Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Nemo,

It's interesting that you have just decided to start posting for this topic (7 now). You've never graced us with a question or anything intelligent to say in the past.
Now all of a sudden it's the great ebay conspiracy and your lack of funds.
Perhaps a better job would give you the ability to buy pics in todays market.

Regards,
Mike

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Mike,

why are you offending Nemo? It's absolutely OK that he starts
with this thread because I think that there are some dozen
of collectors and researchers who would say the same but they
don't have the heart to state here their own opinion. So I think
the opinion of Nemo is absolutely OK and essential here!
Sometimes it's better to hide his real name behind a nickname
because as a Luftwaffe insider you should know that there are
many jealous people who begrudge photos, complete collections,
publishing work and so on. If all people which agree with Nemo
would state here you would be amazed!
And people which are not concerned because the don't buy
high price photos should better stay away here... We don't
speak about peanuts. An other member of this board told some
weeks ago that it makes no sense to prepare a new book or
magazine without some funds. Mike, you are one of the first
detractors who finds fault with new publications without new and
former unpublished photos - and that's absolutely OK.
But please allow some other people who are willing to start new
projects that they have some problems with the actual system -
let's call it photo mafia :)
Or do you want that in 10 years only well known photos are
published again and again or that every researcher and editor
has to ask sudek's archive for some new photos? Do you want this?

Regards,
Günter.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Hello all!

At first, a BIG thank you, Ed, for posting these links! They are among the most interesting topics on this board – especially as they are mostly followed by further information.

I have no knowledge concerning the ways other bidders find their “objects of desire”. And as I have neither the money to start bidding (books are expensive enough) nor the time to find out myself how to find all those items on e-bay, I can only assume, that there are other ways than Ed´s postings.

Therefore the following are my assumptions – please feel free to correct me, if I am wrong!

1. As stated before on this board, it seems that “sudek13” and others have other ways to find items on e-bay. In my opinion they don´t rely (totally) on Ed´s postings. If someone has the funds to spend such (enormous) sums on certain items and the willingness to do so, he (she/they) will shurely be able to find other ways to “make his homework” and find these items. Therfore I can´t imagine how stopping those postings can affect their bids. Of course I may be wrong or there may be exceptions.
I don´t think (and I don´t hope, too!) that Ed´s posts have any consequences on the number and the quality of published photos – BUT this is only my opinion.


2. If Ed stops posting altogether, a lot of people won´t see the photos at all. I personally doubt that it is possible to post all of them after the auctions are closed. Unless someone works out another way to show those photos to a greater audience, this leaves two alternatives:
- restricted access to those photos or
- complaints on high bids.
As I stated, I have no interest in buying myself (perhaps that should make me back off this topic?). My interest lies in having the possibility to have a look on low-resolution-scans and read the related information of other members. I will be not personally affected by higher prices. Therefore my point of view is to encourage Ed to continue.

BUT: Ed alone is responsible for his posts – and he alone makes the decision to continue posting or not. We have to respect that, even if we may not share his opinion (who knows what complaints he has got?).

Therefore I am glad, that he started again.

3. Some members have other views. Even if I am happy with Ed´s decision, I respect their views. I think it´s neither fair nor helpful to get into a heated debate.

Excuse me, if I may use the wrong terms – not beeing a native speaker makes it difficult to express one´s thougts correctly.

Greetings

Ralph Zimmer

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

kormoran,

I agree it's OK for Nemo to state his views on here; what I don't accept is that he makes assumptions about an individual which are totally incorrect. He has no right to do that in the first place.

And I don't agree that sometimes it is better to hide his real name behind a nickname. Why? I don't. Chris Goss doesn't. Jochen Prien doesn't. Peter Cornwell doesn't. Does he hide his name so he can snipe at others with anonimity? Only he can answer that, I suppose.

And on another matter, of course there is always an expense in researching/writing a book. I do not know of a photo 'mafia'. I know only of those who are not prepared to share photos and information, and others who are willing to assist others in any way they can. Help to others goes beyond photos. It includes information that may have been gathered years ago and never put to use, but which can be used by someone else in their project. In the main, that is how the Luftwaffe research fraternity operates. It does NOT need individuals coming on here and criticising people regarding the bidding conduct on e-bay items, or claiming that there is some kind of conspiracy going on. When that happens, genuine researchers who, in the normal course of events are prepared to be helpful, will probably think 'forget about it' and no longer invest time and experience in helping others. That would be sad for those seeking assistance for their own future projects.

