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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Hi Craig,
Several losses on May 7, 1945 in Czech and Austria, but no Yaks were lost in the morning. On May 7, 1945 IL-2 Sturmoviks attacked the Miroslav and Znojmo (Brno-SW) area in Moravia in multiple waves throughout the day for the loss of several IL-2s: 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 715 ShAP, 2nd Sq., IL-2m3, S/N: 12656, white '25', was downed by flak, crashed in Miroslav. Crew of Ml.Lt. Petr Vasilevich Kravtsev - Nikolai Fedorovich Chertov was KIA. Last fatal combat loss of the 715 ShAP in WWII. Poor guys... 5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 130 GvShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 12586 crashlanded at their airfield after attacking Miroslav due to flak in the afternoon. Hitarashvili - Lebedin crew OK. 5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 130 GvShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 18895118 crashlanded at Zaichi(Зайчи?)-NW, 2 km, Hohenau-N,-NW, 30 km in the afternoon after attacking Miroslav. Later repaired, Nazarov-Velitskovich crew OK. 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 672 ShAP attacked the Znojmo area at Brno-SW, one IL-2m3, S/N: 18870106 crashed at Zizendorf(?), Austria en route home. Bershak crew OK. 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 1874799, white '95', crashlanded at Zaichi(Зайчи?) due to flak. Karpitskii-Savchenko crew OK. IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, S/N: 11461 was written-off for wear and tear. 5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-7FN, S/N: 45212545 was lost after escorting 9 IL-2 to Miroslav in the afternoon and crashlanded at base (Htrasshof, Austria) Ml.Lt. Alexandr Gerasimovich Spirin was unhurt. 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 190 GvShAP IL-2m3, S/N: 18872128 at 14:50 local, crashed at Dürnkrut-W, 5 km in Austria. Gv.Lt. Emelyan Sergeevich Anukhin Sq. commander crew OK. 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP, 1st Sq., IL-2m3 Sturmoviks, S/N: 1877086 and 11041 were repaired at base due to combat damages. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-1B, S/N: 18177 burned on Luzhitse (Лужице) airbase at 21:25 PM local due to maintenance mistake after mission. We still can check reports on dogfights, but there were no fighter losses for Hartmann, that's for sure. Overall I am a bit skeptic about the date errors/changes, because if we accept them, then there are no limits. If anything can change, then everything is possible, so then what's the point to investigate any claims at all? That is why I think here we have to stay with the written claims. If they messed them up, too bad, what is written is written. (Same for the soviets...) Summary: no matter how we twist them, looks like Hartmann's 352nd was just another overclaim - among his many. Regards, Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Just a side-note to the final days of WWII in Moravia. In May, 1945 the German opposition in the air has completely lost its power. Soviet crews of 5 and 17 VA very often have not even seen German planes in the air. If they have, then they were not aggressive at all, and tried to avoid any confrontation. In most cases they were just recce. planes, or air-cabs/taxies, transporting high officers to zones, where they could surrender to Western Allies, instead of the much feared soviet captivity. (Eg. He 111, lost on May 8, 1945, downed by Yaks of Gv.Lt.Col. Georgii Ageevich Lobov, commander of 7 GvIAD and his wingman, Svidirov, at Mělník (Praha-N) was probably just another taxi-flight to Western zone, as being (one of?) the last German air-to-air combat loss in Europe during WWII.)
But German tank- (Flakpanzer, flakvierling) and flak fire remained very dangerous until the last day. See the large number of IL-2 losses at low altitude, lost to flak (or flak related accidents.) Dogfights were extremely rare and this is why Hartmann's final claim is not realistic at all. Absolutely no sign of combat, or soviet fighter loss, that can match his 352nd claim. Neither Yak, nor La. Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Gabor,
Your comment about the Germans avoiding combat in the air makes sense and appears to be supported by known German claims data. Hartmann’s claim is the only claim that is known in this region of the Eastern Front in May 1945. According to Tolliver/Constable, Hartmann was sent on a reconnaissance mission by Graf “to find out how far the Russian spearhead was from Deutsch Brod” (JG52s airfield) when he made his last claim – which also supports your statement about Luftwaffe activities. So, yes aerial combat would be rare as you state. With respect to the date of the claim, I’m not trying to twist with date errors/changes as you suggest – I’m questioning the validity of the data that everyone is basing their research on. You state that we have to stay with the written claims but my point is that beside the Tolliver/Constable work based on Hartmann’s recollections, written and published 25 years after the event – a book that is full of errors - where is the written supporting documentation that confirms that this claim actually occurred on the 8th May?. – if it was based on hard data such as being recorded in the Unit KTB (last recorded Hartmann claim was his 150th claim on 17th April 1945), I would not be questioning the validity but as far as I can see it’s based on memory 25 years after the event. – Most researcher state that memoirs are generally unreliable for detailed information. If we’re lucky, Hartmann’s last logbook that was souvenired at the end of the war by his American captors will one day surface out of someone’s wartime memorabilia and answer many of these questions. Regards, Craig… |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Hi Craig, yes, that logbook would be a real treasure! I am afraid back then Hartmann's captors did not see the value and significance of that logbook and perhaps it went missing in the past few decades forever. Hope not. Certainly if I spend a decade in captivity, my memory would loose so much details. Wondering which of Hartmann's claims are supported by official unit documents and which ones are only from personal memoires? Anyways, until it's cleared out, here are the last Yak losses of the soviet 5 VA in Moravia in April-May, 1945:
5 VA, 331 IAD has scrapped ('износ') many planes due to wear and tear between April 26 - May 7,1945: April 26, 1945. Combat for Brno. Covering troops in 58 sorties beside 14 recce. sorties: Yak-1B, S/N: 03168, '03' (513 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945. Yak-9T, S/N: 0815305, '10' (122 IAP) - already in service on January 01, 1945. April 27, 1945. Combat for Brno. Covering own troops and 5 VA IL-2s of 264 ShAD, 4 GvShAD. 3 dogfights without own combat losses. 2 Fw 190s downed: Yak-1B, S/N: 10175 Yak-1B, S/N: 45182, '45' (179 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945. Yak-1B, S/N: 48182, '48' (513 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945. Yak-9T, S/N: 1015333, '33' (513 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945. Yak-9T, S/N: 1515351, '51' (513 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945. April 29, 1945. Covering 5 VA IL-2s of 264 ShAD, 4 GvShAD in the Viskov area in 79 sorties. 1 Me 109 downed in dogfight without combat loss: Yak-1B, S/N: 34176, '34' (179 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945. May 5, 1945. 14 sorties, no special event: Yak-1B, S/N: 27169, '27' (179 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945. May 7, 1945. Covering 5 VA IL-2s of 264 ShAD, 4 GvShAD in 180 sorties. 6 recce. sorties, no combat loss: Yak-1B, S/N: 18177, '18' (179 IAP) - burned during refill/maintenance at night. Already in service on January 14, 1945. 5 VA, 6 GvIAD scrapped on April 28, 1945 two fighters: Yak-1B, S/N: 24175 Yak-9D, S/N: 1615370 Much more interesting plane was a Yak-1B of 31 GvIAP on May 2, 1945 as being one of the last Yak combat losses of the 5 VA: 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, 1st Sq., Yak-1B, S/N: 39174, lost at 13:50 local at 600-700 m. 4 (2x2) Yaks, covering ground forces at Viskov. Flight was under flak fire. Pair-leader, Morozov after the 'flak-dance' lost his wingman Kutsenko, when 2 'Fw 190's attacked them in a quick ambush. Pilot, Gv.Ml.lt. Grigorii Emelyanovich Kutsenko went missing. Believed that he was lost during crashlanding after being hit by flak. (or a fighter, which could be a Bf 109 pair as well!!!) Too bad, these are just theories, no evidences on any side for this. And another one: 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, 1st Sq., Yak-9D, S/N: 2015367, lost on April 23, 1945 between 11:20-12:30 local, during crashlanding at Nesedlovice(?) while covering ground troops. Hit by flak, engine stopped, crashlanded. Plane broken, pilot, Gv.Ml.Lt. Petr Arsentevich Folomeenkov was injured. Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Craig
I would like to see evidence that the log books were looted/taken by Americans. It looks to me more like an excuse to avoid discussion on actual deeds. I cannot imagine that none has surfaced out of a number claimed to be stolen. |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Franek, very interesting thoughts... I have not even thought of that.
