Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Hi Michael

Don't know, between 14th of December 1944 and 14th January 1945, but guess you already know that. I have a feeling his flugbuch survived the war, perhaps it will surface one day.

Regards

Johannes

Another thought I had was that these Leistungsbuch papers came from the Hans Ring collection, I do know that he sometimes like to play games, he produced an abschusselist for Woidich which explains the 110 claims often quoted for him, yet his own abschusselist doesn't contain the twenty-eight claims for July 1944 that Ring included, in fact these twenty-eight claims not only do not fit the constant pattern of Woidich's claims, but JG 52 just wasn't claiming this month...…..I would guess because they were constantly moving base.
I think the huge Ring collection has started to surface in sales as Hans is now in a care home, he is a strange guy, often very friendly, and cared for his Mother who he lived with, guess she must have died, I can remember when she was 103 years old, and that's a few years ago.

See Woidich attached biography and note the(Ring)July 1944 claims(not on the mikrofilms) and see how out of place they appear.Attachment 17430

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Good evening Johannes,

yes you mentioned that strange Woidich issue.
http://www.jg52.net/ritterkreuztraeger/franz-woidich/
What might have been the motivation of Hans Ring to do this ?

Have a good December,

Michael

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Hi Michael

Have never meet Herr Ring, but a couple of my friends have. They said he was a friendly and generous guy, so don't know what motivated him. He used to attend lots of Luftwaffe reunions, then one day somebody upset him, don't know who or what was said, but Herr Ring then stopped attending reunions, and basically stopped cooperating with Luftwaffe enthusiasts.

I can only imagine that his motivation was being tired of being constantly asked for information, so liked to play a joke or two.

I think he is still alive and living in a care home, as his Mother lived well into her hundreds then hopefully his own lifespan will be a very long one. His most wonderful documental collection seems to be being sold-off. Whereas I would like to get hold of some of this, well the biggest Luftwaffe documental collection in the World, I guess I am just happy that it's importance has been understood and it's not just been thrown in a skip somewhere.


Kind Regards


Johannes

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

I noticed that all the photographs attributed to Herr Ring in the original "Fighters Over Tunisia' have not been included in the new New Mediterranean series by C. Shores.

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Good morning Johannes,

Dahl might have fooled Hans Ring with a faked Leistungsbuch,
Woidich's 110 kills might be a bogus of Ring himself,
do you think there is hope to clarify Kurt Tanzer's "143" kills by use of the Hans Ring collection ?
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...zer#post258122

Have a good Tuesday,

Michael

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Hi Michael

Agreed, it's hard to tell what is correct here.

Regarding Kurt Tanzer, still very baffling, purely by memory he gets a Ritterkreuz for just thirty or so Russian claims...……..way too few, though he was Rorrenflieger to Oskar-Heinz Bar and Karl-Gottfried Nordmann, he gets wounded in May 1943 and doesn't return to combat(allegedly) until 1945, yet his wound cannot have been that great, wounded in the hand!, you might expect to be flying again the next day, a few months off if you loose the whole hand, again puzzling. The Mikrofilms should have shown him if he claimed before December 1944, but again nothing, I do have him mentioned in a flugbuch of a JG51 pilot during April 1945, so he definitely returned to actual combat as a Staffelkapitan in 1945.

Just where we get the 128 or 143 from originally I just don't know, you would surmise a miss quote of 43, yet we are informed of seventeen Western "kills" including four viermots……...now that's very specific indeed. Ernst Obermaier's biography is very vague after May 1943, in fact nothing until September 1944, though Ernst estimates/guestimates his hundredth falling around June 1944...…...but this is just purely subtracting an average kill rate until the wars end. Basically as John Foreman has always maintained "once published, it's cast in stone" i.e Herr Obermaier's work is so well respected that everybody just copies it.


What we need in a flugbuch, preferably his last, we don't know how he surrendered in 1945, if to the Russian's perhaps he destroyed his last flugbuch, if to the American's it's likely to have been stolen. Hopefully somebody can answer the question of how he surrendered.


Tanzer never really reached any great rank, so I would not expect him to have been making false claims, unless a trade-off with a noteworthy superior, and we are informed by Obermaier about the Bar/Nordmann connection...…….but is even this correct, by my estimates Bar had left Russia before Tanzer's arrival, and Nordmann was rarely flying combat. Another option would be that Tanzer had changed his name and that he had many more claims prior to being wounded , but I don't think this is the case.


I believe that basically we know nothing factual about the guy except thirty something "kills" before being wounded, and that he returned to combat during 1945. Let's the specialists dig into his past, perhaps it'll dig up something.