And high prices for photos? Peanuts? The amounts are peanuts relative to what other things cost. I mentioned previously the multi-million cost of works of art by the likes of van Gogh and his ilk, and on a subject dear to my heart, $250K for a chunk of wood metal and plastic because it was made by Gibson between 1958-1960. In fact the famous blues guitarist Peter Green's old 1959 Gibson Les Paul recently sold for $2 Million, I kid thee not. It's all relative. In that context, the cost of e-bay photos doesn't even qualify to join the pissing contest.

Unfortunately, your last paragraph implies that sudek's archive will be the only repository of photos eventually. Well, the ECPA, BAMA (orwhatever it is called nowadays), the National Archive in Kew, the Imperial War Museum, Smithsonian Institution, and other archives around the world may have some say in that.

And finally, Ralph, you did just fine in expressing your views so well.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

John,

I don't want to argue with you but I think some of your arguments are
nonsense! As I sayed before you can't compare apples with oranges.
I don't know if anybody here is interested in a Gibson Les Paul. I would
collect warbirds I would have enough money. The original is better as
an photo of paper ;)
But we speak about book projects. Let's think about the following:
I plan to make a new book about Bf 109, maybe we both together.
We have no friends, we both are enthusiast but we have no great collection
and not enough money. We would need 150-200 unpublished photos!
500-1000 each at ebay because we have to outbid sudek.
75000-200000 only for buying photos. Great! I guess we have to pass.
And art of van Gogh? Yes, but I don't know so many collectors who
spend millions to have arts like van Goghs. By the way - sudek is
collecting art and supports some museums...
You mentioned some researchers. Why don't they tell these people their
opinion? I think you are the only one here. Some researchers benefit
from sudek, some not. The first group don't want to admit, the second
don't want to attack sudek, his team, his followers. We would have the
big bang here. Please remember my words about envy and distrust.
No researcher would tell us about his connections to sudek's team because
most enthusiast and former supporters would be very angry with them.

And by the way, i think the best material of the museums and archives
you've mentioned are still published. So I think, a new Luftwaffe
enthusiast will have no good chance. And if you have a look hat series
of today (I don't want to name them) - most photos are well known.
Such well "researched" publications are absolutely worthless.

Regards,
Günter.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

I'm disappointed by the harsh words being used over this. To what end? There are no normal prices. Luftwaffe photos are not commodities like petrol or butter. They are one of a kind (except for copies made at the time, apparently to give to comrades).

eBay is not a retail store. At any given time, no one knows who's looking, and based on my personal experience, counter numbers go up and down. I suspect, but cannot prove, that aside from a dedicated core that looks daily, most others look when they can. I have no idea where these photos end up and I cannot afford all the books coming out.

As far as changing my mind, continually, that is a false statement. Some do not need my postings, apparently others want them. On occasion, I do review the issue from the standpoint of fairness.

Some people have a great deal of money, most people I know do not. I can't change that. To quote Mick Jagger: "You can't always get what you want."

I would also encourage an optimistic attitude. On the few occasions that I do bid on eBay (always for non-Luftwaffe items), my first thought is not that I'm going to beat out the 'little guy.' So this is a money issue, not a morale issue. The rules of the auction are clear on that. High bidder wins.




Regards,
Ed

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

OK, guys, let's calm down a little. Ed West is stating the most "common-sense" approach, so if you want to argue, that's OK, but keep it civil. Besides bitching, there's not a damn thing you can do about E-Bay, anyway, except grin and bear it, or, do not go there.

Ed does us a tremendous favor by doing his sleuthing. I've seen some things I never expected to see. Just be thankful. If you want to change the world, buy stock in E-Bay.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Hi

All you have to do is to go to google, type in ww.ebay.de then flugzeug in the box, click on Militaria and then 1918-45 and you can do just what Ed West does and for my money anyone else that wants to bid for photos does this anyway.

Tony

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Thanks, Kormoran, you perfectly expressed my mind. For the past three-four years, we could have waited to see tons of new books with inedite pictures with the Ebay system making now lot of old material available, but in the end what we see is that the best pics fall in a hole and are not to be seen to the public of the enthusiasts. What will happen to these pics in the long term is also completely unsure. Of course, it would not be worrying, if a "de facto" mysterious monopole was not being built. And you're right also,Kormoran, about the book projects: for instance, today it is simply impossible with this system to prepare a new book on the 109, not only for the private researchers, but also for most of the aviation publishing houses, which are usually small structures with low budgets.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

By the way, if it's only for research, it's perfectly possible to discuss Ebay pics, like on the Axis History Forum, without easing too much the easy life of the "big pockets" guys: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...3596&start=900

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Ok guys,
have you noticed, that since this thread got out of control, Ed did not post a single picture? Is this, what some people want? Think it over and calm down, perhaps Ed will continue posting then.
It would be a pity, if this thread is the reason for not posting any longer, and I could understand Ed, if this is so.