Some info for March 7, 1945. Hartmann claimed 2 Yak-9s this day as his 242nd and 243rd claims. I do not have further details. I have two Yak-9D losses for this day in Southern-Poland. I am wondering if these losses were in Hartmann's op. area, or they were too far from it and therefore they were lost to somebody else? 4 Ukr. Front, 8 VA, 100 OKRAP, Yak-9D, S/N: 1515363, engine: М-105 пф №4-3191 from Novosibirsk, factory No.153, lost at Ochaby (Drogomyśl-S, 3 km), in Southern-Poland, near the Czech border. Took off at 15:00, local. Pilot, Gv.Ml.Lt. Vasilii Ivanovich Bizyaev (1922-1945) was MIA. His assigned PL-3M parachute number was: ПЛ-3М-109230. Single IL-2(KR?) of 100 OKRAP, escorted by 2 Yak-9D of the same unit was flying recce. mission in the Прухна-Драгомысль area. Leader: Lt. Vladimir Fedorovich Stakanov, wingman: Vasilii Ivanovich Bizyaev. Flight was attacked by pair of Fw 190s, Bizyaev was shot down. (It could be pair of Bf 109s as well around the Czech border.) No further info. 4 Ukr. Front, 8 VA, 100 OKRAP, Yak-9D, S/N: 3015340, engine: М-105 ПФ №435-440 from Novosibirsk, factory No.153, lost at Drogomyśl-S, 2 km in Southern-Poland, near the Czech border. Took off at 14:20, local. Pilot, St.Lt. Valerii Vasilevich Kremeshkov (1921-1945) was MIA. He was the leader of the other Yak-9D pair, escorting another single IL-2(KR?) photo-recce. plane of the 100 OKRAP. The number of his assigned PL-3M type parachute was: ПЛ-3М № 16721. He was also downed by a pair of 'Fw 190s' (which could be Bf 109s as well). No further info. ЦАМО, фонд 100 ОКРАП, оп. 466940, дело 1, л. 26. ЦАМО, фонд 100 ОКРАП, оп. 354724, дело 4, л. 39-41. ЦАМО, фонд 100 ОКРАП, оп. 354722, дело 5, л.79. (I must emphasize, that I am not familiar with Hartmann's op. areas out of Hungary! These are just guesses, being close to the Czech border.) Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Gabor,
From information I got from Johannes, the 2 claims of the 7th March 1945 are in the unit KTB and he has them listed as in the Breslau/Brieg area. The 2 claims of 6th March are also in the unit KTB and are listed in the R Oppeln-Brieg area - unfortunately not times. Regards, Craig... |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Franek,
Good point. Only seen in the Tolliver/Constable book and some quoted Hartmann interviews. I actually believe the part about the logbook being taken by US GI’s to be true, but I’ve always wondered if it was taken by a typical GI rather than an Officer. American soldiers at that time wouldn’t have known who Hartmann was and in general would be more interested in items of value such as medals and watches etc rather than paperwork. An officer may see more value in it particularly for intelligence but what would be the point at the end of the war – therefore it’s either been dumped/burned or put away in some attic/storage and forgotten about. As to the missing logbook to be a convenient excuse to avoid discussion on actual deeds – I don’t think so. Hartmann’s first logbook with claims up to number 150, was used by Tolliver/Constable in their book. Apparently, he had left it at home at some point before the end of the war, thus didn’t have it with him when he was captured. This is evident in the book, because the first 150 claims had mission numbers (whcih would only been available in the flugbuch) and the detail of these 150 claims have compared very well against the claims in the claims’ films – which was made public at a much later date after the publishing of the book. There are a few differences between the book and the claims files but not many. With this accuracy they had to have had the logbook. So, why would Hartmann make this available but hold back on his other logbook – not likely in my opinion. Regards, Craig.. |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Hi Guys
Personally I think a lot of the Tolliver/constable book is not based on fact. I very well remember the "four Mustangs" story, that certainly never happened. With the KBT papers for 1945, Hartmann is mentioned, but JG52 claims or some season weren't given times, other units, and by memory I think all other units times were given. Other high scoring pilots were mentioned by name, and the claim given a number i.e Hartmann 343. The Hartmann claims that were not mentioned during 1945 in the KBT papers should not be regarded with any hope of being accurate, in fact most could be weeks or a month wrong in there date, and type could also be incorrect. With the Hartmann claim 352 I should think that the pilot himself might remember his last being on the last day of the war, and the Toliver/Constable book states that it came down in a square in the centre of Brünn. I am suspicious of any high scoring pilot that didn't have any unconfirmed. or A.S.M claims, Rall is lacking, but we are not questioning his, Nowotny also lacking. but his are certainly questionable, with Hartmann there were a few early on, then they abruptly stop, I would imagine that earlier on he must have been honest, as with Wilhelm Batz. All those pilots that claimed ten or more a day in the east seem to be questionable, and the guy thought to be the most accurate in the "200" club has a best day of five(Lipfert). There are certain patterns to "over-claiming", but there can always be exceptions to the rules I guess. Hartmann's preferred attack method was from above, the Bf109 had pretty bad visibility at best, and not surprisingly "Il-2 experten" seemed more accurate, I would guess they attacked from below where their aircraft had better visibility. Hartmann had one of the lowest Il-2 percentage amongst his claims, perhaps here is another topic, why should he be given the privilege of being safe away from ground-fire, while others seemed to be taking higher risks at low-altitude hacking down these heavily armoured ground-attack aircraft? Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Over Brünn, interestingly the soviet bombers suffered very heavy losses in April, 1945. Especially April 25, 1945 was intense, when they lost 3 Bostons to Hartmann's I./JG 52 fighters. Surprisingly Hartmann claimed a P-39 this day, which was not present in the Brünn area.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................................... April 19, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP, A-20G-40-DO Boston, S/N: 43-21364, lost to flak over Brünn, crashlanded at Loděnice. Bombardier/navigator bailed out, radioman was MIA, pilot died during landing. Survivor female gunner, Vasilisa Sergeevna Pashenko in fear of torture and rape, commited suicide when the plane was approached by German troops. April 23, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP, A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54174, lost to flak over Brünn, crashed at Holáskách. Entire crew of Lt. Ivan Pavlovich Beloglazenko was KIA. April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP, A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54202, red '2' lost to flak over Brünn, crashed IN Brünn! Entire crew of 1Lt. Dmitrii Sergeevich Bongard was KIA. April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-10-DO Boston, S/N: 42-53953, lost in a dogfight to Bf 109s of I./JG 52 over Brünn, crashed at Heršpice in a hillside forest. Yak-3 escort from 31 GvIAP. Pilot, Capt. Vasilii Kirillovich Jurchenko was KIA. April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-30-DO Boston, S/N: 43-9781, lost in a dogfight to Bf 109s of I./JG 52 over Brünn, crashed at Ruprechtov. Yak-3 escort from 31 GvIAP. Pilot, Lt. Anatolii Alexeevich Vetrov was KIA. Plane arrived only 5 days earlier, on April 20, 1945 in the 5 VA, 453 BAP from 7 VA, 114 GvDBAP, operating in the Norway region in the North. April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54221, lost in a dogfight to Bf 109s of I./JG 52 over Brünn, crashed at Vacenovice, Brünn-SE. Yak-3 escort from 31 GvIAP. Pilot, 1Lt. Mihail Levanovich Kakulia survived the crash. Any such claims in I./JG 52????? No soviet fighter losses in this dogfight. (La-7FN, S/N: 45211033 of 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP was lost to flak and crashed at Babice nad Svitavou. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Alexeii Ivanovich Menshikov was KIA.) Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Craig
I do not recall any of the airmen, Galland, Hartmann, Rudel and others claiming that their log books were confiscated. All claimed that they were robbed or that the logs were stolen. If confiscated, then there should be a reference to such actions anyway, in the Allied records. I do not think anyone cared about such documents, however. Neither man claimed to destroy their logs prior to the capture, either. If robbed, I would really expect even a single log to surface. I am not sure if any did, and certainly not a one belonging to a famous pilot. |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Gabor,
I do have in my notes 2 claims for Boston's for II./JG52 on this date at Nikovice and Jezkovice (both reportedly near Brno) - unfortunately no names and stupid me forgot to put the reference as to where I got this information from. Regards, Craig... |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Thanks Craig, appreciate it...
Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Quote:
I couldn’t agree more but I would also extend this back to late October 1944 I went through the files Russell mentioned and came up with some interesting points from looking at the Daily Reports, which I’ve extracted some of the data focusing on Hartmann’s claims 27.10.44 – 5 claims including 3 over own airfield 5 claims on microfilm – 4xJG52 (incl only 1 to Hartmann (304), 1xI./SG10 Total 5 claims match - all accountered for The 2nd claim for Hartmann on 27.10.44 (Il-2) that is mentioned in Barbas II./JG52 work but not in the claims film – could not have happened on this date. 01.11.44 – 17 claims for 6 lost - Maj Barkhorn 274 Hptm Hartmann 306 Ltn Duttmann 5 claims to 123 Rudel 355-360 Pz Absch 13 claims on microfilm - 12xII./JG 52 (incl Hartmann 306) & 1xSG2 – plus Barkhorn 274 and Dauttmann 5th – Total 15 claims – 2 missing This claim is missing in Barbas II./JG52 history but is in the claims film – film correct claim number 306 Note that neither Barkhorns (274) of Duttmanns 5th are in the claims film! 07.11.44 – missing ?? - 3 claims on microfilm 2xJG52 (incl Hartmann(307)) 1xI./SG10 13.11.44 - 19 claims for 5 lost 12 claims in microfilms - 11xII./JG52 (incl Harmann 308 – 311) & 1xII./SG 2 – 7 missing 14.11.44 - 7 claims for 0 loss 5 on microfilms - 5xII./JG52 (incl Hartmann 312-313) – 2 missing 16.11.44 - 28 claims 6 Badly damaged for 4 lost 14 on microfilm - 11xII./JG52 (incl 2xHartmann 314-315), 1xI./JG 53, 1xSG2 & 1xII./SG10 -additional 3 for Barkhorn – total 17 – 11 missing 17.11.44 – 15 claims 1 lost 9 on microfilm - 8xII./JG52 (incl Hartmann 316), 1xII./SG10 – 6 missing 21.11.44 – missing no claims in microfilm (Johannes has a claim for Hartmann on this date but cannot be verified) 22.11.44 – 6 claims 5 claims on microfilm – 2xII./JG 52 (Hartmann 317 & 318) , 2xII./SG 10, & 1xNAGr14 (not sure if this one is in the AO?) – 1 claim missing – most lists have 4 additional claims to Hartmann on this date but this is highly unlikely – not in microfilms and doesn’t add up – likely wrong date (22.12.44?). 23.11.44 – 6 claims, 2 lost – 6 claims on microfilm – 6xII./JG 52 – all claims accountered for - none to Hartmann – additional in various works for 5 Hartmann claims & 2 Barkhorn claims could not have occurred on this date (maybe 23.12.44?) 24.11.44 – Bad Weather – Johannes list has additional 4 claims for Hartmann on this date (not in Barbas II./JG52 work) –incorrect date (poss 24.12.44?) 05.12.44 – 20 claims 4 lost 11 claims on microfilm – 10xII./JG52 (2 x Hartmann 319? – 320?) & 1xI./SG2 – 9 missing 09.12.44 – 4 claims 0 loss – 4 claims on microfilm – 3x II./JG52 (incl 2 for Hartmann 321?-322?) & 1xIII./SG10 - all accountered for 21.12.44 – Missing ?? Note II./JG52 claims on microfilm ends on 21 Dec 1944 – 3 claims on microfilm 2xII./JG52 and 1xI./JG53 22.12.44 – 19 claims, 10 badly damaged - 2 lost – 5 claims on microfilm – 5x I./JG53 – 4 additional claims II./JG 52 (2x Sturm, 1x Lipfert, 1xEwald) – 10 missing 23.12.44 – 8 claims, 2 badly damaged 6 lost (Hartmann 328) – 3 claims in microfilms –3x III./SG 10 – 2 additional claims II./JG52 (Lipfert & Hartmann 328) - 3 missing Hartmann claim no.328 this date – therefore claims 323,324,325,326 & 327 missing – suspect that the claims in November 21, 22, 23 and 24 should be for December likely 21, 22, 23 (after claims in the microfilm ended for II./JG 52) 24.12.44 – 19 clains 2 without witnesses, 2 badly damaged, - 6 lost (Hartmann 3 to 331) 10 claims –9xI./JG53 & 1x I./SG10 – additional claims 4xII./JG 52, (Lipfert & Hartmann 329 – 331) – 5 missing 25.12.44 – 23 claims, 2 without witness, 2 badly damaged (Hartman 5 332- 336, Barkhorn 4 to 289) 8 clamis in microfilms –6xI./JG53 & 2x I./SG10 – additional claims 11xII./JG52 (2xLipfert, 4xBarkhorn. 5xHartmann (332-336)) – 4 missing The dates in between are mostly bad weather (no activity) and several reports are missing. Though claims were reported on 02.11.44 (5), 26.11.44 (6), 08.12.44 (13), 11.11.44 (14), 12.12.44(1), 20.12.44(11), also 29.12.44 – 0 Absch 0 Verl - no claims in microfilm - Additional 2 claims for Barkhorn on this day appear incorrect (possibly extra 2 on for 25.12.44) Also, I suspect some of the missing claims mentioned may be for Hungarian claims which I do not have – maybe Gabor can supply dates, For Hartmanns claims in 1945 337 - 04.02.45 – in wingman Sommavilla account (Check Flugbuch) 338 & 339 – suggested date 20.02.45 – has not been confirmed by first hand information 340 & 341 – 06.03.45 in KTB 342 & 343 – 07.03.45 in KTB 344 – suggested date 09.03.45 345 – suggested date 11.03.45 346 – suggested date unkown 03.45 347 – suggested date 16.03.45 348 - suggested date 10.04.45 349 – 11.04.45 in KTB 350 – 17.04.45 in KTB 351 – suggested date 25.04.45 352 – 08.05.45 Tolliver/Constable (Hartmann) account I reluctantly added the last but still I’m not convinced. My argument all along is how sure are we of the base data when comparing claims. Regards, Craig.. |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Franek,
You may be right for some Logbooks, for Hartmann it's either destroyed, the Americans got it or the Russians got it - There is no way I can see him having it after 10 years in prison. Also, I wasn't really talking about confiscation, souvenir hunting appeared to be fair game except for items that could be used for intelligence which is usually handed over to an officer - the officer goes this looks interesting - the wars over - I might just keep this. Most infantry soldiers I know would go - this will make good toilet paper! Unfortunately time catches up and the older generation move on. Their children find these things in the attic, don't see any value and dump into the bin - some may pass to museums etc or sell at a pawn shop (Rudel's Ehrenpokal apparently turned up in a pawn shop in America several years ago) Anyway, all I'm saying is we live in hope? Regards, Craig.. |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
I think Hans-Ulrich Rudel's (Stab./SG 2) 355-360 Pz Absch on November 1, 1944 can be confirmed - at least partially. Records say, that 2 Ukr. Front, 2 Guards Mech. Corps, 37 Guards-Tank Brigade lost 6 burned (incl. Gv.Ml.Lt. Afanasii Ivanovich Terenin's), and 1 KOd T-34/85 tanks at Lajosmizse-E, around Bartal farm at Budapest-SE. 4 GvMK, 352 GvTSAP lost Ford-6 Willys truck (No.'52').
