Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

After some research in the Macr database I come up with 10 474th P-38's lost on 25 August.. but I have determined that there are 2 mi9ssing MACR's for the 355th so we know it is not 100% reliable, so it could be 11 as you say or a 38 went down after the encounter and was 'not missing' per se.

Still 13 for the 1st FG on June 10 seems to be number 1 on the USAAF bad day for one group if all were due to fighters (probable)... and maybe 20 for combined 82/1 FG might be overall 'worst day' air to air for the USAAF in war for one general combat engagement in any theatre.

It would also reflect the overall consistent quality of Luftwaffe in the Balkans in a time when most of the Luftwaffe leaders had been lost fighting the 8th AF in October 43-May 1944 timeframe... strictly speculation..

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Bill
Sturmbocks are heavilly armoured and armed Fw 190As to combat B-17/B-24 boxes.
A very bad day for 4 FG was also 6 June 1944. They lost that day at least 10 aircraft.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

term : Sturmbock.
Franek was a bit faster .
thanks :)

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Franek - the 4th lost a total of 7 air to air (4 confirmed, 3 probable) of the 10 total lost on 6 June 1944.

One of the probable air losses (McFarlin) was 339FG Mustang flying with 4th and with two other 4th Pilots lost to unknown causes - but conceivably air combat - two hours after the 4 Blue Flight Mustangs were destroyed. to raise the total to 7 in two separate battles. The 4th did not shoot down any that day - so it was totally one sided in favor of Luftwaffe.

Oscar Lejeunesse was shot down by flak near the Normandy beach - POW and Harold Fredericks was shot down by flak near Evreux - both around 1445 hours.

Thomas Fraser unknown causes around 0642 hours after recieving vector to Debden in heavy weather. Could have been air, could have spun in

Garbey, McGrattan, Ross, Smith were the Blue Flight wiped out by German fighters at 1840 hours in one single pass.

McFarlin (339FG flying with 4th), Sobanski and Steppe all KIA near Dreux at 2035 hours - all unknown causes but presumably air even though McFarlin was heard to say he had a bad magneto and on the way home around 2000 hours.

So, the facts are a total of 4 air absolutely sure at 1840, 3 probable air losses two hours later, two losses to flak at 1445 and one unknown in very bad weather at 0642 about summed up a very bad day for the 4th.

So - Of the 10 (maximum) Lost, two were absolutely flak and possibly 8/ probably seven/ and 4 absolutely were shot down by German fighters.. such is the difficulty in researching such events on both sides.

It would be interesting to see what claims were made for the 0600-0700 timeframe for the Luftwaffe near the Normandy beachhead to account for Fraser.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

According to Mr Clark's data, aside from a 0510 claim for Lancasters, there were no Luftwaffe claims prior to 0930, probably Cox of 430 Squadron.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

I counted in your list 14 (not 13) P-38s lost by the 1st F.G. and 7 by the 82nd F.G. However, I know of 24 P-38s lost that day over Rumania/Bulgaria.
Are all MACRs listed? Could some losses not be covered by MACR?

For sure, 9 P-38s were lost by the badly mauled 71st F.S. alone (based on the squadron's combat diary). I am wondering if all these 9 Lightnings are included in your table. Can you check it, please?

According to my information, German & Rumanian fighters and flak initially claimed a total of 51 enemy aircraft. This was later on reduced to 18 P-38s downed by fighters and 7 by flak.

BTW, I described this eventful day in my book on the Rumanian Aces, published by Osprey in 2003 (p. 48-50).

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Connected to the air battles of June 10, 1944 is this photos taken in Rumania, that depicts the wrecks of a P-38, No. 32.
Can this Lightning be identified?
Could it be P-38, Bu.No. 43-28732, of the 1st F.G.? If yes, who was the pilot?

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2710/14zq1.jpg

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Denes - you have proved that I can not count. You are correct - it is 14 1st FG P-38's downed that day.

I do not have the physical MARC's except for the 355th and quite a few from the 4th. The MARC you need for 43-28732 is No. 5762. It is possible that you could get details for this MARC and the rest on that list from USAF HRC at Maxwell Field, Alabama.

As to whether or not, that total number of 21 Missing Aircrew Reports represents all of the lost P-38's of the 82nd and the 1st, the answer is not necessarily. Possibilities for NOT preparing a MARC are usually because the subject is not MISSING - an example could be going down in the Med on the way back - a circumstance in which the aircraft was truly destroyed but the location of the pilot was not behind enemy lines.

I have several examples for the 355th in which an a/c was lost FG but serial numbers were found in Accident reports (like a mid air collision) or a mid channel ditching when no ememy fire was probable cause.

There was no MARC prepared for my father's Mustang when he was shot down by Flak on August 18, 1944 because he was rescued by Priest in another Mustang - hence not "Missing". The lost Mustang was recorded as a battle loss for the 355th FG.

The MARC to the best of my knowledge represents the record of choice for Combat losses of the USAAF.

Still that leaves you with a 4 ship gap and it would be unusual to say the least to have that many 'accidents' versus destroyed or missing by enemy action.

Still it is possible that MARC's were not done

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Kolya1, I recommand you to read "Focke-Wulf FW 190 in North Africa", the authors provided a very detail day-by-day account about the air war over North Africa related to FW 190 units, and yes, authors use both Allied and Luftwaffe records,it looks like II/JG2 submitted some very wild overclaims in that time period, it was strange, because the same units's claims in Western Europe were basically way more accurate.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Interesting thread.

Some other dates to look at would be the actions of the US P-38 units in the MTO at the end of August/early Sept 1943. They fought a couple of sharp actions over southern Italy against gruppen from JG53 and JG77 and lost a number of a/c.

The 4th FG action on 18 August 1944 was costly, but they claimed 7 ME109s; IIRC the reported LW losses were actually higher.

For the most lopsided engagement in favor of the LW what about the II/JG26 bounce of 56FG on 26 June 1943?