Ernst Obermaiers first (and inferior of the two) publication was I think in 1968, Tanzer dies in 1960, but there is no reason why they shouldn't have been in communication , or actually met, It is possible that Tanzer stated the figures Obermaier used...…...he lied, but as he doesn't seem to be an over-claimer(With Walther Dahl we can dismiss his honesty), it's not likely. Perhaps also somebody can do a claims/losses comparison, though it wont's be easy with so many claims made.


Kind Regards


Johannes


Johannes

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Johannes, would you like me to share what I have on Tanzer?

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Yes please Nick

(Just in case Johannes misses this offer... :) )

Cheers
Stig

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Hi Nick

Yes, that is a big yes for Tanzer information, anything really, he is actually very obscure, almost unbelievable so considering his Ritterkreuz status.

Your expectantly

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Nick Hector claims to have decisive Tanzer documents ?

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

I trust you read his post. No such claim is made there so why not wait and see what he has to say?

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Hi Stig and Johannes,

It's extremely hard to find much about either Tanzer or Woidich at all, but I hope what I have turned up helps provide a few pieces of the mosaic

Tanzer and Woidich

Kurt Tanzer

2.8.42/0900
IL-2 Sturmovik
10km W of Rzhev (PQ 47581) @ low altitude
3 VA. Their losses this date include 685 ShAP's Ivan Prokolyevich Sidchenko and 451 ShAP's Serzhant Mikhail Andreevich Sorokin

5.8.42/0450
Pe-2
20km ESE of Dugino (PQ 46442) @ 1500m
Believe this was the engagement in which crew of Lt. Nikolay Nikolayevich Sokolov (KIA) of 285 BAD was brought down. Falkensamer claimed too

3.12.42/1150
IL-2 Sturmovik
20km SSW of Velikiye Luki @ 1000m
Ml.Lt. Ivan Nikolaevich Aleko with gunner Ivan Vladimirovich Storozhenko of 800 ShAP both KIA

16.1.43/0814
Pe-2
PQ 07553 @ 1000m
804 BAP, 293 BAD. Other losses were Ml. Lt. Mikhail Efimovich Syromyatnikov KIA and Ml. Lt. Nikolay Dmitievich Korolev MIA (total of 7 KIA and MIA)
(Gustl Mueller and Martin Schamberger are credited with downing the crew of Mayor Vladimir Yakovlevich Gavrilov survived (It appears Mueller attacked it, Schamberger finished it off))

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Franz Woidich
21.11.41/1500
P-40 Tomahawk
7km S of Ain-el-Gazala
2 sqn SAAF. Lt. D A Hinde returned safely (credited to flak or engine damage by allied sources)

22.11.41/1635
P-40 Tomahawk IIB
NW of Bir Hacheim
3 sqn RAAF and 112 sqn. 112 lost Sgt. Henry George Burney, RAAF in AM390/GA-W (returned). 3 lost Sgt. Ronald Henry Simes in AM507/Z also returned whilst F/L Lindsay Eric Shaw Knowles AN410 , F/O William Kloster in AK390 and P/O Lawton "Sammy" Lees AN305/E(?) were all KIA as was F/O F Fischer in AK407. F/O H G Roberts in AN373 POW
(there were about 5 claims in total)

15.3.42/1135
Curtiss P-40
20km SE of Ain-el-Gazala @ 400-500m
260 sqn, Sgt. T Parrot. Damaged (rightly unconfirmed)

2.9.42/0536
Pe-2
5km NE of Kopetowka (PQ 46214) @ 1500m
Likely 2 BAP. Crew of Serzhant Anatoly Pavlovich Terekhov failed to return

28.10.42/1505
Yak-1
6km NW of Achtuba (PQ 69573) @ 2500m
Ivan Fedorovich Stepanov of 287 IAD? KIA near Achtuba this date

4.8.43/1410
La-5 ("LaGG-5")
PQ 61 683 @ 200m
Day's La-5 losses include Petr Kucherenko of 302 IAD KIA

15.8.43/0730
PQ 60158 @ 3000m
Day's La-5 losses include Mladshiy Leytenant S G Balakin of 295 IAD KIA

22.8.43/0955 and 1001
2 x La-5 ("LaGG-5")
Day's La/LaGG losses include Ml.Lt. Vasilii Nikolaevich Fadeev of 297 IAP, 4 IAK KIA

17.12.43/1227
P-39 Airacobra
N of Novogodka @ 800m
Day's P-39 losses in air combat in the south include 129 GIAP, Ml.Lt. Anatoly Andreevich Fomin KIA
(there were many claims for P-39s….)

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Thanks Nick

You are doing just great! Some of us certainly appreciate your inputs!! :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Thanks, Stig.