In a few days, the following T-34/85s were repaired in 37 GvTBr, - probably including that KOd tank on November 1st: C 105 C 113 C 114 C 129 C 132 C 134 Other repairs in 2 GvMK: 24 Guards-Tank Regiment: T-34/85, chassis No.: 4060938 251 Guards Self-prop. Art. Reg.: SU-85, chassis No.: 405170 On German side s.Pz.Abt 503 lost Kingtiger (Tiger B) '200' (Obltn. Brodhagen, KIA) on November 1, 1944 in the very same area. Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Hi Guys
Regarding the end of the microfilm entries. You would think that they all end abruptly like JG5's entries, but I did compare them to abschüßeliste and found with some units like JG52 some days are missing in November/December 1944, and using the old Hartmann list some claims for some days, but I doubt if Hartmann's list in actually very accurate for 1945, his pre mikrofilms 1944 list differs quite a bit for a start, therefor I would actually expect his 1945 list to be no more accurate than his 1945 list. constable/Tolliver also make like of Hartmann's seventy Il-2 claims, this is factually very far from the truth, in fact it was rare for Hartmann to claim anything other than Russian fighters. JG5 were ordered to destroy their flugbucher by their Kommandeur, and in general the most likely way a flugbuch would survive is if the pilot was not on combat duty at the end of the war. Kind regards Johannes |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Craig
I do not think Rudel carried his cup on the frontline. I guess it was captured or looted elsewhere, possibly in one of the bases in Germany. I do not think log books would make a good toilet paper for very practical reasons. Anyway, Johannes provided a credible version of logs being destroyed on order. Had they been destroyed on order, lost in a lorry with other paperwork of the unit or whatever, it would sound credible. I can imagine, that the log books were confiscated and then destroyed as of no significant intelligence value, but I would expect that related paperwork should exist. But the claim that logs were stolen, and nothing surfaced over the years does not seem likely to me. I can imagine some were lost over the years, but not all of them. |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
1 Attachment(s)
Hi Folks,
Some info on the dogfights of the very busy day of November 17, 1944 in order to clarify claims and victories. Verified soviet losses in dogfights: 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M, S/N: 2715306, white ‘06’. Pilot, Lt. Venyamin Mihailovich Boltishev was KIA. At 8:50 local at 400 m, 6 Yaks, led by Gugnin were returning from a mission when they met 2 ‘Fw 190’s, performing frontal attack. Boltishev pulled up, rolled over and after a few spins crashed into the ground. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M, S/N: 2615394, white ‘94’, lost in the Szolnok area. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Victor Nikolajevich Gaponov was MIA. (See pic.) Between 12:50-14:00 local, 6 Yak-1s and Yak-9s (Yak-1Bs: Drozzhikov ‘22’, Erko ‘8’, Kostenko ‘45’, Pugin ‘5’, Yak-9s: Stadnih ‘90’, Gaponov ‘94’) were escorting 6 IL-2s of the 90 GvShAP to Gyöngyös. On the way home, at 700 m, the 2 Yak-9s stayed with the IL-2s, the 4 Yak-1Bs formed an attack group. Near Szolnok, Gaponov fell behind his formation and went missing. Cause was unknown, visibility was good, 3-5 km. Plane came into the group on August 18, 1944. Recent attempt to find the pilot and his plane at his family’s request was unfortunately unsuccessful. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-1B, S/N: 02162, lost at Hort. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Sergei Grigorievich Purgin was MIA. At 12:50 local, 8 Yaks, led by Babiy were escorting 8 IL-2 of the 451 ShAP to the Gyöngyös area. At Hatvan-NE, at 800 m, combat with 8 Bf 109. Ragulin downed a Bf 109, which fell at Gyöngyös-SW, 4 km. Purgin was shot down after being chased by Hptm. Helmut Lipfert at Hort as a 'Yak-7'. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, 2nd Sq., Yak-1B, S/N: 37191, white '<37', lost at 15:00 local at Kóka-E, 3-4 km. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Vladimir Petrovich Isupov (from 19 ZAP) bailed out and returned on the 19th. 8+4 Yaks vs. 4 Fw 190, 2 Bf 109. 1 Bf 109 downed by Stepanov. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, Yak-1B, S/N: 17193, lost in the Dány-Tura area. Pilot, Gv.Ml.Lt. Alexandr Vasilevich Noskov was MIA. At 9:40-10:50 local, 6 Yaks, led by Hlyustov from Kecskemét airfield were covering ground troops in the Pusztamonostor-Dány-Kóka area at 3500-4000 m. Noskov with a sudden turn left Hlyustov and disappeared. Believed to be shot down by enemy fighters. During the day several fighter attacks on 4 GvShAD IL-2, and their escorting Yak formations without losses, some of these might be overclaimed: Mission between 07:50-09:10 local, at 600 m, 8 IL-2s of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, led by Capt. Nikolaev were attacked by 4 Fw 190s without any losses in the Hort area. Fighter escort was 6 Yaks of the 122 IAP. Mission between 07:58-09:18 local, 8 IL-2s of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP, led by Gv.Capt. Yakurnov were attacked by 6 Fw 190s without any losses. One Fw 190 was shot down over Hort. Fighter escort was 6 Yaks of the 122 IAP. Mission between 10:20-11:40 local, at 1200 m in the Csány area, 6 IL-2s of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, led by Gv.Maj. Kuzin were attacked by 8 Fw 190s. One Fw 190 was shot down over Hort. IL-2 of Kurilov was shot down. Fighter escort was 6 Yaks of the 122 IAP: The 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP lost 2 IL-2s this day (S/N: 10392, 1872699) At 11:05 local, IL-2m3 was shot down by fighters at Jászárokszállás-N, 3 km. Pilot, Ivan Prokofevich Kurilov was fatally wounded, died in 2 hrs after landing. Gunner, Ananev returned to his unit on November 20, 1944, plane burned. The other plane, with the wounded Ivlev-Petrunin crew was downed at Jászladány-SW, 2 km at the same time. They also returned to their unit. At 12:05 local at 1200 m, 6 IL-2s of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, led by Gv.Capt. Lyadskii were attacked by 2 Fw 190s without any losses. Fighter escort was 5 Yaks of the 122 IAP. At 14:20-15:30 local, 6 IL-2s of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, led by Capt. Nikolaev, attacking trucks in the Lőrinci area were attacked by 4 Fw 190s without any losses. Fighter escort was 4 Yaks of the 513 IAP. Even IL-2m3 of Gv.Capt. Georgii Timofeevich Beregovoy (HSU, later famous soviet cosmonaut, commander of Soyuz-3 in 1968) was damaged, but NOT lost in the Hatvan area. 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 10956, lost at Gyöngyös-W, 8 km. At 13:45 local, 6+5 IL-2s, escorted by 4 La-5s of 192 IAP in the Gyöngyös-NW area were attacked by 2 Bf 109 and 2 Fw 190. Plane shot down at 80 m. Crew of Gv.Ml.Lt. Genadii Semenovich Turikov and Ivan Ivanovich Ostapenko was KIA. 17 VA, 262 NBAD, 97 GvNBAP, Po-2 biplane, S/N: 7352, lost at Felsőszentiván-SE - Tataháza. Pilot, reg.commander Gv.Lt. Col. Anatolii Vasilevich Styazhkov and Gv.Capt. Vladimir Nikiforovich Strik, reg. navigator was unhurt. Plane crashlanded and burned. Downed by Oblt. Walter Pohl (1./SG 10) Barkhorn's La-5 claim had to be an overclaim, as there was no such loss on soviet side. He might have damaged a La-5 from 5 VA, 279 IAD, which had a terrible mistake that day: in 'friendly fire' they downed several Rumanian Ju 87D Stukas in the Tószeg-Szolnok area, including: Rumanian AF, 8 Gropul Asalt., 74 Sq., Ju 87D-5, W.Nr.: 141379, lost between Tószeg-Jászkarajenő. Crew of pilot adj. av. Victor Zizda and gunner, Constantin Pietraru was KIA. (The Boston losses and Hartmann’s Boston overclaim was previously discussed.) Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Gabor
I think there is a possibility that Barkhorn mis-identified his victim. By the Grid Reference, I get is claim location at about 2km South of Kóka – which is on the edge of the AO of where Gv.Ml.Lt. Alexandr Vasilevich Noskov went missing (Pusztamonostor-Dány-Kóka). The time of 10.23 also fits in with the local timeframe of 09.40 – 10.50. Aircraft identification was awful on both sides – the only reliable thing is that it’s a single engine aircraft – Though, from memory I did see once where a two-engined Manchester was misidentified for a four-engined Lancaster – or was it the other way around? Cannot exactly remember. Also, I note that 5 of the 9 known claims match reasonably well (Lipfert x 3, Barkhorn, & Pohl) – with Barkhorn’s other claim mentioned above, that leaves Hartmann and 2 x Ewald claims – no sense talking about Hartmann’s claim – no new information to change that situation. As for Ewald’s 1st claim for a Yak-9 at 08.36 this could possibly be another mis-identification but by the Russians (2xFw190’s? could be 2x Me109’s) – the time (is within reason) and type match but no location – from the grid reference it appears Ewalds claim was at ~3km N of Jászágó. There is no location mentioned for the loss of the Yak-9. Does the loss information mention a location? For Ewald’s second claim – Il-2m.H at 11.06, - same time as Lipfert’s claims but further to the north (not an exact match to the losses) thus I can see why these were credited to Lipfert – could this possibly be the damaged Il-2m.H of Gv.Capt. Georgii Timofeevich Beregovoy – no detail of this (Time/location) is given to match against? Finally, I’m still wandering about the 15 claims mentioned in the daily report – with 9 claims in the claims microfilm, what of the remaining six? Some possibilities are: - Claims not confirmed thus not in the claims microfilm? - Claims by Ground Assault pilots – There seems to be a lot of FW190 activity that suggest SG units – which there is little in the claim’s microfilms for SG units. - Claims by Hungarian pilots (like the claim for the Boston in the Hartmann issue)? Do you have the Hungarian claims for this day? Overall, not a bad matchup considering. Regards, Craig… |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Craig,
I agree 100% on the misidentification of planes. When I read: 'pair of Fw 190s...' I always think they were in fact Bf 109s for 99%, etc... Fw 190s usually flew in larger groups against ground targets, did not really attack fighters, etc... And not many claims are known by them either. Known Hungarian claims on November 17, 1944 in joint operation with JG 52: - A-20 Boston - Capt. Pottyondy László (~Bf 109G-6, 'blue 14', Commander of 102/2. Sq., in pair with Hartmann from Budaörs airfield) - Confirmed - 2 IL-2m3 - 1Lt. Flóznik Ervin (Bf 109G, 102/1.Sq.) - (not investigated yet, probably against 4 GvShAD) - almost certainly overclaims involved - 2 IL-2m3 - Capt. Hedrey Szilárd (Bf 109G, 102/1.Sq.) - (not investigated yet, probably against 4 GvShAD) - almost certainly overclaims involved - A-20 Boston - Cpl./Maj. Buday Lajos (Bf 109, 'borrowed' from 101/2. Sq.) - Overclaim - 37 mm flak battery at Adács - Horváth Sándor szkv. (~Fw 190F-8, 'W-+521', Hung. 102/1. ground attack Sq.) - no more info to check Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