Regards
Robert

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Günter,

Your latest post to me merits a reply. I made mention of 58-60 Les Pauls and van Gogh paintings to illustrate the relative pricing of items in this world, from a few hundred $s for a photo, to quite a few hundred thousand $ for a rare guitar, to many millions of $ for a van Gogh. That was all. Perhaps you did not understand this. To say my arguments are nonsense is not correct.

Your scenario about writing a book with 150 to 200 unpublished photos is quite correct. It applies to all authors nowadays. The reason is quite simple, and I will explain it to you. In the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s researchers/authors had the opportunity to meet and interview a lot of the WW2 veterans, and also get copies of their photos. That's how a lot of research came to be done, and resulted in a lot of books that are known today. Those researchers were lucky to be able to do so, and I count myself as one of those lucky ones. Nowadays a lot of the veterans have died, and the chance to do the kind of research done decades ago has now gone. Speaking for myself, my publishers have wanted a mix of old and new, and so I was able to provide what they wanted. Had they said: "All new, previously unpublished photos", I would have had to say to them: "No chance". That is a fact, and I do understand the plight that new researchers find themselves in. I don't believe it is caused by the present situation we find on e-bay, but rather it is down to the passing of so many of those who could provide first-hand information and photos. And don't forget, there were a lot of veterans who were never found by researchers, so their information/photos were never tapped into. Others were found, and declined to help. I had personal experience of that with 3 former flying members of Erprobungsgruppe 210, which was very disappointing to say the least.

With regard to the reserachers names I mentioned, I did so to illustrate that they post under their real name, not a nom-de-plume. Nothing more complicated than that. I was not asking them to speak up on my behalf at all, or to air their views on this thread.

You are probably right in saying that most, if not all, the best stuff from institutions are now out in books. But the fact that a photo is published in more than one book does not necessarily diminish the value of that book, if that photo is directly relevant to the text, or the theme of the book.

Regarding your last sentence, maybe you could tell us what these 'absolutely worthless' publications are?

John Vasco

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Seems like we have a couple of junior members here who are in need of some schooling in basic economics. What Mr. Vasco has been so patiently trying to describe is otherwise referred to as supply and demand. The price of an item (any item in theory) will be determined by the demand for that item, i.e. what the consumer is willing to pay.

I would also take issue with the "absolutely worthless" publications comment. Geez Louise - if you think you're going to pick up a $10 Squadron/Signal publication and expect to get cutting edge research, I wanna drink what your drinking. You get what you pay for guys. You want rehashed photos - were you guys around in the 70s and 80s? The last 10-15 years has been a 'golden age' for WWII aviation. Many authors, including Mr. Vasco, have published some astonishing, all-new material, most of which could have only been dreamed of 15 or more years ago.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Gentlemen,

what I don't like on some boards and I am seeing it on this board too are personal attacks on other members.

Where is the old fassioned courtisy ?

When you disagree with another member you can bluntly call him a liar but you can also have the courtisy to state that you disagree with his comments.

John Vasco is a well respected reasearcher and author and I agree with John that hiding behind an alias and bluntly stating that he is part of some conspiricy and by that he is able to access material that is unaccessible to others is such a (to me) unacceptable statement on an open board without presenting any proof of that.

I am one of the moderators on the AWF board and I will not allow such personal attacks on that board !

Everyone is entitled to express his own opinion as long as he expresses it in a civilised manner.

Now back to the basics of what started this discussion.

I am one of the active buyers of photo's on Ebay and in many times one of the high-bidders.

Do the postings of Ed West in any way influance the outcomes of the auctions ! To my opinion the postings of Ed make no difference at all !!!

I stated before I am retired and have the time to look through every auction on Ebay and be sure that big buyers such as Sudek13 with all his helpers will also have the same opportunity.

What makes a diference with Ed's postings is that many of you don't have the time to search for every photo on Ebay every day and that's where his postings are of help to many of you.

As an active buyer of photo's on Ebay I don't like it either that people with unlimited funds are in the arena today, but lot's of interesting photo's will still be obtainable, because Sudek13 doesn't buy all the photo's that are up for sale and in the end it all comes up to be able to recognise what is special and what is not.

Regards,
Jan

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Courtesy is never old-fashioned. And it tries my patience to see many internet forums that contain people of the whiny and nasty sort. Freedom does not include treating your fellow man or woman worse than you would like yourself to be treated.



Ed

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Hello John,

I won't tell on this board which publications I've meant because
some authors and researchers are on this board too and they would
have some problems which my opinion. And I don't want to offend
these guys.

