Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

[quote=Nick Beale;344928]

P.S. If you’re going to make interviewing veterans your entry criterion then Second World War research is over, or very soon will be.[ /QUOTE]

Max Hastings told me a few years ago when I met him that he thought it was. As he put it, '..imagining new revelations and insights from WW II is a disease...' I don't suppose for one minute that Taylor's book will be any different. The publisher's 'hype' is ridiculous.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

NICK BEALE,

Thanks for the new information about her sources, which, at least, as you said, do give her a lot of credit indeed. What she did with the information as you wrote, is another point.

And JOHN VASCO pointed out something that can not be changed. Historically, there seems to be an error as to the date she inform about the introduction or first JABO sorties, which Mr. VASCO informed and, do prove onto his book, that it was much earlier, since July....So, that's a negative point, in my view....it seems she neglected Historical data here, or wrote a piece of information that is not, Historically true (I mean the correct date).

Anyway, we can only judge, as Nick put in fair and honest words, just after reading it and pointing the errors, vis-a-vis what has been already published, officially (RAF, LW Documents) and non-officially (other reference books, like Zerstörer, the Battle of Britain then and Now, etc.)...and sincerely, as Human Beings, we all are suscetible to make mistakes, even a Miss with a PhD in History, or acknowleadgeable and published Historians.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Info about this book and author came to my eyes somewhat sooner this week. Therefor I started to read this discussion about sources, academic background etc. My basic question is: Does she speak German? Which is for me the basics, if I want to claim to present some unpublished, superb new materials etc.... or all the primary sources she claims to use, and as the info by some of you already mentioned, is mostly from UK and US sources (so already translated).... does this count?

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

My clear impression from the interview I listened to is that yes, she does. She certainly knows how to pronounce it.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I see what he means but equally he seems to have relied on Hinsley et al's Official History where ULTRA is concerned, which is not the same as actually reading the messages. After all, where else would you find this crucial insight from July 1940?

CX/JQ/119, para. 38.

On 6/7 Intendant of Luftflotte 3 gave out that on Sunday 7/7 the first load of early potatoes would arrive at Granville. (A)

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

From her website: "In recognition of her PhD research, she was awarded the 2020 Royal Air Force Museum Doctoral Academic Prize in 2021"

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

.. Okay, so she can write well, has done some reading around the subject, has dug out some obscure sources, knows German, can download a BA file and has no doubt produced a decent and interesting account..

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I would caution about pessimism now that the veterans have passed. There is a thriving American Civil War community of researchers in the United States. New books appear on a regular basis.
New material that is drawn from obscure sources or that includes previously unexamined material among them. Two print magazines are on the stands. I have no interest in this subject, but I point this out to say that
even though this was a much earlier event, research has not waned.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Chapter 1 read.

Covers the Luftwaffe in the 1930s, including the Spanish Civil War (not in great detail, just that they went there, and several raids are mentioned).

For anyone who has done a reasonable amount of reading on 1930s Luftwaffe, there is nothing new.

There will be some who think that I'm out to pour criticism on the work. I am not. I'm merely pointing out what I have read. I have made errors in my works, which I readily admit.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I concur.

I would say the same thing about the history of aviation during the Great War.

There are two very professional quarterly magazines continuing into 2025 with new articles being researched, written, produced, printed and distributed.
Cross & Cockade International and Over the Front.

(While several periodicals that have been mainstays of WW2 aviation history have recently been cratering or disappearing entirely)

Many aspects of WWII aviation history had been well established from 1914-1918. (cult of the ace, claims vs actual losses, fuel tank protection, pilot neuroses, bombing civilians, engine development etc).
I wish I could be more eloquent about this.

Cross & Cockade International
https://greatwaraviation.org/

Over the Front
https://www.overthefront.com/

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Personally I’m not pessimistic. I just accept that it’s documents and archaeology from now on.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Chapter 2 read.

Polish campaign with extracts from several letters.

If you know about the Polish campaign...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I'm not saying she has no business writing about the BoB. There's a myriad of other BoB titles in the pipeline no doubt: there'll almost certainly be books on the 90th and then the 100th, even the 150th anniversaries. What I am taking issue with is her publisher's claim of new insights, that her book is a 'must-read', that the material has not been exploited in this way before etc

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

As a working book editor, I can say that some publishers are honest in their descriptions, while others make use of what Americans call hype. Keep in mind that among specialists, such gross overstatements are obvious. Annoyingly so.
But the intended audience is the general public.