1 Attachment(s)
Some side-notes to November 17, 1944:
Since Hungarian fighters did not claim soviet fighters this day, all soviet fighters (Yaks) lost in a dogfight should be sought out among the German claims! Pilot-cosmonaut, Gv.Capt. Beregovoy's plane was not lost, only damaged in the Hatvan area, therefore it is not listed in any official loss-report of the 90 GvShAP. However, one pic shows the damage of his left wing. I have read about it in some memoires in which -of course- no further details were mentioned, like exact time and/or place. See his fancy, and famous IL-2m2, No.'22' below. The 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP fighter-escort of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP IL-2m3s between 12:50-14:00 local: Yak-1B, S/N: ?????, '5' - Ml.Lt. Mihail Yakovlevich Pugin -Number questionable* Yak-1B, S/N: 38179, '8' - Ml.Lt. Mihail Semenovich Erko Yak-1B, S/N: 22172, '22' - Maj. Anatolii Dmitrievich Drozzhikov Yak-1B, S/N: 45170, '45' - Ml.Lt. Ilya Egorovich Kostenko Yak-9M, S/N: 2615390, '90' - Ml.Lt. Vasilii Evstafevich Stadnik Yak-9M, S/N: 2615394, '94' - Ml.Lt. Victor Nikolaevich Gaponov (MIA/KIA) * Yak-9M, S/N: 2715305, '05' was lost on November 16, 1944. How did they replace No.'5' in 1 day? True, Yak-1B, S/N: 06179, '6' was lost on November 16, 1944 and Yak-9M, S/N: 2715306, '06' was lost on November 17, 1944. Perhaps 5 and 05 were different. Anyways, no plane with '5' is listed in 122 IAP plane-inventory on January 01, 1945 (with single digit only: Yak-1B: 50160, '3', Yak-9T: 0915396, '3', Yak-1B: 04168, '04', Yak-1B: 38179, '8'), so perhaps it was written off as wear and tear still in late-November, December, 1944. Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Hi Craig, yes, 3 out of Lipfert's 3 claims on November 17, 1944 seem to be a legitimate victory. (Two IL-2s from 90 GvShAP and 1 Yak-1B from 179 IAP.) This is another day with 100% accuracy for him! Lipfert always amazes me...
Cheers, Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
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More details on the November 17, 1944 dogfights:
This day 5 VA, 7 GvShAD (130, 131, 132 GvShAP) IL-2s fought in the Maklár, Kál, Abasár, Valkó, Gyöngyös-S, Hatvan area. IL-2m3 (S/N: 12315) of 5 VA, 131 GvShAP, piloted by Gv.Capt. Ivan Vladimirovich Derkachev, Balakin took off for an engine-test flight (probably immediately after an engine-replacement) and failed to return to their base. Perhaps they were surprised by German, or Hungarian Bf 109 fighters??? (Crew later returned.) IL-2s of the 5 VA, 12 GvShAD (187, 188, 190 GvShAP) fought in the Gyöngyös, Hatvan, Tura, Isaszeg, Aszód, Öcsöd area. 190 GvShAP IL-2s attacked the Gyöngyös area. Pairs of recce. IL-2s flew in the Hatvan, Tura, Isaszeg, Gödöllő, Aszód, Bag area. At Gödöllő-E, 4 km, they were strafing a (military?) train. They claimed 3 Fw 190s, which means: beside the 4 GvShAD IL-2s they were also attacked by German fighters, most likely Bf 109s. Escort was provided by La-5s. La-5s therefore, of 5 VA, 14 GvIAD were extremely busy this day. At 10:00, at 2000 m, four 177 GvIAP La-5s, led by Gv.St.Lt. Belousov (HSU) at 2500 m attacked 6 Fw 190s at Gyöngyös-S, 5 km. Belousov downed one of them. At 10:03, at 3000 m, another 4 Fw 190s ‘joined the club’. Gv.Lt. Fridman opened fire from 100 m, and downed one of them at Gyöngyös-SE, 5 km. At 10:15, at 1500 m, near Csány another combat, this time with 6 Bf 109s. Gv.Lt. Miheev claimed a Bf 109 shot down at Csány-N, 2 km. Gv.Lt. Bondar fired another Bf 109 from 200 to 70 m, and downed him at Hatvan-E, 4 km. 2 Fw 190 and 2 Bf 109 claims without a single La-5 loss! 2nd battle of the 177 GvIAP La-5s took place over the frontline between 11:50-12:50 local. 7 La-5s and a single La-7 of 177 GvIAP, led by Gv.Maj. Morozov were patrolling, when at 12:20 local in the Karácsond area they met 10 Bf 109s. The Messers immediately formed 2 groups of 4 and 6. The Lavochkins claimed 4 Bf 109s: Morozov, Dogadailo, Zemit and Danishin - each downed 1. La-5s of 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP were patrolling over their own airfield with 4 La-5s and covering their ground troops in the Gyöngyös, Karácsond, Vámosgyörk, area with 10 fighters. BUT HERE: 1 La-5FN, S/N: 39212821, piloted by Lt. Myakinin went missing!!!!! - Perhaps Barkhorn’s La-5 claim was correct??? (Unfortunately no info on the exact local time and the fate of the pilot.) Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Hi Gabor,
For clarification:Lt. Myakinin was from 177 GvIAP or 178 GvIAP? |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
178 ;-)
|
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Gabor
Excellent – 15 claims are mentioned in the Daily Report, 9 German + 6 Hungarian = 15 claims total With 8 losses matching or likely matching to claims, plus the unidentified clamant for the third Il-2 loss (5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP at 13.45) which is possibly one of the Hungarian claims (Ewald time doesn’t match) – that makes 9 / 15 – within the 50 % – 70 % range that I would expect to see for a typical actual losses against claims comparison– with the remainder mostly being crash-landed safe or those that returned damaged. I haven’t included the missing Yak-9 of Lt. Gapanov or the La-5 of Lt. Myakinin in this, due to lack of evidence to confirm that they were shot down by fighters, plus all fighter claims are accounted or probably accounted for (mis-identification). It’s possible that these two may have been mis-identified as Il-2;s but unlikely (though Hurricanes and Defiants were mis-identified in 1940) – I would think most pilots would realise if there was a gunner firing back at you. But until we get further evidence this is purely speculation. Though it’s highly likely that Lipfert claimed the 2 Il-2’s (say 90% likely), there is still the 4 Hungarian Il-2 claims that we don’t know the time/location of their claims yet, to compare. Duplication of claims is often one source of overclaiming. They may be in the same area of Lipfert’s claims, but if the 4 Hungarian claims prove to be in different area/time then I would say for certain that these were Lipfert’s claims. Until then, to me it’s only highly probable not absolute (100%). Now the difficult part – I believe that most claims in general are legitimate and made in good faith. If you dig deep enough you will find that something occurred – it may not be a legitimate victory but usually it’s a legitimate claim – a pilot believes he shot the plane down but it makes its way back to safety - thus overclaiming. The difficulty in matching claims is the mis-identification within claims, duplication of claims, the general lack of records for damaged aircraft and the incorrect reporting of events – i.e. pilot getting back (or others) and reporting being shot down by flak but evidence suggest that were actually shot down by another aircraft (and vice versa) – Hartmann after his 90th! With the Il-2 claims, you have 7 claims for 3 losses – but since 2 are accounted for, we are looking at 5 claims for 1 loss. This aircraft had a reputation as a tough one to finish off – so it wouldn’t surprise me if they were damaged aircraft. As you suggested, damaged aircraft details are generally not in loss reports - something common with all nations, thus requiring a lot more work. Some derail of damaged aircraft can be found in the Unit diaries – are they available and have you had time to check these out yet? Regards, Craig… |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Hi Craig, the situation is a bit complicated. Hungarian fighters flew mission over the southern slopes of the Mátra mountain in the Gyöngyös area. Unfortunately no exact time is known for their IL-2 claims. But in that region mainly the 4 and 12 GvShAD IL-2s operated. (90, 91, 92 & 187, 188, 190 GvShAP)
In the 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, the 187 GvShAP flew only 1 mission this day between 12:50-14:30 local in the Gyöngyös-W area with 12 IL-2m3: ('65'-Lozorenko, '68', '76', '66', '69', '74', '75', '70', '98', '92', '82', '91'), led by Gv.Capt. Lozorenko. They attacked truck columns on the roads, but did not report dogfight, or plane losses! Fighter escort was 4 La-5s of 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP. No fighter losses. (279 IAD La-5s protected IL-2 formations and recce. aircrafts of 7 and 12 GvShADs this day.) 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP, escorted by La-5s of 192 IAP -as previously discussed-, lost an IL-2, S/N: 10956 at Gyöngyös-W. Also found, that division level doc. of 14 GvIAD mentions a 'new' La-5 loss with pilot: Gv.Ml.Lt. Yusupov on November 17, 1944. But: I have NOT found any such loss in the regiment combat diaries of 14 GvIAD, or in their mechanical reports, only Myakinin's 39212821 in 178 GvIAP! (No 'Yusupov' is known in the 14 GvIAD regiments either.) Perhaps it's just a typo. Too bad, some planes, like Gaponov's Yak-9M went missing without any specific location. Only region is known. It is the hardest to match such losses. Anyways, we try, what we can... Cheers, Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
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On November 16, 1944 Hartmann claimed 2 Yak-9s, while other Bf 109 pairs attacked IL-2 formations, hunting for German tanks. Known IL-2 dogfights:
Between 13:05-14:37 local, 9 IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 187 GvShAP attacked the Aszód-Hatvan area: IL-2m3, No.'65' - Gv.Capt. Boris Ivanovich Lozorenko IL-2m3, No.'68' - Gv.Ml.Lt. Ivan Ilich Shmonov IL-2m3, No.'76', S/N: 10986 - Gv.Lt. Mihail Vasilevich Hramushin IL-2m3, No.'79' - Gv.Ml.Lt. Alexeii Vasilevich Chukavin IL-2m3, No.'69', S/N: 18817109 - Gv.Ml.Lt. Vladimir Yakovlevich Volkov IL-2m3, No.'74', S/N: 11010 - Gv.Ml.Lt. Gennadii Vasilevich Miheichev IL-2m3, No.'75', S/N: 1879474 - Gv.Capt. Ivan Sergeevich Obedkov - (See photo!) IL-2m3, No.'98' - Gv.Lt. Kuddus Kanifovich Latipov IL-2m3, No.'89' - Gv.Ml.Lt. Nikolai Vasilevich Selyutin Their formation was attacked by 2 Bf 109s without any AC losses. Here some IL-2s could be damaged and therefore reported/(over-)claimed. 8 IL-2m3s of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 190 GvShAP were also attacked by 2 Bf 109 without any losses in the Cegléd area. Gunner, gv.st.sgt. Boris Georgievich Krayukhin repelled 2 fighter attacks on his own plane, which might have been damaged and therefore (over-)claimed, - but they successfully returned to their base. The only 12 GvShAD loss this day, Anatolii Sergeevich Patrin, gunner of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP was killed on the ground in a German attack on his airbase, not in a dogfight! Perhaps this info can help to investigate/clarify other German/Hungarian IL-2 claims for the day. Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Hi Gabor!