Jan, I thought you started a similar discussion some months ago,
you can find the thread here. The originally discussion was on LEMB.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=6372

But you've retracted your opinion later because of the hostillities of
other people. Now it's the same with Nemo and me, some people don't
understand what we want to say or say don't want. That's why I say
that sometimes it's better to hide the real name.
How do you feel about this: a well known authors is hiding his real name
behind a nickname here to get no later problems. You all own his books
and know his creditable work. Now he tells us his real thoughts in this
thread which he never could recognize under his real name.
Only a thought but possible. I only want to tell you that sometimes it's
necessary to keep the anonymity...

Regards Günter.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Well, I'll tell you what offended me: your comment that 'if you have a look at series of today (I don't want to name them) - most photos are well known. Such well "researched" publications are absolutely worthless.'

The implication of that (and I hope I'm wrong) seems to be that pictures matter and words don't. Have you any idea of the effort it takes research and put together a narrative of 30,000 words (e.g. the Classic Colours softbacks), let alone 85,000 (a 256-page hardback in large format)?

I'd recommend judging books on whether they contain new information, not just new pictures. As far as I'm concerned a book should tell you something you didn't previously know or put forward a new argument - and that can be done with or without new photos. Believe or not, a book could be well researched and have genuine worth even if it didn't include a single illustration.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

kormoran,

"...a well known authors is hiding his real name behind a nickname here to get no later problems. You all own his books and know his creditable work. Now he tells us his real thoughts in this thread which he never could recognize under his real name..." If this is the actual case, then I call bullshit on it. Whatever is wrong with an author holding a different view to other people? If he believes Ed is wrong to post current auctions, fair enough. Nobody on here should think any the less of him for his personal viewpoint. However, if he is hiding behind a nom-de-plume and hurling insults at people, (as has happened in earlier posts in this thread) then he is a prick. And I would tell him on this board, or to his face, even if it was someone I had known for years.

"...I only want to tell you that sometimes it's necessary to keep the anonymity..." So tell us when those times are. If a person wants to make valid points, or advance a sensible argument, then there is no need for anonimity. In a lot of cases, anonimity is the refuge of the internet troll, or someone who wants to bad-mouth someone else without anyone knowing who they are. In such circumstances, they are a Grade-1 shithouse. Period.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Nick,

I see you don't understand me. OK, I would never say
something against well researched books. And you are right,
the texts are important or more important than the pics.
But who buys a well researched book without great photos?
Better, former unpublished photos! The first question is always:
"Are there any new photos of..." You can find masses of
examples at TOCH! And because lots of publishers try to make
a fast buck you have to choose carefully which new publication
you want to buy and which not. Enthusiasts with small pockets
can't spend so much for their hobby.
So you have to look for interesting contents - texts and photos.
Because lots of actual publications rehash well known
photos and facts again and again - often in real poor quality -
these books, series and magazines are absolutely worthless.
Who needs the 196th book about German fighters with
90% Bundesarchiv photos for example? You not and me
also not. That's it!

And John, yes I know, but you are not the one and only at this board...

Günter.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

kormoran,

I don't know who you are, I don't know how long you have been interested in aviation/the Luftwaffe, I don't know whether you have ever written anything for publication in your life. So, I do not know how much knowledge you have of the publishing world. If you already know what I am going to write next, all well and good, but it may be of some interest to others who may not be aware of it.

There are several levels of readers in any specialist field, and the Luftwaffe is no exception. So, you would not expect someone new to the subject of the Luftwaffe to buy Ken Merrick's two recent volumes - the depth of explanation would almost certainly be above their heads. However, something like the Classic series of softbacks, or the Kagero series, would lead them into the subject quite well, and would also appeal to those with greater knowledge of matters Luftwaffe. Those softback books contain some photos that are are well known to the experienced Luftwaffe reader, but will be new to the novice. The point I make is that publishers have to appeal to a broad spectrum of readers, not just those already well versed on the subject. Using previously published photos goes with the territory. To be able to ALWAYS publish previously unpublished photos is a dream, not reality.

"...But who buys a well researched book without great photos?..." I'll tell you who. All those in their thousands, myself included, who got a copy of Stephen Bungay's 'The Most Dangerous Enemy' for starters. In my opinion, the best book ever written on the Battle of Britain.

And finally, perhaps you can tell me what this means exactly, because for the life of me I haven't got a clue: "...but you are not the one and only at this board..." When it suits you, you don't answer my points, but just come out with a further obtuse comment.

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Quite right.

It isnt. So thank you

you only post here what is out there and condense it.

so please go on

Snautzer

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

I will continue.



Thanks,
Ed

Re: Change to Ed West's posting schedule
 

Ed...

I think it's clear from the majority of the comments that your time and effort is much appreciated. I sincerely hope you will indeed continue your valuable work for all to enjoy and benefit from. You provide an unrivalled service to us all and it would be a truly sad day were that to end. Keep up the good work... :)

Regards