I invite and welcome any corrections and additions. Every little piece contributes to the overall picture

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Nick,

I no longer hang out on FB but I always enjoy your updated vic tally postings for the fighter pilots--you or somebody really needs to start up a website like The Old Petr Kacha site.

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Oh hi there, Nick!

Yes, long time no hear. Hope you've been well.
If somebody was prepared to webmaster such a site, I would happily contribute. As you'd know, I gave some assistance to Petr Kacha back in the day but all these years later I am the first to own up that the website is quite far out of date.

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Does that help to clarify the Tanzer-143-kills-enigma ?

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Remind us what you have really contributed to the subject in the course of over a thousand posts....?

And maybe, just maybe, wanting to be "officially" told exactly which number to "meticulously" and "painstakingly" write next to his name is not all some members wish to know about him.

I posted at the invite of two other members, after asking one of them in advance if they would be interested if I did so. Afterward, two members thanked me for what I contributed.

Hint for you, Knusel. Don't try getting too clever with people unless having threads closed down is genuinely a hobby of yours....

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Perhaps not

But it certainly helps us to understand why Johannes has not been able to locate more than 35 claims made by him.

What would be much more interesting to know is who first came up with his 143 claims nonsense? When Tanzer died in 1960 few, if any, WW 2 historians had begun to approach the survivors and as far as I know Tanzer never wrote a 1950's style book of self promotion, meaning it feels a bit unlikely to have been himself. But who knows?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Good evening Stig,

I tried to track the 143 kill through the books I have:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...0&postcount=38

Have a good start into the new week,

Michael

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Michael

That is unfortunately a very futile excercise, since it means aboslutely nothing.

I gladly stand corrected, but
a) Tolliver/Constable never made any research of themselves into any German records what so ever. They met and talked to a lot of pilots and were among the first trying to bring some kind of "justice" back to Luftwaffe without bringing too much politics into the subject, BUT remember they were from USA and the cold war was very "hot" at the time....
b) Don't know about Musciano, but I have serious doubts....
c) Aders/Held, no idea why they suddenly lower the score, but if anyone can prove they have done any kind of research, well, stand up and be counted!!:)
e) Weal? Don't know him, but I find it strange he just copied source a and b.
Own research? Not what I have heard!

Bottom line is you are chasing the rainbow.
It is like if you are religious or not. Either you believe which makes what anyone else says irrelevant, or on the other hand, don't believe, and open your ears and eyes for some kind of alternative truth.

To determine that truth you stand in front of a, at present enigma, because you need to either learn Russian, apply for a clearance and drown yourself in probably a million+ documents in Russian archives, wait for Russian friends to publish every claim/loss on the Eastern Front, preferably in English (which they are nowhere near doing), or perhaps give up.

After that you need to evaluate each Soviet/German claim/loss report on a basis of a political system prevailant on both sides at the time vs what really happened.

Finally you need to determine (as Johannes desperately tries to do for the Luftwaffe) was each German claim made in good faith or were they "lies", or were they part of a system provoking certain individuals to make fantasy claims? That same criteria then goes for the Soviet pilots. We know they overclaimed just as much as the German pilots did. All of them were stuck within a basic frame of mind they simply could not get out of.

Another bottom line is that your somewhat aggressive mind and attitude makes it very difficult to know what you are actually after. Many individuals here are both hurt and offended by that and answer back with the same provocative mind.

I myself is a nobody when it comes to Luftwaffe research, but I have adopted a different approach. I listen to those who knows more than me. I ask questions without (at least I hope so) any pointed fingers and I try to understand what these persons are saying to me. I am sure many find both my questions and sometimes my answer both silly and self evident, but I also believe they also think I am doing that with good faith and answers me very kindly and friendly, which means I basically like everyone on TOCH.

It is up to you to create your own profile Michael, I am not going to lead you anywhere, but to earn respect you need to show respect to others, regardless if they tell "your" truth or an alternative one.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

A forum like this is all about an exchange of information....that means an individual has to contribute something......if you only ask questions without showing any drive to research the matter and to provide answers yourself.... then in the end members will stop answering questions....

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Hi Guys

Lets not fight.

Ernst Obermaier had an earlier 1960's publication of his Ritterkreuz book, I don't have this, but his 1980's publication is actually quite honest, he actually states for Tanzer victories uncertain, 128 and 143 have been stated. He also has an entry for Emil Pusch, states a possible date for Ritterkreuz, no Date of Birth, no unit, no number of victories. For some reason years ago I wrote under the entry that he flew with NJG 2 with thirty victories, but as an Oberfeldwebel he could have been a bordfunfer e.t.c, almost certainly he didn't claim as a pilot.