and what about the airplanes that have been damaged in aerial combat. With the aircraft that were later repaired. As far as I know, there were many who flew heavy, light and later on again after a few days. greeting BenFolk |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
More details to the November 17, 1944 IL-2 claims in the Gyöngyös, Hungary area. As previously discussed, Hungarian Bf 109G pilots have claimed 4 IL-2s near Gyöngyös this day:
2 IL-2s were claimed by 1Lt. Flóznik Ervin (Bf 109G, 102/1.Sq.), 2 IL-2s were claimed by Capt. Hedrey Szilárd (Bf 109G, 102/1.Sq.). Checking the 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP records, this regiment has lost 4+2 IL-2s this day: Between 07:50-09:10, local, eight 90 GvShAP IL-2s, escorted by six 122 IAP Yak-9s attacked the Gyöngyös-Hort area and over Hort, they were attacked by 4 'Fw 190's. Here 1 IL-2 was lost: Gv.Ml.Lt. Mihail Emelyanovich Sudorgin (OK) Between 10:20-11:40, local, six 90 GvShAP IL-2s, escorted by six 122 IAP Yak-9s attacked the Hort area again. Over Csány, 8 'Fw 190's attacked them. (Soviets regularly reported the Hungarian Bf 109s as 'Fw 190's, perhaps due to their different camuflage.) During the very intense dogfight, 3 IL-2s were lost here: Gv.Capt. Ivan Prokofevich Kurilov (KIA) Gv.Ml.Lt. Vasilii Andreevich Ivlev (WIA) Gv.Ml.Lt. Nikolai Vasilevich Halin (WIA) The 90 GvShAP mechanical records have written off 4 IL-2s by November 17, 1944: 10392 - complete loss 10618 11360 - destroyed 1872699 - complete loss ...and by November 18, 1944 two more: 303933 - destroyed 1875681 - scrapped for spare parts Since on November 18, 1944 the 90 GvShAP had no combat mission and AC losses, these were probably just seriously damaged planes on November 17, 1944 and the soviet mechanics just simply gave up on them. All of this suggests that the 4 Hungarian IL-2 claims on November 17, 1944 were probably all legitimate aerial victories, not overclaims. Gabor |
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More details to the November 17, 1944
On the day of the aerial battle between 10.20-11.40 a.m., another IL-2 was slightly damaged and the gunner (Boris Ivanovitch Ivanov) was wounded on the legs. Bomber 218 BAD, 453 BAP A-20G (S/N: 42-53956), Lost not directly via Ocsa. Lt. Danielyan flew over the front line and seated a burning plane, after which enemy fighters fired to the plant and four attacks after planting. The plane was destroyed. On October 27, 1944 207 okrap lost 1 IL-2 and 2 Jak-9, which did not return from enemy flight. The losses occurred described Lipfert exactly in his book. O 12.36 (10.36 German time) yet another IL-2 from 207 okrap was attacked by 2 German Me109 which carried out 2 attacks. There is nothing in the chronicle of the 5 VA. The Soviets mostly only did not return from enemy flight, and when it came to a dogfight "everyone returned to the airfield". Though one or two pulled a plume of smoke behind them. As long as no one has seen anything from the other place. Aircraft can be repaired. |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
MODERATOR’ NOTE: In tidying this thread, I merged one post too many. What follows should have appeared as a separate post by H Gabor. Apologies to all concerned.
Folks, just a minor correction to the initial list of this thread. Nikolai Matveevich Knut on October 27, 1944 certainly belonged to 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, NOT to '150 IAP'! Attached pic shows two downed and captured soviet pilots, including him and Kotlyar: |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Please "Supermoderator" Nick have a look at the title of this long thread:
Hartmann - claims vs. victories Don't you think a large part of the posts are clearly off-topic, being devoted to Hungarian victories and losses? Where is Hartmann here? I don't mind at all, quite on the contrary. All posts are interesting. Such things happen very often at TOCH, the discussion shifting from one subject to another one or to several other ones. So what? It's interesting in any case. You warned ME - me only - for a possible closing of the thread on French fighter victories (now at bottom of page 6, soon on page 7) because some words were "off-topic" (according to YOU). Then you closed that thread for good because of a short discussion of communist sabotage in French aircraft factories, which in no way was off-topic: sabotage had a direct impact on fighter production, hence on French fighter victories, the very subject of the thread. So I feel I am a victim of arbitrary censorship on your part. This is very ugly. Please abstain from such unfair treatment in the future, thanks in advance. Or have you a particular axe to grind here? Hmmm? Tell us please. |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
The October 27, 1944 events are very interesting. This day between 10:15 - 15:00 (local) 2 Yak-9D and 2 IL-2KR of 5 VA, 207 OKRAP flew recce. missions in the Csap, Nyírbátor, Vásárosnamény, Mátészalka, etc. area. In the same region, near Büdszentmihály ('Büd-St. Michael', new name: Tiszavasvári) Hptm. Helmut Lipfert claimed an IL-2 at 12:17 and a Yak-7 at 12:21, four minutes apart. This day the 5 VA, 207 OKRAP has lost 2 (Omsk, Factory No.166-built) Yak-9D and a (Factory No.1-built) IL-2KR as follows:
IL-2KR crew: Ml.Lt. Mihail Petrovich Lanskii pilot St.Lt. Lev Dmitrievich Sinev observer Yak-9D: Ml.Lt. Alexandr Mihailovich Rozhkov Yak-9D: St.Lt. Konstantin Vasilevich Sapevo Their planes were not showing up in the given day's AC losses. Confusion was caused by the delay of the mechanical records. In 207 OKRAP records an IL-2KR was written-off only by November 3, 1944 and 2 additional Yak-9Ds in the November 1-15, 1944 time period as combat losses: IL-2KR, S/N: 10948, engine: 256676 (prev. engine in April, 1944 was No.259350) Yak-9D, S/N: 19166066, engine: 415-1037 Yak-9D, S/N: 19166078, engine: 415-90 In addition to these, at 10:36 local, the other 207 OKRAP IL-2KR, piloted by Maj. Nikolai Petrovich Zubko was attacked by 2 Bf 109s unsuccessfully. Since between October 27, 1944 and the given other dates no more 207 OKRAP AC loss is known, therefore the listed planes were most likely lost on October 27, 1944, not later. The IL-2 connection is clear, as having a single option, but the 2 Yak-9s and their pilots at this point cannot be matched for 100%. Erich Hartmann’s 305th (Yak-9) claim at 10:16 over Nagykálló-E (18 265) at 2500 m is still questionable. The soviet recce. planes reported many vehicles on the roads before they were lost (so they had already been in the air for awhile) and it is highly unlikely that someone could shoot down a plane at 2500 m over the target area, only 1 minute after their mission has started. (10:15 vs. 10:16). More investigation is needed. By October 1, 1944 the 5 VA, 207 OKRAP had: 7 Yak-9D (six from Omsk, Factory No.166 and one from Novosibirsk, Factory No.153, but this one (S/N: 2115312) was already lost before October 25, 1944.) 16 IL-2KR (15 from Factory No.1 and a single one from Factory No.30, S/N: 302360, being repaired in Kirovograd by December 26, 1944.) 5 Po-2 biplanes Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Quote:
Your bid for attention aside, this thread has been an intelligent comparison of the available evidence for various claims and losses and I see no reason to interrupt it. |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
In early February, 1945 for a brief period of time Erich Hartmann had served in Stab I./JG 53 in Veszprém, Hungary. On February 4, 1945 he claimed a Yak-9. Unfortunately no details are known about this claim, so it is almost impossible to match it to soviet losses, not to mention, that the RHAF was also very active this day in the same region. What we know is that this day 2 Yak-9s were lost to Bf 109s in the Budapest area and many more Lavochkins in various locations W-, SW- of the city:
337: – POTENTIAL VICTORY? 4.2.1945 - Yak-9 Stab I./JG 53 2 (Novosibirsk-built) Yak losses this day: 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2015350), Gv.Ml.Lt. Petr Yakovlevich Vidanov was KIA at Budapest. At 12:50 local, 6 Yaks, covering own troops in combat with 8 Bf 109s. Vidanov went missing. 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, Yak-9 (S/N: 1515321), Gv.Lt. Ivan Andreevich Yangaev. At 12:50 local, 6 Yaks, covering own troops over 5 km West of Budapest at 4500 m. Dogfight with 8 Bf 109s. Yak-9 was hit over Csepel, crashlanded at Rákoscsaba. Plane burned, pilot was wounded in legs and head, taken to Hospital of Isaszeg. Lavochkin losses of the day - in case if he misidentified his opponent. (I, however, doubt this, as he always attacked from a very close range): 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 179 GvIAP, La-7FN (S/N: 45210566) Gv.Ml.Lt. Ivan Nikitovich Lebedev was dive bombing and strafing German strongholds in Buda. La-7 was hit by flak and crashed in the target area, pilot was KIA. (Not for Hartmann!) 17 VA, 194 IAD has written-off 2 La-5F this day as (probably losses of prev. days): 39215033, 39215251. 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, La-5F (S/N: 39215046) 6 La-5 at 16:00 local, at 2000 m at 2 km West of Sárkeresztes. Shot at by flak and Bf 109s. Vladimir Zaharovich Voronov was hit and crashed. Zavlyalov shot down his attacker, so this Bf 109 was also destroyed. Voronov went MIA. 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39212754), at 16:00 local, Ml.Lt. Boris Petrovich Lazarev was MIA after dogfight with Bf 109s at 2000 m at 2 km West of Sárkeresztes. 6 La-5 received flak fire as well. It was heard in the radio as Lazarev passed command to Vasilev, because his engine was overheating and then went MIA. 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, 1st Sq. La-5FN (S/N: 39212113) Plane was lost in take-off accident at Kiskunlacháza. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Konstantin Ivanovich Kurenkov was KIFA. 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP La-5FN (S/N: 39213685) Gv.Lt. Igor Emelyanovich Sereda was hit by flak during a 2-plane recce. sortie in the Székesfehérvár area. Crashlanded at Rákospalota. 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP La-5FN (S/N: 39212054) at 13:25 local, at 1500 m, 4 La-5, escorting a pair of IL-2s in the Enying-Lake Velencei area. Combat with 14 Fw 190 and Bf 109, which were attacking the ILs from the sun. While defending the IL-2s, Ml.Lt. Mihail Pavlovich Dimakov’s La-5 was hit, crashlanded at his base. Gabor |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Hi Folks,