In Britain, the diaries and stories passed on encourage others to remind, and remind again, others of the victory achieved. To pass this on to new generations. In America, peerage does not exist. At one time, American children were taught
about their ancestors and relatives. I certainly was. That has waned over the last 40 years.

I must commend whoever came up with this book's title. Such things require a bit of thought. In this case, both the intellect and emotions need to be engaged. The specialist views such things through a different lens than the average buyer.
Those whose lived experience is far removed from the time need to be inspired as well as reminded about an important event in their nation's history that will live on forever.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Cannot disagree with anything you say in the above post, Ed.

Chapter 3 read.

'The phoney war' with extracts from several letters and quotes from various people.

Still not a single mention of the Battle of Britain...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

What about photos John Anything new and their source?

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Some new, general, ones. A couple of well-known 109 photos and a couple I had not seen before, and a well-known photo (to me) of aircrew with a 2./ZG 26 Bf 110 in the background.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Chapter 4 read.

Denmark and Norwegian campaign. For anyone who has read up on this north European campaign, I do not see anything new. The usual quotes from letters of completely unknown people writing home, with no connection to the BoB, and also from the odd aircrew and 'higher-ups'.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Chapter 5 read

The Western Campaign from 10th May.

Page 79: 'The Bf 110 Zerstörer (Destroyer) - a twin-engined fighter that had previously seen great success in Poland, Denmark and Norway - numbered around 350 at the beginning of Case Yellow; by the start of Dynamo, its units had lost more than 40 per cent of the operationally ready Bf 110s.'

So, 40% of 350 = 140 Bf 110s LOST.

The start of Case Yellow was 10th May; the start of 'Dynamo' was 26th May, so the pertinent dates are 10th May to 25th May.

The information I have regarding losses & damaged encompassing those two dates is as follows:
70 Bf 110s 100% write off
26 Bf 110s damaged but repairable
7 Bf 110s damaged state not known.

My loss/damage figures for Bf 110s from 10th May to 25th May include those in the far north of Europe, not involved in the Western Camapign.
Even allowing for a certain number being under service on 10th May (and therefore not 'combat-ready'), the statement of 40% losses is simply wrong. 140 Bf 110 losses, or thereabouts, is totally incorrect. The reference for this information is 'Ibid', and given there are copious entries in 'Further notes and References', I haven't a clue who she is referencing for this information.
What annoys me is that people will read this kind of thing and take it as 'gospel' because Dr. Taylor has written it.

In this chapter it's the same old same old. Quotes from unknown soldiers, the odd quote from aircrew. Battle of Britain? Don't be silly...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

John, thanks for the update, following with interest. Five chapters in already. Hopefully not a potential prelude to referencing the 'so-called' BoB.

Ed, thanks for your post #94, I appreciate your explanation and perspective...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

OKW figures of 12 October 1940 include for Zerstörer:

Serviceable 10 Aug: 375
Serviceable 10 Oct: 174
Paper establishment: 448
Net change: -201

These figures are attached to one of the Lagemeldung West daily reports at German Docs in Russia (TSAMO) but I neglected to note which one, and can I find the blasted thing again … ?

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

You're welcome.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I do hope someone posts a detailed review on Amazon. From what I've seen written here so far, this book needs correction so that readers have some idea. A large canon has been built up for the BoB.
It should be based on the facts, nothing more.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I will be doing that when I have finished the book...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

So, it is a book about the Battle of Britain and we are following up John Vasco, who is reading it and is at more or less 33% or half of the book (do not remember by heart how many chapters we're talking of), and we have not started the Battle of Britain yet? That's really interesting.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Adriano, exactly what I was going to write. One can, in condensed form, describe the situation of those already mentioend 5 chapters in a one few pages long chapter, and with no harm to the subject given by the title, and then work with those new sensational info that had been proclaimed this book should bring to reader. John, fingers crosee to have a nerves to follow other chapters ;) I believe when it comes to details, it will be a painItA for someone knowing as much about BoB as you ;)

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Chapter 6 read

Covers the period following the Dunkirk evacuation and the German's push southwards in June 1940. Not a lot of detail about the combat, but quotes from a Stabsfeldwebel with the Luftwaffe Transport column 9/VII (page 94), and a soldat in a Luftwaffe supplies unit in Berlin (page 100). Below is a scan of page 98. Anyone interested in the work of Professor Franz Büchner? He specialised in hypoxia, don'tcha know! Directly relevant to the BoB? Put yer oxygen mask on and it don't happen! Still nothing about the BoB, and the end of that chapter takes me to page 106.https://i.imgur.com/WZrYLfB.jpg

