility of the Messerschmitts actually being Hurricanes, (and for that matter, mistaking Ki-27 for "Zeroes" actually being Buffaloes?)

Birgir Thorisson.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hi Birgir

Yes, you are probably correct. I am sure the Buffalo pilots who thought they saw Bf109s had in fact encountered Hurricanes, although one did claim a Messerschmitt shot down (no Hurricane lost). Similarly, Buffalo and Hurricane pilots mistakenly identified Buffaloes as 'Zeros' (Ki-43s, in fact). Highly confusing.

Cheers
Brian

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

To All Concerned,

Can we please draw a line under this whole argument and just move on? I speak as a junior member of the forum, but have to say that I am surprised that so much effort and focus is being placed on this particular thread. As far as I can see it is simply a case of differing opinions, and a debate which is not supported on either side with unequivocal evidence. The thread is becoming increasingly petty and confrontational, and as such threatens to devalue the whole forum. If personal contributions are being made simply to advance personal agendas rather than to genuinely advance our understanding of these events then they have little value in my book.

I understand the strength of emotions that this subject generates, but unless someone can provide real physical or documentary evidence to support their personal opinions then let's just agree to differ and move on without further acrimony. If the individuals concerned feel unable to do this then maybe the forum moderator(s) should intervene.

Regards,

Ian

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

From one concerned,

I am not going to accept under the name of whatever is, that someone by wichever kind of logic is, would state that four RAF Fairey Battles would have been shot down by French fighter pilots without being able to provide any kind of serious argumentation.
The fact is that Mr Gillet in his book states this fact.
Without providing any worther source than his believing.

His book is published.
His book is sold.
Many people believe what is published!
Do you know about revisionism?

Sincerely yours.

Bernard.

There is no shame in stating that in this case I DON'T KNOW!.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Before the publication in french and in english of our developpement of the friendly fires of GC III/7 on May 14 1940 (around 100 pages), we would like to give you some informations about those 4 Henschel 126 as said "shot down on May 14 1940" :

http://aviation1940.site.voila.fr/page3.html

Arnaud Gillet

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Souscription :
La Furie / Fury :
Jusqu’au 10 mai 2010 au prix de 15 euros (20 euros après souscription), sortie espérée pour le 14 mai 2010 : chèques encaissés au paiement de l’imprimeur :
a envoyer à :
M. Arnaud Gillet
58, rue du Neuf-Bourg
51490 Bétheniville


Le 14 mai, les Français sont abasourdis apprenant la chute de Sedan… Les cœurs se serrent et les poings de referment, mais l’espoir d’une victoire s’éloigne au retour des nombreux bombardiers… Traumatisme dont l’ampleur décrite, ici, après vingt ans d’une recherche assidue dans les archives européennes et d’investigations sur le terrain dévoilant les manipulations, les non-dits, les secrets de cette catastrophique journée.
Un officier allemand, en particulier, assiste au combat du groupe de chasse III/7 qui se solde, d’après l’historique, par la destruction de quatre avions allemands, mais, en fait, de nationalité française et britannique à la suite d’une incroyable série d’erreurs, unique dans l’histoire de l’aviation : le comble d’une terrible journée marquée aussi par les nombreux retours inopinés à la base des bombardiers français refusant « le sacrifice suprême » sur Sedan, infestée de chasseurs et batteries antiaériennes…

On May 14 1940, the French were deeply stunned by the news of the fall of Sedan. One can imagine everyone’s pang of anguish or clenched fists…
Moreover on some French airfields and bases, the hope of a victory faded away when the few bombers that returned from mission over Sedan had been unsuccessful…
That traumatic experience is described in this book, after twenty years of extensive research in European archives and thorough investigations out in the field. Part of these efforts have allowed to focus on that tragic day and to discover manipulations, unvoiced comments, and secrecies behind the official version of events.
One German officer in particular witnessed the air battle involving fighters of III/7 Groupe. The Operations Record Book of that unit claimed the destruction of four German aircraft. It was in fact an unbelievable series of friendly fire, quite unique in aviation history, involving French and British aircraft – the last straw during that ill-fated day, also exceptional by the numbers of unexpected returned to base of French bombers, refusing the “sacrifice supreme” over Sedan infested with German fighters and anti-aircraft batteries…

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Arnaud, will it be a Bi-lingual publication?

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Bonjour M Ruy Horta,

This book, dedicated to men (French and British) shot dead during this combat, is in French (left pages) and in English (right pages). The French text had been translated by a friend and corrected by some English speaker researchers in aviation. I thank them very much for this precious help: one person met in this forum (thank to “12 O’clock high!”).

It is a A4 format with many precise maps, tables and photos (88 pages).

To pay the printer in May 2010, I ask my friends to subscribe in this purchase to May 10 2010 at a reduce price (15 euros, postage free for France, plus 2 euros for Europe, plus 4 euros for the rest of the world) then 20 euros. If someone from “12 O’clock high!” is interesting, it would be helpful… Unfortunately I am not a big company just a simple author and payment is difficult for Europeans. You could pay by IBAN…
http://aviation1940.site.voila.fr/index.jhtml

My book is at printer’s. I do hope it will be available for May 14 2010 for the 70th anniversary of this combat.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

La réponse de la WASt (Berlin) : sans commentaire...