Here is the reviewed and updated victory analysis for Erich Hartmann for the fall of 1944 and the very end of WWII in Europe. Just in case if he misidentified his opponent(s), I listed the applicable single engine soviet fighter losses, not just the specific model that he claimed. Out of his following 31 claims, a max. of 9 planes were potential victories, the rest were just overclaims at best, - made up fiction at worst. This means that IF(!) all of these 9 potential victories were legitimate victories (that from the available information I cannot verify), where the attacked plane was actually destroyed, his accuracy was 29%. Applying this average to his 352 claims, he had about 102 legitimate aerial victories during WWII, - which is still a remarkable achievement. Finally, I can also imagine, that some of his claims were in fact friendly-fire (e.g. Hungarian, Rumanian, or even German) Bf 109, or Fw 190 fighters misidentified as Yaks, or Lavochkins. This could easily be the serious consequence of his famous ‘hit-and-run’ ambush tactics. This, by the way, at the same time would explain both questions: why his wingmen confirmed his kills and why the soviets did not report such losses there and then… I have never checked this possibility, but it would worth the effort for Luftwaffe experts. Personally I believe that in most cases he really hit his opponents, however, they were just damaged and after the necessary repairs kept fighting the next day. Damaging the enemy fighters, while the IL-2s and bombers kept destroying the German army on the ground, was not a war winning strategy. It was good for personal glory and Luftwaffe propaganda, but did not really help to win the war. Either way, the review and re-evaluation of Erich Hartmann’s legacy is way overdue. 305: -OVERCLAIM 27.10.1944 10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP Yak-1B (S/N: 20150) destroyed on the ground at Debrecen airfield in air raid. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP Yak-9T (S/N: 2515338) destroyed on the ground at Debrecen airfield in air raid. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP Yak-3 (S/N: 3929212, No.’39’) downed by Hptm. Fritz Schröter (Stab.I/SG.10 - Fw 190F) at 13:42 local, 6 Yak-3 vs. 4 Bf 109 and 16 Fw 190 at 2000 m in the Nyíregyháza area. Gv.Ml.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut bailed out, got captured. 5 VA, 207 OKRAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 19166066, or 19166078) Recce. mission started at 10:15 local, Ml.Lt. Alexandr Mihailovich Rozhkov later went missing. Too late sortie to be shot down over the target area at 10:16 local, only 1 min. after take off time. 5 VA, 207 OKRAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 19166078, or 19166066) Recce. mission started at 10:15 local, St.Lt. Konstantin Vasilevich Sapevo later went missing. Too late sortie to be shot down over the target area at 10:16 local, only 1 min. after take off time. 5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39213433, No.’33’) at 13:55 local, at 300 m, pair of recce. La-5s in the Kecskemét area. St.Lt. Sergei Fedorovich Gukov was hit by flak, belly landed at Kecskemét-NW, 8 km near a lake at Méntelek. Captured, later liberated. 306: - VICTORY- 31.10.1944 15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799 – it was La-5F (S/N: 39215187) around 15:25 local, in the very same area! NO YAK loss! (This day the 5 VA lost: 1 A-20G-10-DO (S/N: 42-54006, from 452 BAP), 11 IL-2 and 2 La-5) 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5F (S/N: 39215187, No.’87’) Lost in the Kecskemét-Kerekegyháza area, Gv.Capt. Pavel Yakovlevich Morduhovich was MIA. At 15:25 local, pair of Gv.Capt. Morduhovich - Gv.Lt. Abramov was patrolling in the Kerekegyháza-N area. At 2000 m combat with 2 Fw 190 and 2 Bf 109. Morduhovich attacked the Fw 190s, when the Bf 109 pair got in his tail. His wingman, Gv.Lt. Abramov broke away and has not seen or heard his leader in the radio anymore. 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN (S/N: 41210105 – metal wing!) free hunting and recce. mission in the Cegléd-Szolnok-Jászapáti area. Lost near Cegléd, Gv.Lt. Alexei Alexandrovich Kunshin was MIA. At 09:25 La-5s of 177 GvIAP were strafing a truck convoy on the road between Szolnok-Cegléd. After the attack Kunshin was missing. Most likely downed by flak, or brought down by the explosion of one of the attacked trucks. 307?: -OVERCLAIM 1.11.1944 14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP La-5F (S/N: 39215336, No.’36’) downed by Pottyondy László szds. (Capt., Hungarian 102/2. Bf 109G Sq.) at Szolnok. Gv.Ml.Lt. Evgenii Ivanovich Batyunya was wounded. 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 08175) Lost at Lakitelek-NW, Gv.Lt. Alexandr Semenovich Andrianov, bailed out, badly wounded, POW. 8 Yaks, led by Zuev vs. 8 Bf 109 at 4500-6000 m in the Nagykőrös area. Attack on the leading pair. 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, 1st Sq., Yak-9D (S/N: 18166046) – NOT A LOSS!, only damaged in combat, repaired on its airfield!!! 307?: -OVERCLAIM 7.11.1944 13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP Yak-3 (S/N: 3229214, No.’32’) at 12:19 local at 1200 m, 6 Yak vs. 4 Fw 190 in the Lajosmizse area. Gv.Lt. Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov bailed out, badly burned. 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39211227, No.’27’) Lost at 15:00 local at Szarvas-SE from a group of 4 La-5, 2 IL-2 from 800 m. Sq. commander, Capt. Mihail Afanasevich Kazanovskii bailed out, his La-5FN went down in flames. 308: – POTENTIAL VICTORY? 13.11.1944 14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m 309: – POTENTIAL VICTORY? 13.11.1944 14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m 310: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m 311: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2715382), Gv.Lt. Nikolai Mikhailovich Grisaev (unhurt) - take-off accident at Külső-Kiritó airfield. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Yak-1B (S/N:11186), lost at Jászberény, Gv.Ml.Lt Alexandr Titovich Kotlyar POW. Between 13:55-14:50 4+4 Yaks, led by Kalchenko and Kadagidze attacked 4 Fw 190 and 2 Bf 109 at 3000 m, which were attacking the road at Jászberény-S. Kalchenko downed a Bf 109, Kotlyar bailed out and got captured. Heavy fragmentation in both of his hands. After being liberated by the Allies, remained in hospital until June 18, 1945. Returned to the USSR on June 20 1945. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 42178), lost at Abony-N, 20 km, Gv.Ml.Lt Stephanov was unhurt. At 12:55 local, 8 Yaks at 3000 m were attacked by 6 Bf 109 from the sun. Hidraulics damaged, crashlanded on one wheel. AC lost, pilot returned the same day to his unit. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 3529218, No.’35’), lost at Ócsa, Gv.St.Lt. Nikolai Alexeevich Kireev wounded. At 08:41 local, 6 Yak-3 over Ócsa met 13 Bf 109 at 3500 m. As a wingman of his leader, who was attacking a pair of Bf 109s got hit, bailed out, and with injured legs was taken to hospital. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 1815358), lost in Nagykáta area, Gv.St.Lt. Nikolai Sergeevich Egorov, Sq. Comm. returned. At 11:54 local at 1000 m, 6 Yak-3 and 2 Yak-9 met a large group of 8 Fw 190, 8 Ju 87, escorted by 15 Bf 109. Egorov downed a Bf 109 and a Ju 87, but was hit, caught fire by a Fw 190 and bailed out. Landed on enemy territory, hid, then in the darkness returned to his own side. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2715317), lost at Újszász-E, 5 km, Svistkov unhurt. Hit by flak in the Jászberény area, crashlanded burning at Újszász-E, 5 km Pilot returned on the next day. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-9T (S/N: 0215354). Lost near Zsámbok, Ml.Lt. Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev MIA. At 13:50 local 4 Yaks, covering 6 IL-2 in the Jászberény area met 8 Bf 109. Got hit, crashlanded at Zsámbok-SW, 6 km. 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, 3rd Sq., La-5FN (S/N: 41210201 – metal wing!) lost at Újszász in a sharp, turning dogfight with Heinz Ewald near the frontline at low, deadly altitude. Heroic soviet pilot, Gv.Lt. Boris Georgievich Kalinin (1922-1944), who alone accepted the turning duel from his flight of four La-5 with Heinz Ewald, was KIA. Burning crash seen on the swampy shore of the Tisza river. Radial engine (S/N: 8212559) recovered in September, 2007, restored, now on display in our Szolnok Aircraft Museum. 312: 14.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m 313: 14.11.1944 – POTENTIAL VICTORY? 11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP La-5FN (S/N: 39213519, No.’92’) Ml.Lt. Sergei Alexeevich Matveev injured. At 11:20 local 4+2 La-5 escorting 6 IL-2 vs. 2 ‘Fw 190’ and flak in the Valkó - Tarnaörs area. Engine and pilot’s head at 800 m was hit, lost consciousness, then at around 100-50 m he regained consciousness and with final effort took control and crashlanded on soviet controlled territory. Plane written-off. A veeery lucky guy! 314: 16.11.1944 – POTENTIAL VICTORY 8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m 315: 16.11.1944 – POTENTIAL VICTORY 8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2015370). Gv.Ml.Lt. Valerii Arkadevich Koptelov was unhurt. At 12:20 local, at 3000 m 4 Yaks were patrolling in the Jászberény-N area, when 2 of 6 Bf 109s attacked them in a frontal attack from below. After a 180 degree turn they started to chase the 109s. After the attack his engine started to smoke. Kortelov turned to the East towards the Tisza river and at 12 km East of Jászkisér at 800 m his engine caught fire. Pilot bailed out right away and landed safely. Returned on November 18, 1944 without his plane. 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2015315). Gv.Ml.Lt. Alexandr Stephanovich Shuvalov went missing. 10 Yaks, led by Lt.Col. Mikhailyuk were covering the soviet troops in the Jászberény - Pusztamonostor – Jászárokszállás triangle at 4000 m. Over Jászárokszállás the pair of Savchuk-Shuvalov separated from the group and Shuvalov went missing. Radio connection was good, dogfight was not reported. Fate is unknown. Perhaps Erich Hartmann caught him at 08:45? 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2015329). Mutually downed by Debrődy György fhdgy. (Hungarian 101/3. Sq., 26 kill Bf 109G ace) between Jászberény-Jászárokszállás in a ‘suicidal’, frontal attack. Gv.Ml.Lt. Ismail Semenovich Rulev exploded mid-air (KIA), Debrődy’s belly was shot through, with final effort belly landed along the Hatvan-Budapest RR line, rushed to hospital, saved. 