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Good advice, however …

CX/JQ/251, para. 12: It was learned on 25/8 that one Mansfeld urgently required a breathing mask of the old type for himself, as the new type of mask did not fit. He asked for a mask of every size to be sent for him to try on. The matter was urgent, as he could not fly until he had got the mask.
(NB — Oblt. Mansfeld is connected with KGr. 100)

As for Mahlke …

CX/JQ/100, para. 33: Hauptmann Mahlke of Stuka Group 186 was reported on 30/6 to have been selected for command of a Stuka Group.

And Fliegerkorps VIII's secret move …

CX/JQ/99, para. 35: Learnt at noon on 30/6 that Fliegerkorps VIII had ordered Stab z.b.V. 16 to move some unspecified units immediately. There is to be absolute W/T silence. HQ to remain at Pont until morning of 1/7.

CX/JQ/100, para. 16: The signals section of Stuka 77 was changing position after noon on 30/6/1200.

CX/JQ/115, para. 14: There is some reason to believe that the HQ of Fliegerkorps VIII is now at Caen.

CX/JQ/118 para. 6: On 7/7/40 the 2nd Ground Staff Company of St.G. 76 was at Ouilly le Tesson (7 km. N.W. of Falaise).

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I was under the impression that for masks, 'one size fits all', Nick!

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

You’d have to take that up with Oblt. Mansfeld but apparently not! The request was put in more than once, and it seems there were old and new types of mask in contention. KGr. 100 had a particular problem as they needed to stay at high altitude to pick up the guidance beams when marking more northerly targets. One mask failure would abort the sortie.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Thanks for that explanation, Nick.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Chapter 7 read

Early July 1940. Mention of the plans for continuing the war against Britain. Quotes from newspapers like the 'Baruther Anzieger' and 'Briesetal-Bote'. Something from a Luftwaffe soldier based with an airbase company in Quedlingburg. Quotes from residents in Wesseln, near Liel, and Uelzen (page 118). 'A flieger attached to the Luftwaffe Guard Command at Tessenow, Mecklenburg wrote'. These are the things that are in chapter 7. Chapter 7 ends on page 121...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

... still have yet to see a copy of Ms Taylor's book in a bookshop. I was in Folkestone - prime BoB location if ever there was one. No sign of it in Waterstones. At the counter though they offered to order a copy in so that I could look at it. No obligation to buy. Which I thought was pretty decent of them. I would expect that the Museum in Hawkinge has a copy...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I was googling her previous works, and found out this is the first book. And already such an excitement...were her articles so very readable?

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

I think that Ms Taylor should write more books. It is a long time since we have had such a long conversation about one book that most have not even read.
Carsten

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Carsten, I believe this is a milestone too, but in a broader sense and aspect. When the OLD EAGLES like John Vasco, Chris Goss, Nick Beale, Christer Bergström, J-L Roba, J-Y Lorant, Dilip Sarkar, Erick Monbeeck and others like them, who HAD direct access to the RAF, LW and WW2 aircrew veterans will make their "last landing" (and I do hope they will reach 100+ like some Bomber Command and LW veterans, so we can enjoy reading more from them); who is gonna take the flame and toch? This Miss, even with her PhD and other Academical tittles seems to have not matched the "Old" standard, as far as I have read here...so we are talking about the futur of Aeronautical and Military Aviation Publication (and research)....and for me this is the "face" of the new Generation, although we have seen some FANTASTIC and "outside the curve" writers and researchers, like OLROG, BREKKEN, KJETIL, some French writers....so I see a good futur in the hands of those who will take care of, and inherit the "flame" and tradition of the old eagles (Bowman, Middlebrook, Bolitho, etc.) and those who are still on the "circuit", but not so young....

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

:);)

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

she appears to have acquired a lot of support from a certain group of senior male 'influencers', Holland, Murray etc...

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

You can read her thesis on the Dams Raid online and her piece on the NSFK in Axis Wings No. 1, then judge for yourself.

Re: Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
 

Alfred Price had a PhD in history, were you as dismissive of that? To get a doctorate you have to do a lot of work researching primary sources and surely that deserves some recognition.

I think that where the James Hollands and Victoria Taylors of this world differ from most us here is that they are trying to make a living as professional historians and that necessitates self-promotion.