Michael if you have the 1960's book, can you please tell me what Obermaier states about Tanzer in it. This earlier version is much more vague generally, am hoping to establish if 128/143 is the case for this book, also what is the year of publication? We collectively can at least establish how far back the anomaly goes. You you do have the book, what does it state for Walther Dahl?

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

Many Luftwaffe pilots received the Ritterkreuz posthumously or after being wounded-out of the war, or not expected to return to combat. Now I know not if being wounded-out of the war was just a convenient break in which to award a Ritterkreuz for an under-par total. Perhaps Tanzer's 1943 wound to his hand, which despite his alleged huge blood loss seems minor compared to injures/wounds some pilots flew with, perhaps this wounds was in fact something much more severe, perhaps he was dragged from his sickbed in the dying months of the war like so many others!

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Hi Johannes

I have the first edition of Obermaier (1966), and he states there:
Total of 723 missions, including 187 fighter-bomber sorties, 143 victories (17 West, 4 four-engined).

I never knew Obermaier, so I cannot say if this is his own invention or not, but somehow he does not come across as a fantasy writer. I know he must have been a friend of Karl Ries, since they did at least one book together. If they also were friends of Hans Ring, is something I don't know, but together they sort of formed an early triangle of German historians back in the 1960s.

We also have to remember that during the 1960s to basically early 1990s everyone simply believed that all data coming from Germany was correct and no one really questioned their value. With more and more data coming from the other side in the East combined with deep research in remaining German files a different picture started to appear which also kept increasing.

I suppose that is where we stand now.

So was Obermaier the "inventor" or was he in turn "tricked" by someone else? No idea....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Good morning,

sometimes scores were faked posthumously by friends or relatives of the deceased (e.g. Mannock, Nishizawa...)

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Hi Guys

I agree Stig, probably Obermaier was mislead by somebody, but guess we will never know. Facts are then that the 143 has been in play from 1966 or before. It's also likely that Tanzer knew nothing of this. I would be surprised if Woidich knew of his 110 as he sent my friend Bernd Barbas his abschusselist which only contained eighty-two. Trouble is that we this that this is their life, for most of the survivors it was just a small piece that many would like to forget, don't suppose that Woidich bought publications to read about himself, so likely as I said he just didn't know, and likely Tanzer in the same position, and his early death didn't help him find out either, perhaps the 143 was even invented/miss-quoted between 1960(his death) and the 1966 Obermaier publication.

With what Michael said I think of Friedrich Wachowiak, here Obermaier credits him with eight-six minimum, but his Mother says 120, his comrades 140. Yet after a long combat free break he returns to take his total to exactly eighty-nine...…...again Obermaier is honest about hearsay, same with Ulrich Wohnert.

When I first started seriously compiling Luftwaffe data/totals I would use a sheet of paper and in the first line number what has previously been quoted, so take Erwin Lastowski using Obermaier's book I would have written forty-six numbers in column one, and noted the fronts in the last column i.e first twenty-five Russian, last twenty-one Allied, fourteen viermots, yet his total is only fifteen, ten Russian, five American viermots, Like Tanzer you wonder for what his Ritterkreuz was awarded, though with all fairness he did claim many other viermots that just not confirmed, as he himself mentioned they were unconfirmed they must have been H.S.S or E.V, yet he again doen't mention this either, I suspect Obermaier is confusing the points system in the West with "victories", but that doesn't explain the discrepancy with the Russian claims.

I still think there is information out there to influence how we credit obscure pilots like Tanzer's totals. History is a strange thing, we learn more about the truth the further from the actual time of the events we get.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Good morning Johannes,

yes, that's a wise choice of words.

Today is my last working day for 2018.
Thanks a lot for your praiseworthy historical research work.
I'm looking forward to read anything you will find out in the future.

I wish you and your family a happy Xmas time and a successful new year 2019 !

Michael

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Hi Michael

Many thanks, and the same to you.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Good evening Johannes,

for Xmas I received Lance Bronnenkant's BLUE MAX AIRMEN Vol12. Surprisingly and in contrast to the other German WW1 aces Eduard von Schleich has an extremely poor correlation of his claims with Allied losses. As his squadronmates do no come off much better, the author discusses if this is due to some kind of conspiracy by them or due to the possibility that the Allied loss records for this period and this part of the front having been lost.
Did you receive an airwar book for Xmas ?

Have some good final days of 2018,

Michael

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

Getting well off topic there, I think: better discussed in a new thread under "Books" or in a PM.

Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl
 

...what I failed to express: Eduard von Schleich might have been the worst overclaimer

or

...the victim of a severe loss of documents.

This is the range of possibilities in which guys like Dahl and Tanzer float.

Michael