1 bullet stayed in his body, removed in the U.S.A. after the war. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 22183). Landing accident at the airfield of Külső-Kiritó-N, 600-700 m at 15:20 local, after escorting the 90 GvShAP IL-2s to Hatvan. Ml.Lt. Mihail Ivanovich Sapa was unhurt. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 06179). Lost at Hatvan-S, Capt. Petr Grigorevich Artemev was KIA. At 12:00 4 Yak and six 92 GvShAP IL-2 in Hatvan area. Battle with 4-5 Fw 190, 4 Bf 109 at Csányi. Artemev was missing. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2715305). Crashlanded at Törökszentmiklós-SE, 6 km, Ml.Lt. Boris Alexandrovich Horkin was injured. While covering 92 GvShAP IL-2s in the Hatvan area at 12:00 local, at 1300 m over Csányi a Fw 190 hit him, he lost altitude, then at 200 m another 6 Fw 190 attacked him, (2 of them collided behind him during the chase and probably crashed), then he crashlanded at Törökszentmiklós with leg injury. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9 (S/N: 2515332). Lost at Jászfényszaru-E, St.Lt. Anatolii Mihailovich Znamenev went missing. 4 Yaks at 12:30 local at 1200 m escorted six 92 GvShAP IL-2 in the Hatvan area when they met 6 Bf 109. Formation loosened up, his leader returned to airfield alone. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9 (S/N: 2515396). Lost at Jászfényszaru-NE, Ml.Lt. Ivan Constantinovich Babanin went missing. 4 Yak-9 at 12:20 local at 1200 m vs. 16 Bf 109 in the Hatvan area. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 12152). Lost at the airfield of Tiszapüspöki. At 13:55 local, 4 Yaks covering 8 IL-2 of 91 GvShAP, returning from the Hatvan mission. Plane broken at landing due to bad weather/turbulance. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-9T (S/N: 1015328). Lost at Hatvan, pilot, Lt. Georgii Dorofeevich Yarovoy was KIA. At 10:52 local, 4 Yaks of 513 IAP (Capt. Malikov, Lt. Kovalenko, Lt. Astaskevich, Lt. Yarovoy) at 2000 m, while covering 264 ShAD IL-2s met 16 Fw 190. Downed during the 3rd attack by 4 Fw 190. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 3615389, ‘< ..’). Lost at Alsódabas-NE, 6 km. Gv.Ml.Lt. Vladimir Andreevich Ustich was injured. At 9:00 local, pair of recce. Yak-9s was checking the roads in the Hatvan-Budapest-Vác-Esztergom area. Near the city of Vác at 3500 m they met 6 Bf 109. First Ustich, then his wingman, Merzlenko claimed 1-1 Bf 109. Soon after this Ustich got minor hits into the fuselage. They headed for home, but while crossing the frontline, Ustich’s engine was hit by flak, his plane fell in the Alsódabas-NE area. Wingman Merzlenko returned home alone and landed safely. Ustich was picked up by own troops and was taken to hospital. Potential victory at 08:50. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 1229217, No.’12’). Lost at Pécel, Budapest-E. Gv.Lt. Sergei Grigorevich Yefimenkov MIA. At 15:15 local, 8 Yak-3 at 3000 m met 6 Bf 109 and 8 Fw 190. While covering his leader, he performed a frontal attack on one of the Bf 109s and was shot down. Fate unknown. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 3429214, No.’34’). Lost at Isaszeg, Budapest-E, Gv.Lt. Alexandr Nikolaevich Agdantsev went missing. At 13:42 local, between 2000-3500 m 8 Yaks covered their own troops and met 4 Bf 109. Agdantsev while protecting the first group of four was hit and bailed out with parachute. Downed by Gerhard Barkhorn (Stab.II/JG.52) at 13.40. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2315371). Landing accident. In a dogfight over Kóka, pneumatic/hydraulic system got damaged, at landing ran into a parking IL-2. Pilot, Gv.St.Lt. Grigorii Yakovlevich Bekkerman was unhurt, plane written off. 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP, 1st Sq., La-5FN (S/N: 39212952, No.‘52’) Crashed in a dogfight with Bf 109G fighters at Besenyszög-E, 3 km. Gv.St.Lt. Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov (famous fighter ace, Hero of Soviet Union) was KIA. 09:45-10:35 local, 5 (3+2) La-5, led by famous fighter ace, 2 x HSU, Gv.Capt. Kirill Alexeevich Evstigneev (3, La-5FN, ‘14’) and Gv.St.Lt. Petr Romanovich Setinin (2) in the Jászberény-Pusztamonostor-Jászárokszállás area. Combat with 12 Bf 109, 8 Fw 190. Over Pusztamonostor another 5(6) Bf 109 attacked and hit Zhigulenkov, who crashed at Besenyszög-E, 3 km. 5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-5F (S/N: 39214932, No.'32') Lost at Nagykáta at 14:00 local. 4 La-5, covering 9 IL-2 of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP in the Hatvan-Hort-Atkár-Csány area. Combat with 6 ‘Fw 190’ at Nagykáta-NE, 2-3 km at 2400 m. Ml.Lt. Vladimir Mihailovich Olnev was hit, injured, bailed out at 2000 m. On November 20, 1944 he returned to his unit without his plane. This day -according to their diary- the 188 GvSAP IL-2s in 40 missions dropped 26 FAB-100, 25 FAB-50, 56 AO-25, 1838 AO-2.5, 1084 PTAB (anti-tank) bombs, fired 89 RS-82 wing rockets, 4690 (23 mm) cannon-rounds, 7760 SKAS machine gun-rounds. 316: 17.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-10-DO Boston (S/N: 42-53956), lost at Ócsa, downed by Hungarian Bf 109G ace, Capt. Pottyondy László (102/2. Sq) at 14.30. Lt. Norayr Sumbatovich Danielyan was injured. Recce. flight over Budapest-S. Hungarian ace, Capt. Pottyondy this time flew in pair with Hartmann as his friend! The plane was delivered through the ‘ALSIB’ (Alaska-Siberia) route. 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-15-DO Boston (S/N: 42-54223), lost at Kevermes-S, 1 km in a ferry flight, mech. accident/fog. Pilot, Capt. Vasilii Kirillovich Yurchenko (1906-25.04.1945) was unhurt. 317: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 11:40 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 453: at 3.500m 318: -POTENTIAL VICTORY 22.11.1944 11:45 La-5 4./JG 52 98 452: at 4.500m 319: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Il-2 4./JG 52 - 320: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Il-2 4./JG 52 - 321: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Il-2 4./JG 52 - 322: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Yak-3 4./JG 52 – 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP La-5FN (S/N: 39211746, No.’46’), Downed in dogfight in the Hatvan-E area, pilot Kovrigin unhurt. 5 VA, 264 ShAD, 809 ShAP IL-2m3 (S/N: 1878785), downed by flak at Gyöngyöspata. Six 809 ShAP IL-2, covered by six 513 IAP Yak-9 attacked ground targets at Gyöngyöspata. During the 2nd strike Polunin’s engine started to smoke. Plane lost altitude and belly landed at Csány-NE, 7 km. Crew of Lt. Fedor Stepanovich Polunin - Kuptsov unhurt. Repaired, then lost again, -this time permanently- on March 20, 1945 between Kocs-Dad, Hungary with the Ml.Lt. Volosyankin crew in 5 VA, 264 ShAD, 451 ShAP. 323: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-3 4./JG 52 - 324: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 - 325: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 - 326: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 - 327: -POTENTIAL VICTORY? 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 – 3 Yak losses this day, and only 2 in the air, during mission! Hartmann’s details are unknown, but thus 3 Yaks for sure (and in his case probably more) had to be overclaim out of his 5 claims…!!! 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 32161). Take off accident. At 08:40 local, during take off Ml.Lt. Evgenii Semenovich Titov turned to the right and his right wing touched the ground. Plane broken, pilot unhurt. Plane written off without the engine as it remained in good condition and probably was reused later. Cannot be an aerial victory! 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 29156, or 45168), Ml.lt. Yakov A. Goychenko unhurt. At 10:38 local, 6 Yaks, covering 6 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Rózsaszentmárton (Rose-St. Martin) area met 6 Fw 190. 4 attacked the Yaks, 2 the ILs. Goychenko’s radiator got hit, force landed at Kál-S, 15 km. Plane not subject to repair, pilot unhurt. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 45168, or 29156), Ml.Lt. Pavel Petrovich Kuyanov MIA/KIA. At 10:38 local, 6 Yaks, covering 6 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Rózsaszentmárton (Rose-St. Martin) area met 6 ‘Fw 190’. 4 attacked the Yaks, 2 the IL-2s. (Note: Bf 109s and Fw 190s were very often misidentified by the soviet pilots, especially in the cloudy fall months and /or when Hungarian Bf 109s were present with different camouflage.) Kuyanov fell behind his formation and was brought down immediately. Plane fell and crashed in the target area. (Lipfert’s 158., ‘Yak-9’ victory at 10:40 at nearby Atkár! - confirmed) 328: -OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m 329: -OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m 5 VA, 279 IAD, 486 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39212724, No.’24’), lost at Ercsi, Budapest-S. Ml.Lt. Vladimir Grigorevich Snagovskii was MIA. At 11:55 local, recce. pair, led by Lt. Blinov vs. 6 ‘Fw 190’. Snagowskii was shot down and MIA. 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39211776, No.'76') Downed by flak, Ml.Lt. Nikolai Lukyanovich Vereshak was unhurt. (His next La-5FN was No.41210115) 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 3015336, No.'36') At 15:05 local at 2000 m, 4 Yaks covering 10 IL-2 in the Heréd area met 4 Bf 109. Received hit in the hydraulics system and belly-landed in the Pusztamonostor area. Plane broken, pilot, Lt. Georgii Alexandrovich Ulanov was slightly injured. The soviets gave air support to Gv.St.Lt. Dmitrii Fedorovich Loza’s 46 Guards Tank-Brigade, that was fighting in the Heréd-(Nagy)Kökényes area. This was the very first tank-battle, in which the new, 76 mm M4A2(76)W ’Shermans’ tasted battle and immediately suffered huge losses, as the Germans fired from covers and pushed the soviet tanks in a swampy area, where many sank and became just 'sitting duck' to the Germans. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9T (S/N: 1615383, No.'83') At 10:12 local, at 1500 m, 6 Yaks covering 10 IL-2 in the Erdőtarcsa area met 8 Bf 109. 4 Bf 109 turned agaisnt the Yaks, 4 against the ILs. Ml.Lt. Mihail Semenovich Yerko went missing. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 1529219, No.'15') Lost over Ercsi, Jewish Gv.Maj. Yezro Markovich Ravikovich, commander of 151 GvIAP was KIA. At 14:00 local, 8 Yaks (4 Yak-3, 4 Yak-1B), led by Gv.Maj. Ravikovich took off from Kecskemét to cover the Danube river crossings of soviet ground forces in the Ercsi area, south of Budapest. Large groups of enemy planes tried to attack and stop the crossing: Bf 109s, Fw 190s, then (~Rudel’s 10.(Pz)/SG.2) Ju 87G-2 Stukas, covered by Bf 109s, Fw 190s. Yak-3s of Gv.Maj. Yezro Markovich Ravikovich and Gv.St.Lt. Dmitrii Alexeevich Menshikov rolled over, and jumped on the first pair of the Fw 190s, then started to chase a Ju 87G-pair, downing one from each. Ravikovich went to 400-500 m, his wingman, Menshikov to 200 m and lost Ravikovich from his sight. This time they were attacking the Ju 87s. The other 6 Yaks were still busy fighting the enemy fighters South of Ercsi. It is believed, that Ravikovich was hit (either killed, or seriously wounded) in the return fire of the (~SG.2) Stukas. Total claims: 3 Fw 190, 2 Ju 87G, 1 Hs 129 (~14.(Pz)/SG.9). (Lt.Col. Borovoy, Maj. Gavrilin, Gv.Ml.Lt. Lyashin – ’Sword group’.) 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 20153) Lost near Szirák. At 11:00 local, 8 Yak-1, Yak-9, escorting 12 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Erdőtarcsa area. Over the target at 1500 m combat with 8 Bf 109. Ml.Lt. Ivan Arhipovich Guryev went missing. The IL-2s suffered no losses. 330: -OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m 331: -OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 2329218, No.’23’). Lost at his airfield (crashlanding) after recce. mission to Baracska area. Gv.Ml. Lt. Lev Gerasimovich Kamanyan was unhurt. At 14:50 local, at 1000 m 2 Yak-3 and 2 Yak-9 in the Baracska area met up to 20 Fw 190s, attacking the soviet first lines. While covering his leader, Kamanyan was hit. After return, during landing his engine gave up. Plane crashed, pilot unhurt. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2515361). Lost at Tiszanána. At 13:50 local, at 1500 m, 4 Yak-9 were escorting 6 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Csömör area. Over the target the plane was hit by flak and after return, crashlanded at Tiszanána. Plane broken, Sq. commander St.Lt. Vasilii Pavlovich Fedosov was unhurt. 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, (Omsk-built) Yak-9D (S/N: 19166063). At 13:20 they took off to protect IL-2s in the Veresegyháza area. During landing the soil was too soft and the plane nosed in. Pilot, Capt. Alexandr Kuzmich Fokin had bruises on his hands while protecting his face. 337 4.2.1945 - Yak-9 Stab I./JG 53 - OVERCLAIM? - in the Veszprém area This day the 17 VA (3rd Ukrainian Front), which was operating in the Veszprém - Székesfehérvár - Lake Balaton area lost: 1 A-20G-36-DO 'Boston' 2 IL-2 3 La-5FN, plus two 194 IAD La-5Fs written off (No.39215033, 39215251) as a result of PREV. DAYS'(!) actions. NO Yak loss this day in 17 VA!!! 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39215046, No.'46'), lost in the Sárkeresztes-W area at 16:00 local at 2000 m, 6 La-5s in combat with Bf 109s, flak. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Vladimir Zacharovich Voronov was MIA. 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39212754, No.'54'), lost in the Sárkeresztes-W area at 16:00 local at 2000 m, 6 La-5s in combat with Bf 109s, flak. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Boris Petrovich Lazarev was MIA. 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, 1st Sq. La-5FN (S/N: 39212113, No.’13’) Plane was lost in take-off accident at Kiskunlacháza. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Konstantin Ivanovich Kurenkov was KIFA. 5 VA (2nd Ukrainian Front) was focusing on the Budapest area. On February 4, 1945 they lost: 3 IL-2m3 (130 and 131 GvShAP) 2 La-5FN (92 IAP, 178 GvIAP) 1 La-7FN (179 GvIAP) 2 Yak-9 (31 GvIAP) Same list by cause: Flak: 1 IL-2, 2 La-5 Fighter: 1 IL-2, 1 Yak-9 Unknown (MIA): 1 IL-2, 1 Yak-9 (List missed the single La-7 loss, but it was due to flak. La-7FN (S/N: 45210566, No.’66’) hit by flak over Buda, disintegrated in air, while dive-bombing and strafing German defence positions. Gv.Ml.Lt. Lebedev was KIA.) 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP Yak-9, S/N: 1515321, lost at 12:50 local at 4500 m, while patrolling at Budapest-W, 5 km. 6 Yaks vs. 8 Bf 109 near Csepel-island, crashlanded at Rákoscsaba. Pilot, Gv.Lt. Ivan Andreevich Yangaev, injured, taken to field-hospital in Isaszeg. His leader, Vidanov was MIA. 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP Yak-9, S/N: 2015350, lost at 12:50 local. 6 Yak, supporting soviet troops in Buda, combat with Bf 109. Pilot, Gv.Ml.Lt. Petr Yakovlevich Vidanov was MIA. His wingman, Yangaev crashlanded and got injured. 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP La-5FN (S/N: 39213685, No.’85’) Gv.Lt. Igor Emelyanovich Sereda was hit by flak during a 2-plane recce. sortie in the Székesfehérvár area. Crashlanded at Rákospalota. 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP La-5FN (S/N: 39212054, No.’54’) at 13:25 local, at 1500 m, 4 La-5, escorting a pair of IL-2s in the Enying-Lake Velencei area. Combat with 14 Fw 190 and Bf 109, which were attacking the ILs from the sun. While defending the IL-2s, Ml.Lt. Mihail Pavlovich Dimakov’s La-5 was hit, crashlanded at his base. Without the details of Hartmann's late claims, it is very difficult to compare records, but no soviet fighter loss in the Veszprém area. 350: 17.4.1945 - Yak-9 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - Stab I./JG 52 - On April 17, 1945 the 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP lost a brand new Yak-9U fighter, the newest model of the Yak-9 family at that time, built in the Omsk-factory: 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, Yak-9U (S/N: 42166074), lost in a dogfight near Rapovice. Pilot, Gv.Capt. Egor Vasilevich Vasilevskii, (25+2 victories ace, HSU - Hero of Soviet Union) was unhurt. Between 18:00-18:30 local, he led his Yak flight against Bf 109s and Fw 190s and downed two of them. At the moment of his 2nd victory of the day, his plane was hit by (report says) flak. (But it could be fighter attack too from back, below.) He quit combat and returned to his side where he belly landed successfully. 5 VA, 3 GvIAK, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, 1st Sq. has written-off a Yak-1B (S/N: 29173) due to wear and tear. 5 VA, 279 IAD, 486 IAP, La-7FN (S/N: 45210925, No.’25’) was lost to flak. While escorting IL-2 Sturmoviks, plane was hit by small calibre flak and belly landed at Mutenice(?). Pilot, St.Lt. Constantin Pavlovich Burikinun was unhurt, plane repaired later. 352: -OVERCLAIM 8.5.1945 8:30-9:20 Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 Brünn (Brno) area: at 4000m 5 VA lost NO Yak(s) this day! (This day the 5 VA lost only 1 IL-2 (No.12854 from 90 GvShAP to flak), while No.12888 at the airbase was repaired and No.9884 was scrapped for spare parts.) No combat incident with German planes!!! The only event was a small damage to a Yak-3: 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, 1st Sq., Yak-3 (S/N: 4529235, No.'45') minor radiator damage that was repaired at the base in only 40 minutes after a safe, easy landing. As an addition, the 5 & 17 VA lost several planes on May 7(!), 1945 in Czech and Austria, but no Yaks were lost in the morning. On May 7, 1945 IL-2 Sturmoviks attacked the Miroslav and Znojmo (Brno-SW) area in Moravia in multiple waves throughout the day for the loss of several IL-2s. No Yak lost – just in case if the Germans messed up the days in their diaries. It is clear, that Brno and surrounding area was taken by the ground forces of the 2nd Ukrainian Front, covered by their 5th Air Army. Their events and losses are clear, - nothing matches Hartmann’s final claim in there. But for those, who are still wondering if Hartmann’s final Yak-9 perhaps belonged to the nearby soviet 2nd, or 8th Air Army, which were fighting north of Prague, Czech, Southern Poland and Eastern Germany… Due to their distance and op. area it was impossible, but let’s play with the idea: 8 VA (4th Ukrainian Front): Beside several 565, 637, 996 ShAP IL-2s and three (new generation) 571 ShAP IL-10 losses (No.1892604, 1890604, 1893203), the 8 VA lost a Yak-3 and a La-7FN this day, which could not be a match for Hartmann: 8 VA, 10 GvIAD, 112 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 0829227, No.’08’). Upon leaving the target between 08:00-08:50 local, this Yak-3 was lost in a mid-air collision with one of their escorted IL-2s at Olomouc-N, 7 km at 800 m. IL-2 pilot bailed out successfully, both planes went down and burned. Yak-3 pilot, Gv.Lt. Ilya Fedorovich Kuzin was KIFA. (6 Yak-3, led by Gv.Capt. Verenikin, including the pair of Raskoshnii-Kuzin escorted 8 IL-2s in the Olomouc area when the accident happened.) 8 VA, 10 GvIAD, 113 GvIAP, La-7FN (S/N: 45211829, No.’29’) Between 12:00-13:10 local, La-7 pair of Zhulidov-Polivenok was escorting 6 IL-2s in the Krzhelov area, when Gv.Ml.Lt. Mihail Fedorovich Polivenok was shot down by German flak. 2 VA (1st Ukrainian Front): 2 VA, 181 IAD, 53 IAP, Yak-9M, lost at Görlitz-NW, Germany to flak. (Approx. 240 km from Brno) Pilot, St.Lt. Petr Romanovich Korolev was KIA. 2 VA, 181 IAD, 355 IAP, Yak-9M, lost at Görlitz, Germany to flak. (Approx. 240 km from Brno) Pilot, Ml.Lt. Alexandr Dmitrievich Alifatev was KIA. The soviet 2nd Air Army also lost many IL-2s from the 621 and 948 ShAP to flak, but no combat with the Luftwaffe! Gabor ………………………………………………………………………………………................. ................... Note: meaning of the soviet fighter-serial numbers (La-5s, La-7s and Yak-3s were factory marked/numbered with their plane-in-the-batch number. Soviet records sometimes show only the ‘short version’ of the AC serials, missing the ‘irrelevant’ factory part): Yak-1B (from Saratov, Russia): yy-xxx Yak-3: 31-xx-yy yy-292-xx Yak-9: xx-153-yy xx-166-yyy La-5: 39-21-xx-yy 41-21-xx-yy La-7: 45-21-xx-yy Where: X = digits of batch no. Y = digits of plane no. within the batch 31 = Aircraft Factory No.31 (Tbilisi, Georgia) 41 = code of the metal wing La-5 fighter (Gorkii factory) 153 = Aircraft Factory No.153 (Novosibirsk, Russia) 166 = Aircraft Factory No.166 (Omsk, Russia) 292 = Aircraft Factory No.292 (Saratov, Russia) 21 = Aircraft Factory No.21 (Gorkii, Russia) 39 = code of the La-5 fighter (Gorkii factory) 45 = code of the La-7 fighter (Gorkii factory) |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Very interesting and impressive work Gabor - thanks for sharing this effort!
//Hĺkan |
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
Let's just hope the soviet data is correct/complete and losses not hidden/falsified/dropped off the books.
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